Freedomb all ready taking Mesa flights

[FL717]

Wow, after reading this thread I just couldn't keep out of the discussions. First thought is to Rush Limbaugh.... I believe your opinion would be 180 degrees if you ever worked at a non-union company, or even a union company with horrible workrules. Being union does not necessarily mean ALPA (contrary to some peoples corrolation of the two). ALPA just happens to be the biggest.

Second thought I had was regarding pilots not aware of Freedom Air and industry labor issues. It is extremely important that if you work in this industry, you must keep up on a wide range trade issues, which includes FAR's, NPRM's, Notams, employment options, industry "standard" work rules, pay, etc. etc. You would seek out all available information and advice on a particular company before you worked there wouldn't you? So if you are doing what you really should in this industry, you would have found out exactly what was going on at Mesa to there pilots.

I do NOT get into name calling on this board as if I was still in elementary school. I never use the 4 letter s -word even when I was at ALPA, even though I always played by the rules (contract) that I was paying dues for. Besides that definition does NOT fit the Freedom operation.. period. I won't call the pilots at Freedom scum. That is also juvenille. This is more about management. All labor/management issues and circumvents like this are instigated by management. There are people(labor) who have there own lives to live and manage and they will always put themselves and their families first, over that of any organization or co-workers. And while I would choose to not do that, they are always the minority, and Freedom will never get the non-union workforce necessary to reach any real business stature. By real business stature.. I mean the size of Mesa. It just won't happen.

 

[skybuda]

And to make things even better, Mesa CLX new hire classs. (Which one of my friends was in) So what does he get within and hour. That is right a call from Freedom, "If you want a flying job we can get you into freedom, or you can take your chances on Mesa latter" I have to get it to this guy, he truned then down cold. But since he already quite his job, and traveled to ICT for the ground school I know it had to be a hard decision.

The thing that really pissed him off is how did his name and number got to freedom since he had never sent anything over to them. Come on JO explane this on to us, you have said that these are two seperate companys, then why are you sending stuff from one to the other. I dont see American in its hay days CLX a class and then Delta calling them and offerring them a class.

When JO was asked to why the class was CLX. "we are down sizing the 1900 fleet" So if you know that you were going to down size why give there guys a day or two notice, or a date at all.

Sounds like we got another CCAir in the making.

SB

 

[DarnNearaJet]

Being ignorant of labor issues and the history of labor in the airline industry is as detrimental to your career as lack of systems/FAR knowledge. However you may feel about it -- it is true.

Just ask the 600-hour wonders who got a dream job with EAL in the late 1980's or with UAL in 1985.

 

[vere76]

A comment from JO


Mesa will not shut down. We will become a very successful leasing company.
That issue was discussed and fully supported by the Board at last week's
meeting. Do not underestimate our resolve to do the right thing. And being
held hostage is not the "American way" as I know it.

 

[tintube]

Limbaugh wrote: "Do you ALPA disciples actually expect dudes to turn down a job flying jets because ALPA doesn't approve of the carrier? YGTBSM!!!


----ALPA WOULD approve of Freedom as long as the flying is done by MESA pilots from Mesa seniority list including our pilots from CCAIR.
MESA is currently in contract negotioation and this is nothing other than a try to break down our Union.

"Now that Freedom is flying, I'd gladly buy a ticket. I'm sure they're cheaper since all unions do is suck the life out of companies and make them charge more for a mediocre product."

---Cheaper??!!!! What dream-world do you live in? Some people are going to get rich, and belive me, it is not going to be their pilots. Belive a first year F/O flying up to a 90 SEATER WILL MAKE LESS THAN $21- / HR.......How about leaving your Millitary career for that amount of $....

 

[Rush Limbaugh]

Very Good Post! You should do us all a favor and never work for a unionized carrier.

Favor granted. I not only never want to work for a unionized carrier but I never want to work for any carrier. I'd be happier taking my retirement and playing golf everyday than working with whiny little union biotches. I graduated from Jr. High more than 20 years ago, I don't need to go back regarless of how much I get paid.

