Free speech is a beautiful thing.

[Traumahawk]

No this is the best part. I'm one of many Americans that has the gift of detecting when someone is LYING to me.

And it's personal, because people are in danger, they are being injured and killed, away from loved ones, over something that is more than questionable. This is not a secret. And it's not brain surgery.

But it is wrong.

 

[FN FAL]

United States Code of Federal Regulations, Title 28, Part II, Chapter 40, Section 592, Paragraph (g).

If you got proof, write your freaking Congressman...

 

[blingair]

United States Code of Federal Regulations, Title 28, Part II, Chapter 40, Section 592, Paragraph (g).

If you got proof, write your freaking Congressman...

Where'd I put my USCFR?

 

[FN FAL]

Where'd I put my USCFR?

HTFSIK? Google it...it's public domain.

 

[blingair]

HTFSIK? Google it...it's public domain.

GLTIOH. Sorry, I'm busy watching Iron Chef. People aren't going to spend their own time looking up lawyer talk to prove your point but I dedicate my next Sierra Nevada Pale Ale to Mr. Foul. Peace on earth and kill 'em all.

 

[LXApilot]

Those pesky weapons of mass destruction

Art Spander said that the great thing about democracy is that it gives every voter the chance to do something stupid. In this case, over 62 million voters in the last presidential election had their opportunity. As if the bone chilling, mind numbing experience of his first four years were not enough, American's went to the poll's and asked for another term of Bushisms, service men returning home in body bags, and an ever more determined militant foe.

The marvel of all history is the patience with which men and women submit to burdens unncessarily laid upon them by their governments. We have each sacrificed a little of our personal freedoms, our dignity, and our way of life as Americans. But naer does the populace speak in fear of being called a 'traitor', 'unpatriotic', and dare I say 'LIBERAL!'. What a fun catch-em-all phrase the koolaid drinking clan uses to silence it's opposition.

Thomas Jefferson implored all American's to continuously question and openly debate their government. Of course, he had to have been a liberal- right? He certainly would have been today. It's a 4 letter word touted by the right as a dirty stigma that just makes one creep with the negative conotation it implies. Only a liberal would hate his government enough to want to question it's decisions, evaluate the reliability of it's information, and seek to know the true motivations of it's leaders. - Right??? You know when people feel confused, when people are frustrated with themselves because they have no real reasonable argument with which to support their Bush clan- they tend to want to revert to that old all too used phrase 'Well, I'd rather have Bush than Kerry.' or 'I think President Bush is the greatest President in recent history, and those who don't stand behind him are unpatriotic'. And so the majority of American's let our servicemen come home in urns and bags and speak nothing but support for the President. We live in a society rampant with fear. Fear of muslims terrorists, fear of blacks, fear of AIDS, fear of violence in schools, fear of anti-sematics, and the list goes on and on. But what we should all fear is a government which does not feel a need to explain itself truthfully, that directly lies to it's constituents, and outrages the International community with it's Texas Sheriff bully on the block mentality. And why do they feel they can do these things without reprisal from the American public? The terrorists of course, those evil sand people camel riders from 'over yonder' that like to fly airliners into major financial markets. Just the notion strikes a deep seated fear into the hearts of the American citizen who watched Daniel Pearl's execution once too many times on the internet at home- but didn't need to- because they saw 9/11 happen in front of them on their tv set. Terrorist you say Mr. Bush? Well then, I blindly pledge my allegience to you sir!

So far there have been three of my closest and dearest friends who have served their country in the Iraqi theatre of operations. 1 USAF pilot and 2 USMC grunts. 2 of them saw actual combat - their emotions and feelings on the subject of their deployment is mixed. They luckily have survived or have returned home unscathed physically. But their comrades are shipped home FedEx daily. I often wonder how I would have reacted if they had been killed in action. Truthfully, I would feel very cheated by our government. That they sent one of our American servicemen into harms way based on lies, deciet, and the breeding fear of America. They are patriotic and very dedicated people - just normal American's who love their country - but they can never fully explain what it is exactly that 'we' are doing there. It's not a question easily answered, but oh how much easier it would be if they were serving in Afghanistan and not Iraq. "We're stopping terrorism and hunting Al Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden" they could trumpet. Not that their actions are any less brave in Iraq, but that they lack a real purpose- and survive on manufactured isms to justify their presence as occupiers in a foreign country.

