Frontier pulling the plug in DEN?

[SWA Bubba]

Frankly I think F9 is far better off without SWA. I did hear rumors that there was talk among JetBlue and F9 prior to Republic but JetBlue did not like the numbers on their balance sheet.

I don't know anything about JetBlue's deliberations with Frontier, but if you think you're better off, then I'm happy for you.

Based on SWA's predatory history with Morris and ATA I would think F9 would have seen a similar fate. The reason why Southwest did not do the same to AirTran is because they had quite a few 737s and orders for more and could not staff them on their own.

I think you need to do a little more reading of history, before you throw around words like "predatory." Morris and ATA were way different from each other, and different from Frontier. June Morris wanted to sell her little airline to Southwest, did so, and then joined our board. Every Morris pilot was assimilated into Southwest. ATA got loans and investment from Southwest during BK, but then later folded itself after losing its governmental charter contract. Southwest then outbid other companies for assets that the BK court sold to pay creditors. Nobody else wanted to buy the company intact and take the employees.

I highly doubt Southwest would've put the Airbus is into service. They would have sold F9 in pieces, got rid of the airplanes and thrown the pilots on the street with preferential interviews. That my friends is the Southwest way.

You're correct that Southwest had no plans to put the Airbus into service, at least under Southwest colors. They would have been drawn down to nothing as more 737's were acquired to replace them.

Your last paragraph, however is crap. Management would have raised their bid to buy F9 out of bankruptcy above Republic's if the two pilots' unions had come to an agreement; in fact the first offer was specifically contingent on exactly that. Since there was no such agreement (they only had a few days to do it), GK declined to up his offer, and in fact, his original offer was actually void without a pilots' agreement.

Stemmler insisted on four things during the very short negotiations: pay protection, domicile protection, furlough protection, and seat protection. SWAPA offered, with management's concurrence, the first three, but not seat protection. That means that Southwest agreed to put in writing that NO Frontier pilot would have been furloughed, NO Frontier pilot would have been displaced from Denver, and NO Frontier pilot would have lost money, even a maxed out F9 Captain displaced back to F/O.

If you guys are happier the way things went, and the path ultimately chosen for you, the good for you; I'm glad you got what you want. But I read that Stemmler went back to a hero's welcome, claiming that he had "prevented Southwest from furloughing 20% or more of the pilot group." That's complete crap, and if you need a revisionist's history to be happy, then maybe you didn't get the good deal you thought you did.

Bubba

 

[PGTB]

What's your evidence for your claim PGTB? I'd like to see you back that up.

http://www.9news.com/story/news/2015/01/19/frontier-low-cost-merger/21997107/

You can only jump around into new markets, and then leave, so many times. Choosing Republic over SW was a near fatal flaw that can only be remedied with a merger.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Here are some numbers for everyone to understand what is going on at Frontier. 1 1/2 years ago we had 630 pilots. Today we have over 800. There were classes of 25 in Nov, Dec, and Jan. The rumor is another 240 pilots hired this coming year. We only have 52 airplanes and signed an order for 9 321s to be delivered late this year into early next year.
Management came to the training dept last Fall and said "we want to hire x amount of pilots." Our head of training said he didn't have the resources to train that many pilots and told them what he needed. And they gave it to him.
We have pilots in sim training in Den, SFO, LAS, and MIA. They are even considering sending pilots to France for sim training.
We are shrinking our DEN flying simply because it doesn't make sense to have 80% of our business in 1 city. We are dropping the low yield connecting DEN traffic and focusing on more profitable point to point flying.

Let's be clear with 1 more thing. The bankruptcy judge dropped SWA offer to buy Frontier. The idea that an MEC chairman can break up a potential deal is delusional.

I'm glad you're happy, and I'm especially glad that you're doing well and still growing. However, your last paragraph is wrong also. The BK judge accepted Republic's higher bid, because that's what he was supposed to do. Southwest declined to raise its bid, specifically due to lack of pilot union agreement. That was GK's contingency, spelled out clearly prior to the BK judge's ruling.

So whether you want to blame it specifically on Stemmler or SWAPA or whoevver doesn't matter; the fact of the matter is that the lack of an agreement between Stemmler and SWAPA on pilot integration WAS the sole reason Southwest's initial offer became void, and they declined to make another offer after Republic joined in.

Sorry if you don't like it, but that's what happened. Anyway, good luck to you guys. Like I said, I'm glad you're happy.

Bubba

 

[jetalc]

I don't know anything about JetBlue's deliberations with Frontier, but if you think you're better off, then I'm happy for you.



I think you need to do a little more reading of history, before you throw around words like "predatory." Morris and ATA were way different from each other, and different from Frontier. June Morris wanted to sell her little airline to Southwest, did so, and then joined our board. Every Morris pilot was assimilated into Southwest. ATA got loans and investment from Southwest during BK, but then later folded itself after losing its governmental charter contract. Southwest then outbid other companies for assets that the BK court sold to pay creditors. Nobody else wanted to buy the company intact and take the employees.



You're correct that Southwest had no plans to put the Airbus into service, at least under Southwest colors. They would have been drawn down to nothing as more 737's were acquired to replace them.

