Freedomb all ready taking Mesa flights

[FL717]

eaglefly:

How about turning down your volume a bit. Its gonna be okay. We're all just having a conversation and you're all worked up about ... really nothing. I have never crossed a picket line, and work for a decent union carrier. You may not like my company, as evident by your attempted slap at me in your post.. but hey.. thats your problem. By the way exactly how many pilots at my company have crossed picket lines, and how does this affect you? When were you at Eastern? Are you an ALPA member now? If these questions don't apply to you, then how about staying on topic about Freedom Air and not me and my company..please.

My point is, and I'll try and clarify: there will ALWAYS be people who do what they and only they want. The key is that the majority of union labor WILL stay on course and that is the key to a successfull union... not that 1%-10% who do not abide by the CBA. Name calling and a stupid blacklist for people you don't know and never worked with at the same company, does very little... like it or not. We need to educate on exactly what Freedom Air is to unions across this great country.

Go union!

 

[DruDown]

Buda,
Excellent post. Jet Blue wasn't started-up in an attempt to circumvent the union or poise another company's employees against one another. Freedom was deliberately established to do just these things in a malicious manner.

Secondly, you make no sense with your comments. If you do go to work, you do influence the industry - NEGATIVELY! While the majority of us are trying to stick it out and fight for what we derserve - fair compensation, work rules and livable schedules, you would desecrating our attempts by going to Freedumb, in a manner saying that these things are not important, that protection is unnecessary, and "who needs work rules."

Our industry historically go through these cycles of expansion and cutbacks, it's your choice how to deal with it, but be advised, choosing to work at Freedumb and helping them get off their feet only hurts everyone and everyone's career. It takes away the limited leverage we have to protect our jobs. Think about the big picture before you focus in on yourself.

 

[D8drvr]

DruDown said:

"Secondly, you make no sense with your comments. If you do go to work, you do influence the industry - NEGATIVELY!"

So, I will influence the industry positively and stay unemployed? Am I making sense now?


"...it's your choice how to deal with it, but be advised, choosing to work at Freedumb and helping them get off their feet only hurts everyone and everyone's career."

Yes, it would definately hurt everyone by allowing me to pay my mortgage.


"Think about the big picture before you focus in on yourself."

I do try to see the big picture. And so you don't focus on yourself too much, you could send me your paycheck, since I'm the one helping the industry by staying unemployed. And could you put my kids on your health plan too, I am too busy looking at the big picture.

Again,

FloridaGulf was non-union when it started. The growth of non-union FloridaGulf caused the furlough of unionized, ALPA, Allegheny pilots. Mesa pilots should have thought about the big picture years ago instead of focusing on themselves.

 

[jetdriven]

freedom air is full of the "me first" and "every man for himself" mentality you posess. With your attitude I can see why you are on your 6th airline job, as your profile states. Perhaps you screwed yourself somewhere job-hopping along the way eh?
Nobody told you to have a mortgage and kids while in the airlines. I was furloughed last fall FROM MESA and to save money we stayed in my crappy 550 sq foot apartment with no cable. I also sold the 12,000$ car we were driving within a month and took up instructing part time at night. I switched from pepsi to iced tea.
Bottom line we were able to SAVE money, and, no I never considered Freedom-air!

how many mesa pilots cannot feed their kids or pay their mortgages when all of mesa's planes and routes are shifted over to freedom air? Did you think of that?

 

[eaglefly]

717 - volume is just fine. If you think that this conversation is about......"really nothing", then you are truly uninformed about this industrys past as well as it's potential future.

Yes ALPA. 16+ years.

ALPA definately has it's problems - Mainline/regional misrepresentation, J4J etc.

But to accept and justify pilots FREELY choosing to assist an individual exibiting all the characteristics of Frank Lorenzo in the interest of themselves at the expense of the airline pilot profession as a whole should NEVER be condoned.

If you don't TRULY understand the problem here (it appears you don't), then our profession just got one straw weaker.

JO and people like him are DEPENDING on you to help him. Sadly, he will sleep a little better tonight knowing that you're out there.

 

[D8drvr]

Years ago, when flying was shifted from Allegheny to FloridaGulf/Mesa and Allegheny pilots lost their jobs, the "me first" and "every man for himself" attitude seemed to be on the Mesa side.

I am sorry to hear that you were furloughed. I have been there a few times myself. But, it sounds like you are back now, and Mesa has growth plans. Freedom was not the cause of your furlough (FloridaGulf was the direct reason for the Allegheny furloughs).

