From the NWA MEC to their constituents

[NuGuy]

Old news on the -9's. very close to the original fleet plan. the last few years they kept more -9's flying at low utilization rates to slow down a/c going through heavy mx. Sold 30 to a South American Co. Utilization rates to almost double with remaining a/c.

Heyas,

Not only that, but the narrowbody floor comes into effect at the end of next month. If they want to park any more DC-9s, they have to start parking 76 seaters.

Nu

 

[Superpilot92]

Did the increase in pay, DC plan, work rules, widebody/international flying, and equity (while keeping their pensions) also "negate the benefit" to NWA pilots?

I don't know why my Delta buddies are even considering these guys.

Red tails?

More like red noses. As in Bozo.

Whats even funnier than your rumblings are that you don't even work for either Airline yet have nothing better to do than post constant flames about a subject you're not even involved with. And to think you tried to flame me for being a newb at NWA and how that some how effects my opinion in some way, yet you don't work at either.

You and the other constant flamers are the main reason why this forum isnt worth much anymore.:bomb:

 

[jke406]

Old news...real old....

...so you guys are on record as saying no further aircraft will be parked?

really?

 

[Superpilot92]

Heyas,

Not only that, but the narrowbody floor comes into effect at the end of next month. If they want to park any more DC-9s, they have to start parking 76 seaters.

Nu

Hey you know better than posting factual information on FI. :beer:

 

[d.fitz]

...they get to KEEP THEIR PENSIONS,...

Did you really expect them to give up their pensions? Just because you unfortunately lost yours' doesn't mean that is a bonus for NWA...

 

[d.fitz]

If you don't like our offer, then quit calling.

That seems to sum up the DAL negotiating strategy.

 

[Superpilot92]

Did you really expect them to give up their pensions? Just because you unfortunately lost yours' doesn't mean that is a bonus for NWA...

I have seen that from a number of DAL guys, evidently they think so

 

[DTW320]

Did you really expect them to give up their pensions? Just because you unfortunately lost yours' doesn't mean that is a bonus for NWA...

They didn't unfortunately lose them. According to many of them here they were made whole and then some by the claim sale and the $650m note. Yup, the same ones that then post that they should receive credit in the SLI for their "loss of pension". Which is it? (they never answer that one). DoubleBreasted DoubleStandard or just simple bi-polar disorder? Who knows...

 

[Ex737Driver]

and the biggie...Air France. Open skies is coming, be it now or later. A global airline is coming with Sky team a leg up on being dominant.


That's the way it is.

You'd sell your mother out if it worked in your favor, wouldn't you?

 

[General Lee]

They didn't unfortunately lose them. According to many of them here they were made whole and then some by the claim sale and the $650m note. Yup, the same ones that then post that they should receive credit in the SLI for their "loss of pension". Which is it? (they never answer that one). DoubleBreasted DoubleStandard or just simple bi-polar disorder? Who knows...

There is a difference. We had a claim sale, which did NOT deal with the pension. Then, we had a pension note, and most got 1 year filled for the 2008 401K ($46,000) and the rest was taxed-- I got abit over $70,000, but 46 of that went into the 401K, and the rest was taxed.. (and not at a normal amount, which means I have to pay some extra taxes now) Most guys under 10 years got less than $30,000, and that didn't even fill up the 401K allottment. So, did we or didn't we lose our pension? Is your pension worth $30,000? The claim sale had nothing to do with the pension at all, it was because we were creditors in the airline. Again, you don't know what you are talking about. Double Standard? Riiiiiiight.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Did you really expect them to give up their pensions? Just because you unfortunately lost yours' doesn't mean that is a bonus for NWA...

The reason we lost 2000 pilots is because they were forced to either take the lump sum, or risk losing it all. Many had a choice between staying at an airline they had worked for for 25 plus years, or leaving with a nice chunk of change, and maybe nothing else. That is why 2000 left. We kept most of our work rules, which NWA would gain back if we merged, since they gave their's away. Do you see the double standard here? We kept our rules and lost the pension. NWA kept their pension, and lost their work rules. So, if we merge, they get the rules back, yet keep their pensions. We don't. If you don't yet understand the inequity, then you probably never will. How about if we do merge, someone in management THREATENS to take away NWA's pensions. What would happen? They would lose maybe 2000 of their pilots, and then we would be equal in age. A win-win, right? Do you need a "heading" to understand this?