Your last paragraph, however is crap. Management would have raised their bid to buy F9 out of bankruptcy above Republic's if the two pilots' unions had come to an agreement; in fact the first offer was specifically contingent on exactly that. Since there was no such agreement (they only had a few days to do it), GK declined to up his offer, and in fact, his original offer was actually void without a pilots' agreement.

Stemmler insisted on four things during the very short negotiations: pay protection, domicile protection, furlough protection, and seat protection. SWAPA offered, with management's concurrence, the first three, but not seat protection. That means that Southwest agreed to put in writing that NO Frontier pilot would have been furloughed, NO Frontier pilot would have been displaced from Denver, and NO Frontier pilot would have lost money, even a maxed out F9 Captain displaced back to F/O.

If you guys are happier the way things went, and the path ultimately chosen for you, the good for you; I'm glad you got what you want. But I read that Stemmler went back to a hero's welcome, claiming that he had "prevented Southwest from furloughing 20% or more of the pilot group." That's complete crap, and if you need a revisionist's history to be happy, then maybe you didn't get the good deal you thought you did.

Bubba

Where are you getting your information, Bubba? Were you there? My understanding is that specifically the furlough protection was a no-go item with SWA. The fear was exactly that SWA was going to take the A-Concourse in DEN, scrap the Airbi and dump all of the pilots. In spite of the claim that "SWA will not furlough F9 pilots" they wouldn't back that claim up with something substantive like furlough protection. Just my understanding of it - were you in the negotiations? I wasn't.

 

[jetalc]

http://www.9news.com/story/news/2015/01/19/frontier-low-cost-merger/21997107/

You can only jump around into new markets, and then leave, so many times. Choosing Republic over SW was a near fatal flaw that can only be remedied with a merger.

There was no "choice", PGTB. Why can't you understand that?

 

[kwick]

Trying to prop up the brand just isn't working. A merger would benefit all the pilots on the F9 list.

Why don't you concentrate on the Commuter Airline
board, where you might have more
credibility.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Where are you getting your information, Bubba? Were you there? My understanding is that specifically the furlough protection was a no-go item with SWA. The fear was exactly that SWA was going to take the A-Concourse in DEN, scrap the Airbi and dump all of the pilots. In spite of the claim that "SWA will not furlough F9 pilots" they wouldn't back that claim up with something substantive like furlough protection. Just my understanding of it - were you in the negotiations? I wasn't.

From a buddy of mine who was on the merger committee who met with Frontier's. They were authorized by management to offer furlough protection and pay protection (since those cost money), while integration was up to the union. However, they only had a few days to try to make an agreement, and SWAPA's opener was full protections for pay, domicile and furlough, but essentially a staple for integration. The committee was actually a little stunned with Stemmler's attitude, and came away with the idea that he really had no intention of making an agreement, and that if necessary, he would just keep throwing up objections until the time was up. My buddy also said that Stemmler didn't even bother returning some phone calls from them.

As far as how an integration would have went, it would have been sort of like Airtran, but quicker and easier, since F9 had something like 1/3 the number of pilots as Airtran. Airbusses would be retired from Frontier's fleet as 737s were acquired to replace them, and pilots would transition as this happened. That was the plan.

Other than what Stemmler told you when he got back, I don't know why you would think furloughs would have been the case anyway: 1) we wanted to grow into Denver in a big way, and we would need more pilots anyway; 2) Southwest derives a lot of goodwill from its culture, including the unique record of never, ever furloughing anyone...even after 9/11. When and if the day comes when a furlough happens at SWA, that goodwill evaporates instantly. Especially if it was a mean-spirited decision like dumping employees while in an economy making money; and 3) had they done so, the company would have faced numerous legal hurdles related to the SWAPA CBA, not to mention McCaskill-Bond. Not worth the legal hassle and especially the negative press, when the Frontier pilots wouldn't have cost any more (or much more for the very senior ones) than the new hires they would have needed anyway.

Like I said, I'm glad you guys are happy with the way things worked out, and especially happy that you're growing again. But if you guys thanked Stemmler from "saving you from furloughs," then you were sold a bill of goods simply to support the non-acquisition decision that he apparently wanted all along.

Bubba

 

[Flying the Line]

Who cares, WN and F9 never happened. Some people just have to be right.

 

[SWA Bubba]

Who cares, WN and F9 never happened. Some people just have to be right.

Who cares? I dunno; possibly the guy who asked me the question. What's it to you?

Hey, as I've said, I'm happy that they're doing well. Mergers and acquisitions never seem to be good for employees, just management. For employees, someone always gets the short end of the stick.

Bubba

 

[ricj41]

Our MEC chairman, Stemmler, was in NY as a member of the creditors committe during the bankruptcy hearing. He was spending his time dealing with the bankruptcy and was not personally involved in the negotiations with SWAPA. So whoever is claiming that he was is lying.
"Stemmler did this" or "Stemmler wouldn't agree to this" is a complete fabrication. We had a merger committee that was negotiating with SWAPA. The MEC chairman never had the power to do what you've claimed he did.

Again, to claim that an MEC chairman has the power to kill a merger is delusional and completely fabricated.
The judge tossed out SWA offer. In the end there was only 1 offer. And to the creditors who decided who won the auction, it was better then SWA initial offer anyways.
People continue to believe that F9 was SWA to be had. That is not correct. Republic always had the better offer. Employees do not determine who buys their company, they never will.