Frontier Asked for 20% Cut?

[AA717driver]

...smoked turkey legs...

Are we talking about NASCAR?

On topic: Until you get rid of the RLA, the guild idea is out the window. Actually, until you get rid of the RLA, this career is down the $h!tter. TC

 

[JP4user]

Are we talking about NASCAR?

On topic: Until you get rid of the RLA, the guild idea is out the window. Actually, until you get rid of the RLA, this career is down the $h!tter. TC

No truer words have ever been spoken. The silence of ALPA about this is deafening. Duane wouldn't want to rock the boat though and get left out of all those luncheons and other brown nosing events on Capital hill.

Rez..before you chime in, I backed the pac for years.

 

[Draginass]

the guild idea is impractical. Won't work and would be challenged legally anyway. A guild would have to have force of law behind it to work and that's not going to happen. I'd be sort of like the mafia controlling the garbage business in NYC.

You're worth what you willing to show up to work for. If that's $30 an hour, then that's what you're worth. If that's not enough, tell 'em to pound sand and walk. If you want to be able to make a lot of money, go into management where graft, corruption and cronism are the new ethical standards of American business.

 

[fngswa]

lynxx??

What is lynxx??

 

[Dizel8]

What is lynxx??

Not that I know much, but from what I read, it is going to be a subsidiary of Frontier, operating Dash-8s and I believe, maybe smaller jet a/c's.

 

[Scrapdog]

It's a Guild, not a union. Think American Medical Association, or the Bar Association. Really more of a gatekeeper than a union. Everyone presently flying would be grandfathered in, as long as they only flew for guild pay or above.

Also, it's a lot different trying to replace the 80,000 (?) pilots than the controllers. Military pilots couldn't even man one small airline, and without an airline pilot with them, they'd never get off of the Ramp (heh-heh! Just kidding!).

Why would they need pilots? In todays airliners with all the automation we could train chimps to push the "autopilot on" button and throw the gear handle up. And the beauty is - all you have to do is pay them in bananas. I think there are several million chimps in this world - but don't quote me there. That could probably sustain all the airlines you want. What skills do you need? LOL Oh, my bad...the chimps wouldn't be as good as humans at filling out crosswords on transcons, that's where the humans have the upper edge.

If 20 year olds are flying RJ's with no turbine time and about 300 hours of multi at the regionals at 20 dollars an hour - surely the skill set is not that complex.

Chimps for all my friends!

 

[Green]

Scrapdog,


How old do you have to be to fly an F-16? How much total time do you need before they'll throw you in the cockpit?

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

Nationwide seniority list and pay, come on now-- why don't we just have one airline and let the government run it then? Geez, the ideas that come up in this forum are just ridiculous sometimes...

 

[Scrapdog]

Scrapdog,


How old do you have to be to fly an F-16? How much total time do you need before they'll throw you in the cockpit?

To get into a fighter cockpit (Eagle, Viper, Hog) and you're just starting the B course and are a second lieutenant - i.e. the earliest possible scenario...I would imagine the average age is about 24 to 25. That's considering you graduated from college at 22, spent about a year to year and a half in military pilot training, and another six months going through Introduction to Fighter Fundamentals as well as knocking out all the other class requirements (SERE and Water Survival to name two of the top of my head). Before ever hopping in a 2 seat model of the F-15 or F-16 for a guy's first flight (obviously not a 2 seater in the A-10) the average guy has about 250 hours or so of high performance jet time in the T-37/T-6 and the T-38 with an additional 30 to 40 high performance hours in the AT-38 during the Intro to fighter fundamentals. During that time the student has already taken about 10 checkrides ranging from an instrument checkride to an tactical formation checkride - as well as any civilian time the kind has built up before even starting military pilot training through the government sponsored initial flying program in a bug smasher. Overall I'd say he's recieved some pretty high quality jet time with most of it focused on tactical flying to prep him for fighters, which is much more intense than flying from point A to B with vectors to the ILS on the full stop.