Now for the inevidable question - "what would you do Mr. Savestheworld bleeding heart tree hugging liberal?"

First of all... I am a liberal. But what I am NOT, is a card carrying ACLU radical. To use a Bush Sr. 'ism'. The question here is a wholehearted- I don't know. We're in too far and it is too real for me to even suggest a proper course of action. But what I will say is this - President Bush lied to the American public. The Bush administration is responsible for some of the most vile and infringing persecution and legislation since the days of Abraham Linclon and his original dictatorship and aggresive military policy. Imagine if Mr. Clinton would have sent 1,700 American soliders to their deaths- there would have been a lynching on the White House lawn. Like it or not, we as American's have a duty to question our government and hold it responsible for it's actions. Be brave- do your duty as a citizen- question your government- demand the truth- but always be willing to reasonably listen to the opposition. Remember, George Bush Sr once said "don't confuse being soft with seeing the other guys point of view."

It's time we get sick of hearing the same tune. WMD or not, let's finish the job in Iraq and bring our boys home, let's stop supporting Israel and their tyranical government, let's concentrate on defending America from the real terrorist - the European and Chinese economic muscle depressing our currency and taking our jobs away. Let's fight a war worth fighting in Afghanistan against muslim terrorists, in the Sudan against genocide, and in South America against the drug king pins who poison our youth. Why don't our politicians get tough on border protection, economic stabilization, international nuclear proliferation, and poverty? Lets ease environmental guidelines to help oil companies build more refineries, start drilling for oil in Alaska, and for God's sake- let's stop electing mindless twits so that we can regain some international respect and build that empire I've heard you guys talking about? America isn't a machine that operates itself. We as citizens choose it's path- and we have been asleep at the wheel. Now let's pick a course of action, and do it!

 

[Foldem]

Innocent Iraqis are dead. We killed them, and I doubt their relatives care about voting anymore. And don't pretend it's unintentional, we drop bombs into cities where there are people just like you and me. They put bombs made out of coffee cans on the side of roads and kill people just like you and me. We're no different, just a bigger budget. And it isn't terrorism if anyone attacks a military target. Sorry, but words like terrorism have definitions.

You'll have to be more realistic, about what and whom we've supported. We help bad people kill innocent (and guilty) people. If you're going to justify this by saying that's the price of doing business, think what a Saudi businessman would claim as he signs a check to Al Qaeda.



Yes, our soldiers are very brave and well intentioned. Read a poll, the Iraqis regard Jacques Chirac (not my favorite individual, but the leading international figure against this war) in a more favorable light than Bush. In fact, apart from Saddam Hussein himself, they prefer just about anybody else. But, the leaders of this country and those that follow them know better don't they? We want the Iraqis to be self governing, but apparently can't trust their opinion.

My point is, the people whom you claim to be saving don't want us there.
Most of the guerrillas who are attacking our soldiers are ending up as Iraqis who don't want us there.
Who are we to force our will upon them?

ps- And, no, a Democract would have done no different or better.

 

[Foldem]

An answer to your question:

The way to prevent terrorism is to stop participating in it.
(Read about the US's first war on terror if you doubt that statement)
The way to stop terrorism is police action.
Hopefully, with international support.
If the US government had set it's aim at stopping terrorism (as opposed to outright invasion and nation building) there would have been more international support and therefore less likely hood of a resistance movement in any country.

War breeds terrorism.

 

[Simon Says]

Of course he is.


There was as much of a tie between Sadam and Al Qaeda as there was between dog sh!t and oranges.

They don't like each other, they stand for different things, they have no interest in one another.

Also, zero weapons. ZERO WMD.
N. Korea...different story.
Iran...different story.