Freedom is a start-up. And many CURRENTLY unemployed pilots need a job.

 

[FL717]

eaglefly:

What have I done?? You don't know me so I will educate you...
1. I have been a member of ALPA and never repeat NEVER crossed a picket line and supported ALPA during my tenure.

2. I currently work for a union shop and have never.. repeat NEVER crossed a picket line and honor our union negotiated CBA.

3. If you take the time to read my post.. I said.. repeat SAID that I think Freedom Air is a bad thing for our industry and should be avoided.

4. If you knew me you'd see my career is right on track (much better than alot unfortunately for them) and I am very informed on the issue here and have simply pointed out some rational against people getting so emotional that they can't direct their energy where it belongs.

5. My issue now with you is you personalize this and continue to take personal shots at me.. for what reason?? I ask again... what have I ever done.. "so JO sleeps better knowing I'm out here" ?? I have never worked at Mesa and I assure you ... I won't not that it is your business either way.

You are way off base and out of line on this one. I'll go play with others now, you are too personal and take issues with me for others actions. My words are only opinions that I believe true, while you simply attack for reasons only you know, and I quite frankly don't care.

 

[jetdriven]

am sorry to hear that you were furloughed. I have been there a few times myself. But, it sounds like you are back now, and Mesa has growth plans.

Mesa has no growth planned. all future jet deliveries are going to freedom. Plus JO is planning to shift the existing airframes over there as well.
The pilots that should be flying these -700/-900's are the pilots on the MESA seniority list. The guys on the street should be hired in at the bottom, beech 1900, ERJ, or whatever. Thats the FAIR way to do it. Thats the way I was hired. Unfortunately, MAG management is morally and ethically bankrupt.

 

[D8drvr]

"Mesa has no growth planned. all future jet deliveries are going to freedom. Plus JO is planning to shift the existing airframes over there as well. "

How do you know this is fact. It sounds like rumor. Please provide the proof. I saw that Mesa is looking to get another 20 RJs to fly for USAirways.

"The pilots that should be flying these -700/-900's are the pilots on the MESA seniority list. The guys on the street should be hired in at the bottom, beech 1900, ERJ, or whatever. Thats the FAIR way to do it. Thats the way I was hired."

"Thats the way I was hired"

"Thats the way I was hired"

Life is not fair. We all know that. My career expectations have changed because of that reality.

"Thats the way I was hired"

You know your arguements sound very similar to the Delta and USAirways mainline pilots in their positions on RJs at their express carriers. I'm sure there are a few USAirways pilots that are about to be furloughed that would say the 20 RJs Mesa is getting are their jets / their flying.

"Thats the way I was hired"

The comments I keep getting are that I'm not thinking of the Mesa pilots. Are the Mesa pilots thinking about the USAirways pilots? A major airline's contract is better than Mesa's, perhaps the Mesa pilots should give up their jobs to protect the major's pilots. I know this is rediculous, but so is saying that an unemployed pilot should not work for Freedom because it will hurt Mesa. Prove it. We are talking less growth, not furloughs. And we are definately NOT talking about crossing picket lines.

"Thats the way I was hired"

Who has the ..."freedom air is full of the "me first" and "every man for himself" mentality you posess."...attitude now?

 

[BoredToDeath]

Plain and Simple:

This situation is exactly the reason contract carriers need to go away. All aircraft for a particular airline need to be flown by that airlines pilot sen. list and that list only.

Mesa's now getting a taste of their own medicine. Does'nt feel so good to have your flying contracted out to cheap labor does it?

 

[DruDown]

My areguments in favor of avoiding Freedumb go beyondt he scope of just the Mesa pilots. In fact I don't think I've referred to only the Mesa pilots at all. My point is that cases like Freedumb need be avioded. Yes, look at the past, look at what happened withFG and Allegheny - that's exactly what is going to happen AGAIN if this whole Freedumb bull-*&^%$! gets off its feet.

Aren't we supposed to learn from our past - Let's not make the same mistakes again. Whether you like it or not, but choosing to be an airline pilot, you have chosen a career path that has many ups and downs, many negative aspects, and very little of the mistique many believe exists. Like I said, it's your choice how to deal with it all, but remember your actions have far reaching consequences.

