Freedom Air?

[SquirrelDog]

I heard the call sign " Freedom Air" the other day out West. Does anyone know if this is the Infamous non-union new mesa start up? And how many pilots do they have online and who are they.

Squirreldog

 

[jetdriven]

yep you just heard freedom "scumbag" air. they have 100-120 pilots and seven airframes.
Congratulate them for helping to break mesa'a union. wait until we get those 700's back here at mesa, it might take a while to get the rat smell out of the cockpits, but we'll manage.

 

[trainerjet]

I thought I read somewhere on this board that they use the call sign "Cisco" or something like that??

 

[bluestreakk]

Freedom Airlines Pilot List

This was posted on our ALPA site, thought I would pass it along:

Below is a list of current Freedom Airlines pilots as of 1/14/03. This list is circulating among all the ALPA carriers. Many Freedom Airlines pilots are attempting to jumpseat with their old Mesa ID's. These pilots are NOT Mesa Airlines pilots and if they are using a Mesa ID then they are doing so in a fraudulent manner.
Freedom Airlines currently employs 110 pilots. Currently PSA does not have a jumpseat agreement with Freedom Airlines.


OH and BTW...I am a complete idiot for even trying to post pilots name on this website. I am now banned from using the board for posting peoples names. I am such a complete idiot......how can I even think about being a captain when I stoop so low to post peoples names.

 

[Lumber Yak]

Why would these pilots want to ruin their future airline careers by joining a non-ALPA (scab) airline?

Yes, putting FOOD on the table and paying RENT is important - money could be the absolute driver of the decision... But I am sure they could qualify for other flying positions out there (e.g., Netjets, Chataqua, Part 91 corporate). Do they realize they are being black-listed? Why do it then?

They better like the CRJ-700/900 because they will be flying that for the rest of their careers...

Any Freedom pilots out there BRAVE enough to respond?

I wish everyone luck in this tough environment - but I wish people had considered the implications of their choices...

 

[embdrvr]

I can understand a guy really needing a job to pay the rent and buy food. Hey, many of us have been there. Chances are you could make more money waiting tables than you would first year at Freedom. Construction jobs are out there. Man I can remember helping a guy frame an interior addition in Florida. Talk about a workout. That was a 2 pound a day weight loss program. Most in this business have a pretty good memory when it comes to issues like this. I can't imagine what some of these folks are thinking, especially the guys that left Mesa for Freedom. Some kid coming up through MAPD might not know any better but anyone who has been at Mesa or any airline for that matter, should know better. That's OK. We'll have 100+ blacklisted guys that won't be competing against us for a job at a major when things turn around.

 

[Jeepman]

There's a Freedom guy that lives in Rapid City S.D.

He jumpseated on us one time using his old MESA i.d.
We asked him what he flew & he said he was going to the 50 seat RJ. After the flight we saw a list we realized he was Freedom.
He's white in his mid 40's with balding hair. I realize were not union, but these guys represent a threat to every regional out there by underbidding for contracts!!

 

[jergar999]

Jeepman, do you live in Rapid City? Or fly into it?

 

[captjim]

bluestreak, shame on you for believing in something! Shame on you for having the gumption for not being gutless, shame on you for being unified! You are a disgrase to every pilot in the industry for standing up to injustice! Shame on you. I hope you don't say God Bless America in public; you might offend someone!

 

[328dude]

If anybodys interested in getting a current list of Freescum Pilots, PM me and leave your email address. I'll send it to you ASAP to add to your flight bag.

BlueStreak. Good going man. Got to love the moderators.

Anybody want to start up a website to keep a current list of the Freedom scum on it for pilots to download? Just curious.

 

[becket]

when did it become a crime to be the lowest bidder? Mesa has done it for decades. There is nothing wrong with freedom.

 

[Frac Daddy]

Does it strike anyone else as ironic when a Freedom pilot says he/she is taking that job to "feed his/her family." I mean, who can afford to feed a family on Freedom's pay? It would seem to me that if I needed to "feed my family" I would not accept a job whose pay was so low that I could not afford to do that very thing! This is why that argument doesn't hold water. (Unless, of course, the intend to "feed their family" by qualifying for food stamps.)

 

[eaglefly]

The same rational a scab uses as he walks through your picket line.

 

[Visceral]

I don't think I understand this very well. Are Mesa pilots on strike now? If not, you guys are tossing around the scab name and it doesn't apply. If these guys aren't unionized, how do they differ from Skywest or CommutAir? Delta owns ASA and COMAIR and their pilots don't get paid the same. Sure, the Freedom guys aren't doing much to push up wages, but does that make them eligible to be blacklisted. Why not add all the other low pay carriers pilots too?