 

[pipe]

To get into a fighter cockpit (Eagle, Viper, Hog) and you're just starting the B course and are a second lieutenant - i.e. the earliest possible scenario...I would imagine the average age is about 24 to 25. That's considering you graduated from college at 22, spent about a year to year and a half in military pilot training, and another six months going through Introduction to Fighter Fundamentals as well as knocking out all the other class requirements (SERE and Water Survival to name two of the top of my head). Before ever hopping in a 2 seat model of the F-15 or F-16 for a guy's first flight (obviously not a 2 seater in the A-10) the average guy has about 250 hours or so of high performance jet time in the T-37/T-6 and the T-38 with an additional 30 to 40 high performance hours in the AT-38 during the Intro to fighter fundamentals. During that time the student has already taken about 10 checkrides ranging from an instrument checkride to an tactical formation checkride - as well as any civilian time the kind has built up before even starting military pilot training through the government sponsored initial flying program in a bug smasher. Overall I'd say he's recieved some pretty high quality jet time with most of it focused on tactical flying to prep him for fighters, which is much more intense than flying from point A to B with vectors to the ILS on the full stop.

Just let it go man.

Your post is all factual until the last sentence. Then it winds up at your opinion. Amazingly, your opinion falls toward the way you did it.

Guess what? I trained civ, had several thousand hours, then trained mil. One ain't any better than the other. You know why?

BOTH ARE WHAT YOU MAKE OF THEM!

Pipe

 

[Big Duke Six]

Pipe, don't even bother. This guy's a wannabe anyway. Just let him post. Grrrr...

 

[radarlove]

Overall I'd say he's recieved some pretty high quality jet time with most of it focused on tactical flying to prep him for fighters, which is much more intense than flying from point A to B with vectors to the ILS on the full stop.

Wow! Then he would be "the best of the best!"

A 250 hour wonder! High-performance and everything!

But what happens if you "lose the edge"?

Geez, you military guys are a self-congratulatory bunch. A 250 hour pilot is a puppy, jet time or no jet time, no matter what Viper tells you at Top Gun.

 

[727C47]

Wow! Then he would be "the best of the best!"

A 250 hour wonder! High-performance and everything!

But what happens if you "lose the edge"?

Geez, you military guys are a self-congratulatory bunch. A 250 hour pilot is a puppy, jet time or no jet time, no matter what Viper tells you at Top Gun.[/quot

you go boy !

 

[radarlove]

What's funny is watching that "tactical fighter" guy actually get in a sim and try to fly from point A to point B with a full-stop ILS.

"Um, this is a localizer, here's the glideslope coming in--whups! No, you have to descend now--no-no descend, stay on the glideslope--oh, let's just try it again."

 

[BoilerUP]

Deleted to prevent mil/civ thread hijacking...but my offer still stands.

 

[SkiFishFly]

Back to the topic

I am fairly new to the airline gig but what I find interesting is the way the seniority system is set up. I understand a lot of the reasoning behind it but it gives management a huge advantage.
After you have spent more than 2 years at one major - they got you by the balls. Very, very few folks would be willing to change to a different carrier and start over at the bottom at that point. Management knows this and they use it to their advantage all the time now.
I have some friends who work in other civilian fields (accounting, computers etc). They have all changed employers several times. When they do it is always for better pay and benefits - their salary has improved commensurate with their knowledge and experience. Our system of pilot seniority at individual companies does not allow this. If it did allow it, we might be able to improve pay and benefits for all of us.

 

[dojetdriver]

YIPPPPEEEEEEEE! HORAAAAAAAY! This has detereorted into another mil vs. civ thread.

Anybody got any solid info on whether or not the F9 guys are going to get bent over or what?

 

[koko nw]

What's funny is watching that "tactical fighter" guy actually get in a sim and try to fly from point A to point B with a full-stop ILS.

"Um, this is a localizer, here's the glideslope coming in--whups! No, you have to descend now--no-no descend, stay on the glideslope--oh, let's just try it again."