The ironic thing is that the name of the airline is Freedom. Here we are in a country that proclaims freedom around the world and a childish union is trying to block an airline from competing in an open market because it doesn't approve of management for whatever stupid reason. It's called capitalism. I suggest you get used to it because I, along with several million other great Americans are willing to put our lives on the line to ensure it's here to stay.

So don't worry about ever having to share a cockpit with me because my kind of airplanes only have one seat. If I ever have the urge to fly heavy airplanes (and I doubt I will), I'll do it in the non-union military.

 

[eaglefly]

Right 717. Lets not blame the pilots who KNOWINGLY accepted flying positions at a carrier under these circumstances. They better plan on retiring there and living in their domicile.

....and JO has the stones to say it is "unamerican" to hold his company(s) hostage.

Which is ironically the VERY same behavior he is using to "break" unions and ratchet down pilot salaries and working conditions to the lowest level in order to MAXIMIZE his wealth.

DISPICABLE individual, IMO.

...You seem to have found your carrier of choice. A well known haven for EAL scabs who gave nothing to the profession, just sucked as much sap from the trunk as possible and flew on.....

You fly away now Starling....Fly,Fly,Fly.

 

[tintube]

Rush: "Here we are in a country that proclaims freedom around the world and a childish union is trying to block an airline from competing in an open market because it doesn't approve of management for whatever stupid reason."

I guess you are refering workers right to fair negotiation under Railroad Act as stuipd. Great going!!!
There are some countries in the world where workers have no rights.Are you claiming that is the way to go?

 

[bigD]

DarnNearaJet - you're preaching to the choir, man. I agree, every aspiring professional pilot should have a solid grasp of the labor situation in the industry. That's a big reason I hang around here, and even sometimes interrupt a heated debate on scope or whatever else to ask a dumb question like, "What's a WO?" (yes, I asked that once!)

But I'd bet that more than half of the CFI's out there building time for an eventual regional spot don't think to do the research - their priority is just getting a job. Any job. Especially for a struggling CFI that is also supporting a family. And to me, this is a problem. The only way to put pressure on an airline like Freedom is to convince any pilot worth a sh*t to work someplace else. As long as Freedom has a pool of pilots willing to fly their planes whatever the cost - they're going to hold the advantage.

So it seems to me that pilots worried about airlines like Freedom need to be proactive about getting the word out to everyone about this kind of thing.

 

[frankbama]

any suggestions on where to educate ourselves on thes matters there are so many labor negotiations going on that i couldn't possibly keep up with who's mad at who and why these complaints never end
these message boards are very one sided and they should be because they are peoples opinions. does anyone have any good references because i would like to know more about this
i won't be sending my resume to mesa or freedom any time soon because the employees there are miserable and the pay is bad thats a perfectly good reason not to work there and this is also why pilots are lining up around the block at Skywest because being happy at work is priceless.
but i always understood this issue as mesa wanted more rj's and alpa wanted mainline guys to fly them at senior pay so jo said fine i'll start another company i know thats simplistic but thats why i'm asking for a better source

 

[152SIC]

Being somewhat ignorant to the entire union non-union argument, please correct me if I am off-base: Several posters claim that Freedom Air pilots are to blame for various grievances. However, several years ago when I was granted interviews at "unionized" commuters the salary offered to me was laughable. So I never accepted these jobs since I felt that my experience and skills were worth more than what was comparable to a McDonalds worker. Now I am not trying to slam commuter pilots AT ALL!! But before we "call the kettle black," we should maybe examine all facets of the issue and realize that perhaps a lot of us are to blame for accepting employment under less that acceptable wage conditions.

That's kinda how I feel. I would NEVER work for Freedom Air either, so I am not sympathizing with JO.