Remember, you chose to take a mortgage, you chose to rack up your bills - don't take it out on the rest of the industry because you can't handle your finances. Again, look at the big picture. Understand your profession and realize that taking such risks as a mortgage may not be the smartest move. Don't blame the rest of us for your problems. But, more importantly, don't take the quick band-aid to fix your problems when the overall consequences of those actions negatively affect your peers and your profession as a whole!

We are all in this one together - we all have to deal with the problems at hand. Don't be part of the problem.

 

[Caveman]

If you eat at McDonalds instead of the local restaurant that employs union labor then you must be a scab according to some of the logic in this thread.

There is no god given right to union protection. Some companies have them, some don't. If you choose to work at a company that does, then you enjoy certain protections, but at a cost. When the economy goes south so will the jobs that cost business the most, namely union jobs.

It isn't illegal, unethical, indecent, or against the law to work for a nonunion shop. Too bad if the union 'brothers and sisters' don't like it.

Capitalism is a risky way of life. Sometimes you do well. Other times somebody else figures out a way to do things cheaper and they get what used to be your customers. As union laborers we aren't and shouldn't be immune from the risks. Every single pilot furloughed today would still be working if collectively their union locals would have agreed to concessions. When business is slow management holds all the aces, when business is booming and they need labor we are in the power seat.

Two years ago when pattern bargaining was in it's heyday and everybody was topping everybody else I didn't hear anybody complaining. The rules haven't changed. It's managements turn to pattern bargain back the other way.

If you don't like the terms of employment at Freedom then don't apply to work there but nonunion employees have ZERO obligation to support union employees.

I have chosen to work in a union shop, but I accept the risks involved. I am fully aware that my company may outsource my job to a lower bidder. In the meantime I enjoy a pretty decent way of life.

 

[jetdriven]

"Mesa has no growth planned. all future jet deliveries are going to freedom. Plus JO is planning to shift the existing airframes over there as well. "

How do you know this is fact. It sounds like rumor. Please provide the proof. I saw that Mesa is looking to get another 20 RJs to fly for USAirways.

Freedumb has orders and options for 70 aircraft. MESA did sign an agreement for 20 Jets4Jobs aircraft, but only 10 of these will be staffed with mesa pilots. These 10 aircraft are from the AWA system being pulled down to make room for 70-seat flying. AWA noticed us on 4 CRJ's this year and an additional 2 more in feb. Convinced?
You keep bringing up how FGA took ALG's routes but the difference here is FGA was not OWNED by ALG. FGA was a NEW company that has no ties to ALG. they BOUGHT the routes. Same with AA/TWA. I dont hear you crying for the thousand or so TWA pilots furloughed.
Freedumb was createe SOLELY to shift flying from mesa to Freedumb. I have a T-shirt which says "MESA Airlines, first to fly the CRJ-900." The scope still may remain at U mainline but the MESA MEC's position was and always has been "have as many certificates as you wish as long as all Mesa Air Group aircraft are flown by one pilot group and one contract." I would go to freedom in a second if it were under the mesa contract and mesa list.

 

[Snakum]

"Remember, you chose to take a mortgage, you chose to rack up your bills - don't take it out on the rest of the industry because you can't handle your finances."

This statement is ignorant beyond all measure. Perhaps after you grow up and have a family of your own and are forced to put a roof over their heads and food in their little bellies you will re-evaluate this ignorant comment. I hope so, for your future family's sake.

You guys just aren't clicking to the program. You never took ECON 101, perhaps. The bottom line is that the flying belongs to the CEO and the BOD and they will give it to whomever can make them the most money ... period. These arguments against Freedom largely ignore free-market reality, unfortunately.

Would I apply at Freedom? No, and I was encouraged to do so by the guy who was selling the PACE program at Mesa. I don't like whipsaw any more than you guys do, it will spoil things for me as I come up the ladder (I'm a career-changer). It will drive regional salaries down even further and regional is where I planned to build time for a large corporate/charter gig. But at the same time I will never attack anyone personally over the issue and I will never begrudge someone providing for their family however they see fit. That's just juvenile.

You guys are perhaps a little out of touch. It's a new world out there in the airline industry and if you wanna move in it you gotta adjust. You don't have to like it (I don't ... I wanted to make $250K per year flying international wide-bodies with a blazer and white gloves, too) but you will have to accept it eventually. Caveman, and a few others, speak to the reality of life in the business nowadays. It ain't pretty ... but you don't have to do it. You vote with your feet.