 

[azpilot]

If anybodys interested in getting a current list of Freescum Pilots, PM me and leave your email address. I'll send it to you ASAP to add to your flight bag.

BlueStreak. Good going man. Got to love the moderators.

Anybody want to start up a website to keep a current list of the Freedom scum on it for pilots to download? Just curious.

This already exists:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/freemesaairlinesforum/

The list is kept up to date in the files section.

 

[Wiggums]

Does it strike anyone else as ironic when a Freedom pilot says he/she is taking that job to "feed his/her family." I mean, who can afford to feed a family on Freedom's pay?

Just for the sake of the argument, don't Freedom pilots make 5% more then Mesa RJ pilots?

 

[Beechnut]

They may make more than Mesa's 50 pilots, but their aircraft have 70 seats. AirWisconsin (and I imagine that would include ACA, SkyWest and Comair) make more in their 50 seats than Freedum makes in their 70. THAT is bad.

S.

 

[skybuda]

Yea the freedom pilots might make 5% more but that is just the captians. The FO use the same low payscale as the mesa pilots do. There is that outside chance that they will get there bounes is the company makes money but with JO track record dont plan on much. Or not that I think about it they will show a large profit and just shift all the losses over to mesa, that way he will have a reason to lay off more of us, or I should say lays off people again.

SB

 

[Wiggums]

Yeah, but my point is that there is some validity to the "feed the family" reason to work for Freedom. If one had a choice between Mesa or Freedom, one would be better off financially going to Freedom. What about if one had to choose between instructing and working at Freedom?

 

[Lumber Yak]

Wiggums,

You TOTALLY miss the point. If you work for Freedom, then you better want to STAY there for the rest of your career. Sure, the CRJ-700/900 is a great airplane to fly - and you would become proficient in it because that is the LAST airplane you will fly. Do you understand? Once you go to Freedom - that's it for your career because you are implicitly supporting an anti-ALPA airline. I'd rather instruct in a Duchess for an extra year or two and then move my career forward...

If you go to Freedom, don't expect to leave and get on with a major... That's the point.

 

[becket]

Lumberyak,

I think you totally over estimate the power of Alpa. Freedom pilots will be going to any major when they start hiring again. Then again, most of the captains are furloughed major pilots and they'll just be returning. Who is going to police who gets called for an interview. Bona Fide Eastern scabs are everywhere, Continental scabs were welcomed back with open arms. Alpa is an impotent, back stabbing, "senior centric" entity whose effectivness has been void for a very long time. This idea of a Freedom "blacklist for life" is laughable.

 

[Shag_McNasty]

becket,

Please stop interjecting wisdom into these posts. I love hearing how these militant bad@ss regional pilots are going to destroy the careers of Freedom pilots. LOL.

 

[Snakum]

Just a brief word about the issue with lists and jumpseats from a non-airline type ...

First, I should say that when I spoke to the PACE people at Mesa pre-9/11 to discuss prospects for actually getting a job there afterwards, I was told that there was a new airline in the works at Mesa that would just about guarantee me a job after successfully completing PACE. So I guess if I'd actually gone - and I was VERY close to going - I coulda been sitting in the right seat of a CRJ700 instead of sitting in this office. Ignorance, at the time, was bliss. If I had the opportunity now (not an issue because I'm broke now) I don't think I could do it because I support (to an EXTENT) organized labor and it appears in this case Freedom was indeed created with the intent to eventually try to do away with Mesa and cut everyone elses throat even deeper. I'm all about capitalism, but this situation kinda stinks.

OK now ... about the ramifications ...

Getting on with a major - It is my understanding that many on the list are furloughed US Air mainline. I have a hard time believing that Freedom on a resume will sink you automatically. There are just too many pilots on the BIG list that are currently working at majors (airlines other than the one where they made the list), most hired when ALPA was stronger than today. I have spoken to major airline pilots over the years about the SCAB question and without exception, it was regarded as not that big of a deal with the pilots I spoke too. That one just doesn't compute based on what I know.

Jumpseating - I have spoken to two people who are actually on the BIG list, one in person and one via email, and I was told that neither of them have ever been denied a jumpseat in 20 years of flying. I was told they HAVE been lectured on the issue, but have always ridden. So I'm not sure jumpseating will be much of an issue after the initial commotion over Freedom has subsided. Sure, some have already been denied the seat, but I don't think that will be a regular occurance. Again, based on what I know it just doesn't compute.

In short, guys on the BIG list have experienced few problems over the years, and at Continental a couple hundred of them are back in ALPA. So what does that really mean for a pilot who has never crossed a line, only took a job with an unpopular company?