Yep keep telling your self that an ILS is SOOO hard to fly.
Dude I'm not a fighter guy BUT flying an ILS is not that challenging my friend compared to what they do sortie upon sortie.

Vice You, well let's just say flying an ILS IS the most challenging thing you do in a plane.

Headwinds Schmuck

Koko

 

[mynameisjim]

I like headwinds. It usually means I'll overblock, and that means more money for :beer:

 

[Bavarian Chef]

Yep keep telling your self that an ILS is SOOO hard to fly.
Dude I'm not a fighter guy BUT flying an ILS is not that challenging my friend compared to what they do sortie upon sortie.

Vice You, well let's just say flying an ILS IS the most challenging thing you do in a plane.

Headwinds Schmuck

Koko

Have you seen some of these legacy captains? It is hard flying an ILS when your trifocals won't let you see over that massive belly blocking the entire panel. Or when you nose and ear hair start to look like needles on the screen, maybe it's time to give them a trim.

Or maybe it is hard to fly an ILS when you're dead tired after spending the last night in some flight attendants pantyhose while having circus sex in the hotel jacuzzi?

Man, another flightinfo hijack at its best. It would be nice to hear more about Frontier, but then like any good roadside accident I keep checking in to see if Occam has posted his opinion yet. When are we cleared to bash JetBlue?

 

[radarlove]

YIPPPPEEEEEEEE! HORAAAAAAAY! This has detereorted into another mil vs. civ thread.

Hey, he started it.

"Mom! Mo-ooooom! The military guys are bragging again!"

 

[YourPilotFriend]

If United pays say 135$ and Frontier is paying 155$


A couple of comments:

1. There is not a pilot at Frontier making $155 per hour.

2. Why no mention of SW. We all know a 737 CA makes alot more than a Frontier or United equivalent.

Since the size of SWA is so much bigger than any other single fleet LCC, it can still afford to pay it's pilots extra according to unit cost. i.e. the more airplanes you got the lower the operational costs the more avialable pay there is for pilots. SWA has not asked for paycuts yet because its structure still has the pricing power to produce profits. However, simply put SWA pricing power is artificial since most legacies can take the hit of charging SWA type prices on their own routes and make large profits. So current legacies are simply following SWA rate increases becuase it makes them even bigger profits. If the legacies keep up with this trend, which I expect they will, SWA will not change and offer its pilots their current contract at all costs. However, if the legacies choose not to increase fares along with SWA as their fuel hedges run out SWA will see large drops in its capacity. SWA will then have to cut fares in order to maintain capacity, since falling below break even capacity would liquidate that company in a less than a year. To gain back the competive edge gained by the atrocious paycuts the leagacies have got from employees, SWA would need to cut pay and benifits by up to as much as 40%.

 

[Benhuntn]

YPF

When Herb and Gary are gone make sure you send in your ap for the CEO position. Sounds like you have it all figured out already....but some how it smell like dog doo to me. Or as some call it Bovine Scatology

 

[YourPilotFriend]

YPF

When Herb and Gary are gone make sure you send in your ap for the CEO position. Sounds like you have it all figured out already....but some how it smell like dog doo to me. Or as some call it Bovine Scatology

Ok explain to me the success of SWA, and don't give me that employee/management relationship Bull$hit. Since we all know the legeacy airline way of life before it went down the $hitter was way better than SWA.

Personally, I think SWA made its money because it charged lower fares and could make money doing it. That's because it had a lower operational cost and paid its employees less. Remember SWA senior captains are the original airline concessions pilots. Now they are an even cost operator and without fuel hedges are the highest cost operator.

 

[radarlove]

The UAL machinists leaked the company's proposal for a loan. In it, McKinsey consultants showed that the difference of efficiency between a network (hub and spoke) and a point-to-point airline is 20%, using their numbers.

So a point-to-point airline, of the same scale as a network airline will have costs 20% cheaper--it's built into the business model.