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Cobraair75drvr]

General,
I asked in the delta cuts thread some questions for you or any other delta guys. Do you mind answering the questions? Just would like to know how much we must improve our contract.. I don't have a copy of yours to compare, but it appears that dalpa has given you guys a comparison with ours. Both here, apc, and the alpa board I keep hearing the same old song about how superior deltas contract is. I am very interested as it might be worth my while to put in an app as I live in the south and it would be an easier commute. Also with the rapid movement y'all are having vs our parking of the dc9s and 74s I might as well start over and be a new hire 76fo with much better career expectations.

 

[General Lee]

General,
I asked in the delta cuts thread some questions for you or any other delta guys. Do you mind answering the questions? Just would like to know how much we must improve our contract.. I don't have a copy of yours to compare, but it appears that dalpa has given you guys a comparison with ours. Both here, apc, and the alpa board I keep hearing the same old song about how superior deltas contract is. I am very interested as it might be worth my while to put in an app as I live in the south and it would be an easier commute. Also with the rapid movement y'all are having vs our parking of the dc9s and 74s I might as well start over and be a new hire 76fo with much better career expectations.

I don't have a copy of the contract on me, but I can go look for that comparison. It is probably on the Dalpa net. As far as hiring goes, we have 3 more classes upcoming, and then we will stop until the end of the year, when 6 777LRs come in 3 months. I did hear that if you got our rules, you would have to hire 300-400 pilots immediately (with no growth) just to match them. PM FDJ2 and he could probably get you that info quicker than I could. I will see what I can do.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[DTW320]

There is a difference. We had a claim sale, which did NOT deal with the pension. Then, we had a pension note, and most got 1 year filled for the 2008 401K ($46,000) and the rest was taxed-- I got abit over $70,000, but 46 of that went into the 401K, and the rest was taxed.. (and not at a normal amount, which means I have to pay some extra taxes now) Most guys under 10 years got less than $30,000, and that didn't even fill up the 401K allottment. So, did we or didn't we lose our pension? Is your pension worth $30,000? The claim sale had nothing to do with the pension at all, it was because we were creditors in the airline. Again, you don't know what you are talking about. Double Standard? Riiiiiiight.


Bye Bye--General Lee

Gee thanks prof. We had a claim sale too (at a lot more than 60 cents on the dollar) So you got 70k for your share of the $650m note. All above 46k was taxable with 25% federal withholding plus state (6% in GA, top marginal rate). Plus you got a 9% DC plan you didn't have before A-plan termination. Here's what FDJ2 said about it:

After DAL's pension was terminated all DAL pilots got their DC plan set at 9% along with a 2% 401k contribution (not match). Additionally, DAL pilots received a$650m from DAL. This cash was distributed and covered at least 100% of DAL pilot qualified accrued benefits from the terminated plan. Junior pilots received more than their accrued benefit. Senior pilots with non qualified earnings based $250k/year received 60 cents on the dollar for all benefits above $205K/year

Essentially, the DAL pilots already have their DB plan in their own name. Additionally, DAL pilots recieved over $1.2B in cash value from the bankruptcy claim. This money has already been distributed with the most junior pilots on the seniority list at the time receiving approximately $100K cash lump payment.

He seems, ahem, a lot more knowledgeable about it than you.
So, once again, tell me why you deserve a "credit" on SLI for your "lost" pension.
Here's what YOU said about it:

So, did you totally forget about our claim in BK worth $400,000 to most Captains and $280,000 to me, plus an additional amount for the pension dump?(up to $250,000 for some captains and around $66,000 for me) You left that out. A pension is just a promise unless it is in your own name. We now have a DC fund that addresses that issue, and cash in the bank and full 401Ks to help with that pension "promise" that was broken. Our bottom furloughed pilot got a huge chunk, and our retired guys also got most of what they were "owed."

Oh, but you said that BEFORE you needed to justify an unjustifiable SLI proposal.
Double Standard? YouuuuuBetcha.
Don't know what I'm talking about huh. Riiiiiiight.

 

[DTW320]

The reason we lost 2000 pilots is because they were forced to either take the lump sum, or risk losing it all. Many had a choice between staying at an airline they had worked for for 25 plus years, or leaving with a nice chunk of change, and maybe nothing else. That is why 2000 left. We kept most of our work rules, which NWA would gain back if we merged, since they gave their's away. Have you even looked at the comparison? Doubt it. Do you see the double standard here?Why Yes....Yes I do. Your pension experts explain that everyone will be better off than before, retirement wise, yet you want credit for a lost pension. We kept our rules and lost the pension. NWA kept their pension, and lost their work rules. So, if we merge, they get the rules back, yet keep their pensions.How about all the NWA pilots whose frozen pensions are the same as or less than DAL pilots PBGC guarantee? We don't. If you don't yet understand the inequity, then you probably never will. How about if we do merge, someone in management THREATENS to take away NWA's pensions. Threaten all they want. Would have to be in BK or fully funded to terminate(federal law) What would happen? They would lose maybe 2000 of their pilots, Why?and then we would be equal in age. A win-win, right? Do you need a "heading" to understand this?