I'm not defending Freedom, nor would I work there. But not for the reasons you guys are stating over and over. It just doen't compute.

Minh "Coulda Been On The List" Thong

 

[embdrvr]

Jumpseating - I have spoken to two people who are actually on the BIG list, one in person and one via email, and I was told that neither of them have ever been denied a jumpseat in 20 years of flying.

Freedom has been specifically excluded from the jumpseat list at Mesa, America West, Sky West, and ASA. That is not an all-inclusive list, just one that I compied because I know pilots from those airlines and asked them. If you're not on the list you probably won't even get past the gate agent like you used to be able to do pre 9/11.
Hopefully all ALPA airlines will remove Freedom from their list.

 

[got_jumpseat?]

There's a Freedom guy that lives in Rapid City S.D.

He jumpseated on us one time using his old MESA i.d.
We asked him what he flew & he said he was going to the 50 seat RJ. After the flight we saw a list we realized he was Freedom.
He's white in his mid 40's with balding hair. I realize were not union, but these guys represent a threat to every regional out there by underbidding for contracts!!

I wont post their names but I know of actually two or maybe three Rapid City SD Freedom pilots. Just make sure you follow your companies rules regarding the FAR's and the cockpit jumpseat. I just saw on ALPA.org a reciprocal cockpit jumpseat deal is about to be approved by the TSA by the end of January and I would hate for a freedom pilot to botch it up for everybody all over again for another two years. If they won't have it hard enough already that would be the cake. Make sure they use their proper ID. Allowing them to ride is your discretion.

 

[got_jumpseat?]

Here is the info on the JS
http://www.alpa.org/alpa/DesktopModules/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=1587

I wont post their names but I know of actually two or maybe three Rapid City SD Freedom pilots. Just make sure you follow your companies rules regarding the FAR's and the cockpit jumpseat. I just saw on ALPA.org a reciprocal cockpit jumpseat deal is about to be approved by the TSA by the end of January and I would hate for a freedom pilot to botch it up for everybody all over again for another two years. If they won't have it hard enough already that would be the cake. Make sure they use their proper ID. Allowing them to ride is your discretion.

 

[Jeepman]

when did it become a crime to be the lowest bidder? Mesa has done it for decades. There is nothing wrong with freedom.

I'll remember that when I am going to some payday loan place because I don't make any money flying a 70/90 seat RJ where the pay is nothing because our company is competing with airlines like Freedom.


To those who think that SkyWest is like Freedom, I fail to see how because we didn't walk all over our fellow coworkers who were laid off to go work for Free-dumb Air (Free for management, dumb for pilots)

 

[WileE]

With regards to their future.

The doubts that some folks have raised that Freedom pilots are sinking their own careers strikes me as naive. If you go to an airline interview, you are not being interviewed by some vague "company" that will be hiring you. At some point in the process you will be sitting down across the table from a pilot at that company that is also a member of the union that represents that carriers pilots. He knows your name before he sits down at the table across from you.

By flying for Freedom now, anyone who thinks they will get on with a major later are gambling that that pilot across the table isn't going to spend the 15 seconds to pull out a piece of paper with the list of Freedom names on it and crosscheck. Any chance of getting on with that airline lies in the hands of that interviewer. When hiring resumes again, and it will, there will be thousands of qualified applicants for those jobs. The last thing you want is any kind of black mark that will make them choose the other guy. Right now and for the foreseeable future, Freedom is going to be about the biggest black mark you can possibly have on your resume.

I can see those two drunk America West guys getting picked up again if it came down to a choice between them and a former Freedom pilot.

Freedom's not going to be around very long and these guys have already done serious damage to their careers. When it finally goes down the Mesa guys will probably have to accept them back into their seniority list (reluctantly and with a lot of grumbling) but no one else has to.

 

[climbhappy]

the real issue

isn't the real issue the FACT that major airlines have lowered ticket prices 15 to 20 percent since the dropoff and 9/11....and further.....are now trying to reduce all business fares to match the LCC's.....isn't the real problem the screwed up pricing practices of every airlines sales/marketing dept......

if a widget cost 5 dollars to make, then you have to charge 7 dollars to ensure profits and cover overhead.... if you charge three dollars .... you end up in bankruptsy....

adapting to change is the key to survival in business... since demand hasn't been stimilulted again yet, then your company as well as mine better run a tight ship if we're to be around in five years.

at some point predatory pricing practices end up spelling doom for the perpetrator..... just be patient

 

[Simon Says]

To All Mesa Pilots:

I cannot wait for those freedom guys to show up in MEM. I got some questions that I would love to ask them all. Anyways, keep up the fight, we here at XJ are with you.