Minh

 

[B1900DFO]

While I detest everything that Freedumb represents I must say that there is some poetic justice to the whole situation. For years Mesa has been screwing the US Wo's out of rj flying. Mesa was awarded the US flying due to the fact that they were the cheapest thing around. They trailed the wo's in operational performance and as a whole Mesa pilots were far less experienced (I won't mention the Va thing). However the Pdt, Alg, Psa pilots refused to work for wages that they considered insulting and, consequently, were passed up. Mesa as a company has carved its niche in the industry by consistently underbidding the competition.

Now we find a group of pilots with even less self respect and the mesa pilots cry foul. The one thing I don't get is how Freedumb underbid mesa. They must be working for 7 days off a month and $14,000 to start. Maybe Jo offered them room and board, a small weekly allowance, and all the beer you can drink. I wouldn't be surprised if Ornstein offers to shut down Freedumb in exchange for another substandard contract out of Mesa. I'm sure the mesa guys would go for it.

Jetdriven;
People like you who think that having kids and a mortgage is some lavish luxury are not helping this industry. Bus drivers, garbadge men, fast food managers, teachers, all these people can afford kids and a mortgage. Now wouldn't you think that someone jointly responsible for a $20million dollar aircraft and 50 lives should be able to make a mortgage payment. You guys are low-balling the industry beyond belief and now complain when somebody has the audacity to welcome an even lower standard of living. That's supposed to be your gig, right?

 

[lionflyer]

Guys, Guys, Guys!
This is what I think. Mesa needs to go on strike as soon as they legally can. With all that's going on with JO, if that's not an impass, I don't know what is. The sooner you strike, the better... Why?

Freedom won't be big enough to handle all of Mesa's flying.

We will see for sure if Freedom and its pilots will fly struck routes.

 

[frankbama]

you want to strike at a time when aviation is bad already? let us drive away the few airline passengers we do have when times are bad-- like the dockworkers shutting down shipping in a bad economy if you need to strike then strike but that should be the the last resort not a knee-jerk reaction. you may be furious at management but your money comes from the flying public don't drive them away.

 

[jetdriven]

Jetdriven: People like you who think that having kids and a mortgage is some lavish luxury are not helping this industry. Bus drivers, garbadge men, fast food managers, teachers, all these people can afford kids and a mortgage. Now wouldn't you think that someone jointly responsible for a $20million dollar aircraft and 50 lives should be able to make a mortgage payment. You guys are low-balling the industry beyond belief and now complain when somebody has the audacity to welcome an even lower standard of living. That's supposed to be your gig, right?

"people like you"? Excuse me? Thats a pretty broad brush you paint with, B1900FO. I never said having kids and a mortgage was a luxury. But you should never put yourself into a position you cannot get out of. For me I sold my car and cancelled all my subscriptions, cancelled cable, sold our "good" car, and aggressively lowered every credit card interest rate, consolidated and restructured debt, etc.
My point being you should not sit around and whine about how you cannot pay your bills and lose everything then point the blame at me. And dont take my job. I am working at a commuter, something most of you left for a job at the majors. now that you're furloughed dont come back here to mesa and expect j4j type super seniority or anything else. you start at the bottom, like everyone else hired here.
Your obligations are not more important than mine.

 

[D8drvr]

Finally,

My point has finally become apparent to some (now I know who really knows the history, and the industry). The same tactics that Mesa (the management, but the pilots benefited from it) has used to undercut many other airlines (mostly the USAir WO's) has come back to haunt them. The senior Mesa pilots enjoy positions gained off the backs of Allegheny pilots (they knew where the flying was coming from when they took the job, they also knew the difference in pay scales and work rules), now the Freedom is giving them a taste of their own attitudes.

Mesa is still planning growth (half of 20 RJs is still an INCREASE of 10 RJs). Their problem with Freedom is that want it all, all their own flying, all the AWA flying, all the USAirways flying. I'm sure, if asked, Mesa would do all the regional flying, for every airline, in the country, and if this caused other companied to go out of business, so be it. They would enjoy their seniority, and say the other airlines didn't understand the real world economics.

You know, I've heard that AWA would like to fly the 70/90 seat RJs themselves. Since they are ALPA, I'm sure Mesa supports this position. The right thing to do, for the industry as a whole, would be for the Mesa pilots to REFUSE to fly any AWA flying, thus forcing AWA to do the flying in house.

 

[D8drvr]

JetDriven said
"Your obligations are not more important than mine."

And your job is not more important than mine.



Who has the "me first" attitude?