I used to think, hey, don't bullsh!t Americans, they are smart. But when you have people that actually believe we are fighting for freedom in Iraq...hehe...wow. It's amazing.

By the way for all of the Conservatives out there, as you have seen several Republicans admit, it doesn't make you a "liberal" and a "pro-abortionist" or a "leftist" when you come out and say, hey, this guy we elected isn't exactly acting in the BEST interest for Americans. I thought he would, I was wrong.

You can still have your beliefs and political orientation, even after you admit the President is a numb-skull. The past 5 years have been painful to watch. Even more so for people who's children are coming home in Bodybags over this sick excuse for the war on terror.

What we have now is a bath-house for terrorists in Iraq, hundreds and hundreds of dead soldiers and civilians on both the American front, as well as other nations and Iraqis. Oh and this just in, over 50 dead in London. Yep, big help this Iraq war. ANYWHERE ELSE IN THE MIDDLE EAST, ANYWHERE!!!!...would have made more sense than Iraq.

Makes me sick. It's worse when people buy it, in fear of being considered a traitor or un-American. Think about why that is. Brainwashing at it's best.

T-hawk

Hey Traumahawk,
You are way under educated on the WMD. The whole world thought he had them so we went to go get them. So, the whole world was wrong about, but what I want to know how the hell do you know for a fact that Iran and N Korea has WMD. So if we invade them and it turns out they didn't have them then that would be unjust too. You bleading librals kill me.

Go write an editorial on how we deserved 9-11, how Spain desserved their train bombings, and how London deserved their bombings too.

Freedom of speech is a great thing. So go F yourself.

 

[Smacktard]

No this is the best part. I'm one of many Americans that has the gift of detecting when someone is LYING to me.

And it's personal, because people are in danger, they are being injured and killed, away from loved ones, over something that is more than questionable. This is not a secret. And it's not brain surgery.

But it is wrong.

Well damn, if that's the case you must have been going nuts when Clinton was in office. All that lying should have caused your poor, weak little heart to explode.

As for your blanket "it's wrong" statement. Well, it's wrong. There are many valid reasons we are in Iraq. 1700 soliders have lost their lives, but I am confident that their lives are saving civilian lives here and around the world. And quit pretending like you care about the soldiers, the only reason you spout this '1700 brothers, sisters killed' is to take advantage of their loss to further your weak views. Have you ever really talked to any of these soldiers? I was in ATL on the train with 3 that were coming home, they weren't the down-trodden you make them out to be, they were proud of what they've achieved over there. I gathered that in the 30 seconds I talked with them. Quit using their achievements to support your bankrupt argument.

And fine, maybe there wasn't an 'Operational Link' (your definition: Saddam's recorded tape ordering Osama to run with it) between Al Qaeda and Saddam for 9/11 but there were most definitely links (look that up in your commission report). State sponsored terrorism is a b!tch.

The road map for the middle east most certainly starts in Iraq. Isn't it just amazing how things have changed in Isreal, Palestine, Lebanon and Syria? Mere coincidence? W must have bumbled into this amazing development, I'm sure nobody thought that this might be the result. He is, afterall, just a 'C' student (what was his GPA again?), how could such a dunce have actually planned this? Why are liberals so against the everyday Iraqi? You don't want to save them too? The "humanitarian" rationale is usually the liberal mantra. Why isn't that so in this case? Oh, cause saving a nation would make Bush look good.

The fact is we are in Iraq, it isn't the Vietnam that you keep telling us it is (What happened to the tens of thousands of body bags?). As with any war, there are those for and against. You guys were for this before you were against this. You like to claim Bush lied and he's only doing it to fatten the wallets of his rich friends. Yet the Democrats that voted for this used the same intelligence Bush had. When it became obvious that the intelligence wasn't what it was cracked up to be (that's a different discussion as well), Michael Moore and the other twits of the Democratic party decided to come up with the Bush lied routine. I guess if a democrat had been in office he would have immediately pulled out of Iraq, apologized to Sadddam and Osama, and packed up and headed home. Let's let the region fester with hatred until they get their hands on something really powerful, then we can deal with it down the road.