Smaller point-to-point airlines don't have the same advantages, due to economies of scale. That's why JBLU is trying to grow up so fast, they've done the math.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

However, if the legacies choose not to increase fares along with SWA as their fuel hedges run out SWA will see large drops in its capacity. SWA will then have to cut fares in order to maintain capacity, since falling below break even capacity would liquidate that company in a less than a year.

To gain back the competive edge gained by the atrocious paycuts the leagacies have got from employees, SWA would need to cut pay and benifits by up to as much as 40%.

I'm hearing you. Please elaborate on the 40% number. I know there is some rounding done for simplicity, but what are you looking at? Fuel hedge changes, debt reduction at legacies, comparison of non-fuel and employee costs?

I tend to use the CASM and RASM info from quarterly reports. Lots of interesting info like debt servicing payments, employees per airplane and lease payments.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

I'm hearing you. Please elaborate on the 40% number. I know there is some rounding done for simplicity, but what are you looking at? Fuel hedge changes, debt reduction at legacies, comparison of non-fuel and employee costs?

I tend to use the CASM and RASM info from quarterly reports. Lots of interesting info like debt servicing payments, employees per airplane and lease payments.

That's the problem, what you see in the quartely reports are averages at the legacies. They take all their CASM and average them together. At NWA the CASM spread looks like this international is running about 20 cents a mile domestic is about 8.5 cents a mile, and regional is about 15.5 cents per mile. When put together it's about 11 cents a mile for the entire operation. SWA has only one CASM that is about 8.0 cents. When SWA fuel hedges run out it will go up to about 9.5 cents a mile. So at NWA the competeing seat will be about 1 cent lower per mile 11% lower than SWA. When you consider that SWA has such an absolutely lean operation, the only place the can get cuts is in the employee area. SWA employee costs are 3.14 cents a mile and NWA is 2.12 cents a mile. So for SWA to get an exact match of the CASM it would need to reduce the CASM by 1 cent per mile. A 33% reduction for all employees, but since that would be too much for some employee groups more would have to be taken from the pilots.

Furthermore, NWA will be offering additional service on domestic flights because of the higher RPM on the international routes. So not only will SWA be more expensive, it will offer less service. This is all compliments of the United States bankruptcy law.

 

[radarlove]

Wow. So SWA should be running scared of NWA? Dogs living with cats!

 

[AnimalTale]

First year pay cut to 30 an hour
years 4-10 will have a 2 year pay freeze
we gain more 401K (less years to get vested)
they get the two year freeze to help pay for Lynxx
The pilot group is paying for Lynxx so as secure the future
Jeff Potter sent out a letter one week ago, and the last line sais it all. We need Lynxx to survive in the current market. Once agian the fear factor is alive at f9 and everyone is will to cut their pay. Say hell know and lets see potter sell some of his 195000 stock options to help pay for it. FAPA GOOD LUCK BOYS, YOU SHOUD HAVE GOTTEN AN EDUCATION SO YOU COULDN'T BE BULL********************TED

NO pay cuts for FOs. Only new hire pay will go down.
Captain Pay freeze 1 to 2steps.
401k matching monthly
B-Fund Included


Cya

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

SWA employee costs are 3.14 cents a mile and NWA is 2.12 cents a mile. So for SWA to get an exact match of the CASM it would need to reduce the CASM by 1 cent per mile.

Looking at the employee portion of CASM is a good place to start.

But the pieces don't seem to be fitting together. With oil down near 60 we should see some serious competition instead of shrinkage at NWA. Perhaps it is too early to tell. Many say the economy, and travel, may be slowing down for awhile.

There seems to be a belief at AA and perhaps at NWA that keeping the number of furloughed pilots up is good for the corporation. Force a lean structure on the pilots to "help" them fly extra in the summer and let them fly normally in the fall and early spring. Some need the extra flying to make ends meet with the lower pay. I bet its also good for bargaining.

How does this affect Frontier? What is Frontier's CASM again? If UAL is now kicking you in the rear-end on CASM then expect a bonafide push to cut your pay by 20%. Don't even mention SWA pushing around the dirt in your sandbox. What will you do?