 

[causingtrouble]

I know I'm going to get trashed for this, but I'll say it anyway. Freedom Air pilots are competing with ALPA pilots in what is known as the free market. Yes, that still exists in the US and yes they can do that if they want. Its competition, not back stabbing. As was said above, its barely any different than any regional airline. After all, if Delta could fly 50 seat CRJ's cheaper than COMAIR, they would. So COMAIR pilots are competing for Delta's money with Delta's pilots. Yes, I said it, COMAIR and Freedom Air aren't all that different. Just keep in mind that any body working at any job in this or any other industry is working the best job they could get. If these pilot's could get a job at United or American I'm sure they'd skip Freedom Air. But, because they can't get jobs at majors, they are going to fly for Freedom.

Second, I'm getting very tired of the socialistic attitude that ALPA takes. I work at Mesaba and I'm getting tired of hearing "Our Profits." Our profits are our paychecks. The rest goes to Mesaba. We have no claim to any of that money. Yes, we deserve more money, but at this rate, it will all go to Big Sky because our ALPA reps don't know the difference between negotiating and suicide. I'm also tired of being strong armed into supporting the union. Our latest message from the union said something to the effect that if we don't march in the informational picketing then we are horrible people. That's great, now if I don't march then I'll be black listed. Oh well. Guess I'll be black listed because I'm not going give in to strong arm tactics. Until Friday I supported them. Now Freedom Air looks like a better company than Mesaba.

 

[D8drvr]

It sounds to me like some MESA pilots have forgotten the beginnings of their own company. FloridaGulf started as a non-union carrier. It bought half the assests of Allegheny Airlines, an ALPA carrier. This caused Allegheny/ALPA pilot to lose their jobs. Alot of current "senior" MESA pilots got their jobs on the backs of Allegheny pilots. It sounds like Freedom and JO are doing to you the same thing you did to Allegheny pilots. (You did research the industry before you took that FloridaGulf job 10 years ago. Right?) How does it feel?

 

[frankbama]

employers used to force employees to do things they didn't want to under questionable circumstance, so some brave folks risked their lives and started unions. now those unions have so much power who protects us from them?
they've become like women "can't live with them can't live without them"

 

[DruDown]

I agree, pilots as a whole are to blame for the horrible pay and work rules we currently operate by - afterall we DID accept the jobs and the terms that came with the jobs. SOme guys even paid to get the jobs. As far as Freedumb is concerned, this is a moot point. Here we have individuals, we even have names and pictures, who have deliberately , knowingly, pre-mediatedly taken action against the entire regional airline pilot group by accepting a job at a company whos' sole purpose is to undermind the regional pilots' unions, the industry as a whole. There is no comparison, there is no justification. All the family stuff, personal gain garbage, screw it, it means nothing in the reality of things. The reality is we have an industry that needs help, not threats. We need unity of some kind, not segregation. We need everyone to stand their ground, not run off to the next best thing to save themselves.

By accepting a job at Freedumb, these guys have put up a giant middle finger to every regional airline pilot out there. They have definitely showed that they are weak-minded, have no loyalties and do not have a spine - truthfully, I wouldn't want to share a cockpit with one of those guys.

And don't start knocking Mesa all around. Truthfully, and I think we all know this, everyone hates their company, everyone has problems with management, scheduling, etc. It is no different anywhere else, it's just frame of reference. Even people at SkyWest are unhappy. They are starting to find out how important representation and protection are as their management is beginning to "aviod" issues as they come up. Don't let anyone fool you, it's the same anywhere. We are all undervalued, underappreciated, and overworked - the only way changes will be made is to stick together, fight together, and not continue to allow selfish, self-centered, spineless pilots obtain jobs in our industry, or let the ego of managements try to circumvent the system.

How do we educate other pilots? That's is each and every one of ours personal responsibility. Most of us here are airline pilots. We are the ones aspiring pilots come to speak to, to learn from, to get advice. It is our responsibility to educate them. DOn't let them fly for free. Don't let them pay for training, don't let them even think about jobs like Freedumb. We got ourselves into this mess, we need to get ourselves out of this mess.