All of this has exactly the same parallel as here at home with Social Security. I noticed you mentioned that earlier with regard to 'Bush's propaganda'. Put off the inevitable and let later generations deal with it. I am thankful that we have a President like Bush that doesn't change his mind at the drop of a public opinion poll. He isn't as 'charasmatic' as Clinton. He does, however, do what he feels is best of the country. He's done more for the middle east than Carter/Clinton combined. The evil scheme to privatize SS was a great idea, so great in fact that before Bush pushed the idea Democratics were tolling its virtues as well. Until Bush was for it, now they're against it.

Thankfully, your opinion is just that, your opinion. Bush will continue to do what he's been saying it would take all along, determination, hard work yadda yadda. It's good to see that he doesn't bail out at the first sign of trouble. More than can be said of you spineless turds on the left.

 

[Foldem]

Wow.

LXApilot

Now there's a republican whose ideas I can understand.
If this were real life (and not petty chattering amongst bored people, myself included) I think you'd be fun to argue with.
Fact based ideas, considerate beliefs.
Don't agree with you entirely, but that isn't the point is it?

I'm guessing isolationist? Pat Buchanan has some points.

Anyhow, I like a 'liberal' opinion that's actually 'liberal'.
(I won't explain the quotes here.)

 

[Smacktard]

Thomas Jefferson implored all American's to continuously question and openly debate their government. Of course, he had to have been a liberal- right? He certainly would have been today.

Perhaps you need to jump back into the history books. A liberal he is not. I love how 'openly debating your government' has been co-opted into a democratic cornerstone....as if politics weren't involved!

‘What has destroyed liberty and the rights of man in every government which has ever existed under the sun?’

Jefferson once wrote to a Virginia congressman while providing his own answer.

‘The generalizing and concentrating of all cares and powers into one body, no matter whether of the autocrats of Russia or France, or of the aristocrats of the Venetian senate.’

 

[Hardknock]

Who gave Howie "the scream-meister" Dean a flightinfo account?

Anyway, your statement is, as Smacktard said, factually incorrect. The 9/11 commission concluded that there was no link between Saddam and 9/11. The commission did not say that there was no link between Saddam and Al Qaeda. The truth is, there were several terrorist training camps for Al Qaeda located within Iraq. Terrorists frequently came to Iraq for medical treatment also because they knew they would get no hassle from Saddam.

spin spin spin.......

 

[Hardknock]

No, we aren't attacking innocent Iraqis. We are attacking terrorists who aim to destroy the fragile democracy that is being built in Iraq. The terrorists are the ones killing the Iraqis with their car bombs and suicide bombers.

Dead Iraqi babies are terrorists?

 

[Hardknock]

You'll have to be more specific. I'm not aware of any U.S. relationship with a terrorist group.

Oh, wow. I don't know maybe one little country called

SAUDI ARABIA?

 

[Hardknock]

I was unaware that a liberal pilot existed... Let me be the first to say that I was for the war in Iraq and not because of the WMD. I knew all along that the gift of freedom and elections is the noble duty of every american. Which is why I support the full invasion of every nondemocratic country in the world... Hey you had me at hello... Go big or stay home lets not half a$$ with one democracy lets hit em all... China, Korea, Iran, the list goes on.
Furthermore I'm happy that we saved the people of Iraq from the WMD's that Saddam was willing to use on them. We should all feel responsible for putting Saddam in power and part of that responsibility is removing him from power... Similar to the Taliban. I vote that we do the same for all of the genocides in Africa. Again go big or stay home.
I'm also glad that this message board caught Syria. After the London bombings I was concerned that we wouldn't have much of a link to anyone we could invade... luckily Syria has stepped up to the plate.
The one thing I will never understand about a guy like Saddam is this... I'm an evil mastermind. I'm the biggest threat since Hitler to the world. The "put a boot in your ass" USA is coming... The first thing I would do is lock and load the WMD's and take everyone down in a blaze of glory... or I would ship them to Syria. I know Hitler wouldn't have shipped to Syria. The face of evil is a tricky one.
I think it is time to show the world that the US of A can do what the Romans, French, British, and countless others could not... Build an empire!