Bye Bye--General Lee

Do you need a Vnav profile to understand this?

 

[DTW320]

General,
I asked in the delta cuts thread some questions for you or any other delta guys. Do you mind answering the questions? Just would like to know how much we must improve our contract.. I don't have a copy of yours to compare, but it appears that dalpa has given you guys a comparison with ours. Both here, apc, and the alpa board I keep hearing the same old song about how superior deltas contract is. I am very interested as it might be worth my while to put in an app as I live in the south and it would be an easier commute. Also with the rapid movement y'all are having vs our parking of the dc9s and 74s I might as well start over and be a new hire 76fo with much better career expectations.

Cobra: There is a contract comparison as part of the merger analysis done by ALPA E&FA available on the nwaalpa website.

 

[FDJ2]

Gee thanks prof. We had a claim sale too (at a lot more than 60 cents on the dollar)

You also had a substantially smaller claim and were unable to presell all of it. I believe at the end of the day your total claim value in cash and stock was somewhere north of $625M, the DAL claim value in cash and stock was over $1.25B. That didn't include the $650M note. Note, and claim monies were distributed first into each pilots 401k and DC plan up to the IRS 415 limit of 44k in 2006, 45k in 2007 and 45k in 2008. After each plan was filled to the IRS limit, each pilots 9% DC plan and 2% 401K contribution was paid out as income, giving most pilots an 11% pay raise. Current legislation in Washington, The Lost Retirement Savings Act, will allow up to 100% of the claim and note to be tax deferred if rolled over into an IRA. Just some info for your consideration.

FWIW, this is all about nothing at this point. Despite NWALPA's desire to push forward with the merger the transaction framework agreement is dead. So please tell your MEC Chairman to drop it and move on. It's over. Good luck to you guys, I hope you hit a home run on your next contract.

 

[DTW320]

You also had a substantially smaller claim and were unable to presell all of it. I believe at the end of the day your total claim value in cash and stock was somewhere north of $625M, the DAL claim value in cash and stock was over $1.25B. That didn't include the $650M note. Note, and claim monies were distributed first into each pilots 401k and DC plan up to the IRS 415 limit of 44k in 2006, 45k in 2007 and 45k in 2008. After each plan was filled to the IRS limit, each pilots 9% DC plan and 2% 401K contribution was paid out as income, giving most pilots an 11% pay raise. Current legislation in Washington, The Lost Retirement Savings Act, will allow up to 100% of the claim and note to be tax deferred if rolled over into an IRA. Just some info for your consideration.

FWIW, this is all about nothing at this point. Despite NWALPA's desire to push forward with the merger the transaction framework agreement is dead. So please tell your MEC Chairman to drop it and move on. It's over. Good luck to you guys, I hope you hit a home run on your next contract.

Our claim was $888M + a $16.8M cash BK exit bonus. DAL's was $2.1B. So our claim was about 42% of yours in intial dollars. We sold @ 45% of it at between 84 and 85c on the dollar. The remaining 55% was sold around the time of BK exit for a little more than 65c on the dollar. Total weighted average was @ 74c/dollar.Total net with the exit bonus made it around $675M so we ended up at around 55% of the DAL claim in final $. We did the same thing reference the 401k and then received the, at the time, 5% DC + 3% 401k in cash.

As you said, your $650M note was additional and was for the DB termination. Combined with your 11% DC + any PBGC money, and the fact that, as you guys have said, it's better to have cash in your name vs the promise of a pension, it seems like you haven't lost much vs the old plan. Which is why I'm amazed that DALPA wanted some SLI credit for the "lost" pension vs NWA.

PS. Not familiar with the legislation you referenced. If enacted, would the money we received that wouldn't fit in the 401k be eligible? The fact that we have already paid tax on the excess would seem to complicate it though. Do you know how that would work?

 

[On Your Six]

Let's all hope that this deal fails and we all move on and let the chips fall where they may.... That's what my Delta buddies tell me. The only reason why talks would continue at this point would be interest from the NWA side of the fence...

God speed!