Well, take your a$$ down and sign up with the marines tough guy. They'll be glad to have ya. And when you're fighting N. Korea on their soil and they send a couple over here to nuke the rest of us (cause you know, they really do got 'em) be glad the the smoldering mess you come back to (if you do at all) is your precious America.

 

[KPTO]

Reinstate The Draft And Increase The Age Up To And Including Age 33.
Concription Must Take Allinto Account, The Single And Married, College And Non Degree, Poor And Rich.

This Might Make Us A Little Less Vulnerable To Spin And To Use Aggression As Political Policy. We Are No Different Than Any Other Paranoid Empire Before Us. We Try To Think Of Ourselves As The Greatest Country In History, Good God Fearing Folks Wishing To Do Well For The Rest Of The World. At The Same Time We Live In Paranoid Fear Of Being Destroyed By Some Enemy In Some Hated Conflict Against Us. We Always Have An Enemy Du Jour, Be Spain, Mexico, Germany, Ussr, Pablo Escovar, Gen. Noriega And As Of Lately Bin Laden And Hussein.

For Those Of You Borned In The Late Seventies And Early Eighties And Think That Ron Brought Down The Evil Empire Please Review History And Economics And Not Just Facts. Stop Living In Some Sort Of Public Paranoia. The Truth Is We Screwed With Everyone And Sometimes There Is A Little Political Payback.


As For Terrorism, It Will Always Exist. So As Long As A Larger Force Can Not Be Sucessfully Confronted Directly, Soft Targets Are Valid. Yes This Includes Civilians, Commercial Buildings And Other No Combat Personel. If You Think About It, A Voting Free Public Bears More Reponsability About Its' Goverment Actions Than A Populace Under A Dictatorship. So Killing Our Civilians As A Matter Of Policy Might Be Justifiable But... It Is Not, Is It? Since Some Are Pro Administration And Some Are Not How Would A Terror Man Distinguish Between Them.


About This Idea Of ' In Time Of War.." What War?!!!! Who Are We Fighting This Time That Is Different From Any Other Time. Go Back Thirty Years And Read The Newspaper Accounts Of Our Involvement In Southeast Asia. Who Did We Accused Of Harboring An Enemy, What Were Our Expectations And Ou Fears.

Since No Official State Of War Exist Between The People Of Iraq And The Usa, Are We To Be Considered Enemy Combatants.

Folks The Administration Knew That We Were Staying There For A Long Time. Iraq Has The Biggest Oil Fields Next To Saudi Arabia. The Later's Reserves Have Been Dwindling. Securing A New Safe Source Of Energy Is An Imperative. Please Stop Being So Moralistic About It, Policies Are Either Productive Or Unproductive Based On Probabilities Of Success.


Bring Back The Draft, Viva Che Guevara.

 

[Hardknock]

You can go fight for that biggest oil field next to saudi arabia all you'd like. I'll drive my electric car.

 

[acaTerry]

Also, zero weapons. ZERO WMD.
N. Korea...different story.
Iran...different story.

So we should have waited until there was proof? Like what? A nuclear attackby Iraq? I fought in Khafji in Desert Storm, saw first hand what kind of neighbor Iraq was under Saddam. You can't tell me the world will not be a safer place without him.

Remember we waited for "proff on 07 DEC 1941...Pearl Harbor.

Remember we waited for "proof" until 11 SEP 2001.

Put the crackpipe down...peace had it's chance, and it failed. Notice that the attacks on London came AFTER they backed down? Some reward for peace.

You must have a closet full of tye dies....

 

[KPTO]

And the point about tye dyes was.... Understand the economics behind policy and history and see your place in it. Oh I serve while you were in grammar school kid, so do not drop that iI fought in somewhere crap that was our job.