Free First Officers!

[A Squared]

>>>>>You might have read my post, but you surely do not understand it.

Yes, I understand it completely and thouroughly, I have a full understanding of the rationalization you are attempting.

>>>>>>>>If 'company Y' as we have referred to it, have PERMANENT positions for CAPTAINS, and no PERMANENT f/o positions then utilise f/o's that are doing the hourbuilding courses...then whose job is there to be taken??????????????NOBODY'S There are, in a situation like this, NO F/O POSITIONS FOR PERMANENT CREW. Do you get it now?

I have "got it" right from the start. If Company Y has 5 1900's and 10 crews, that's 10 FO positions which you and your ilk are making unavailable by agreeing to pay to sit in those seats.



>>>Believe it or not, there is a difference in the above two examples.

No, really there isn't. By agreeing to fly for free, you make a paying job disappear, it is really irrelevant whether it was previously held by a paid pilot or an paying pilot.

regards

 

[100LL... Again!]

Too many pilots. Maybe the FAA could raise the 121 FO minimum to1500 hrs. That would go a loooong way to fixin' this.

 

[Timebuilder]

Ok, right, so if I goto Flightsafety and get a Lear rating, its ok. But if I take it a bit further and pay for some hours on type...its not.

Close.

If you want to go out and pay $1500 to $1800 per hour to get some Lear experience with an instructor/captain, more power to you. The PFT part comes in when you are used as a required crewmember, carrying passengers or cargo for hire. In this situation, you are buying the right seat, instead of being paid to do a job in that seat.

There's the rub.

And you can save a bunch of money by doing an initial type at Simcom.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

The PFT situation ebbs and flows with the job market. I was offered a PFT situation about 10 years ago and didn't do it, for a variety of reasons. I believe that, basically, EVERYONE is PFT. If you pay for your PPL, Comm, Inst, you are paying for training. If you go Military, you are paying with years of your life, and many less flying hours per year than many civilian pilots.

To put this in some perspective, this same situation occurs in many other industries (for example, isn't college PFT?).

The one I am most familiar with now is the software/internet/dotcom worker situation in CA.

There are a lot of job offers posted that list qualification after qualification, and years of experience. What's the pay? You are an INTERN! That means, you work 40+ hours/week at NO PAY!

People are jumping at these opportunities, because they have been unemployed for so long. These jobs give them steady employment and the chance to update their skills, which gives them more chances to get the real jobs when they pop up.

There are some websites up which post these ridiculous requirements for a job with no pay. The unemployed software people rip them apart and have fun bitching about the crappy situati0n they're in.

In a lot of ways, it sounds just like flying PFT.

If you're in the situation (in whatever industry) where you may have to PFT to get by, God Bless You, and I hope you can get a paying job soon.

Cliff
GRB

(PS-To get K-12 teaching certification, you need to work full time for one semseter, after you've paid to take a ton of (mostly) worthless classes. The pay for a student teacher? You pay your certifying university for a FULL TIME class load! PFT if I've ever heard of it!!!)

 

[Timebuilder]

I believe that, basically, EVERYONE is PFT. If you pay for your PPL, Comm, Inst, you are paying for training. If you go Military, you are paying with years of your life, and many less flying hours per year than many civilian pilots.

The basic certs are the equivalent of either a high school or college diploma, depending on the type of non-avaition job you are using for comparison. Other training, seminars, etc, are the province of the company for whom you work. When I was a mechanic, my company paid for all of my training and professional certifications, including all 33 ASE certs.

There are a lot of job offers posted that list qualification after qualification, and years of experience. What's the pay? You are an INTERN! That means, you work 40+ hours/week at NO PAY!

I think those jobs are being posted because there aren't enough fools available in the IT industry. Just my opinion.

(PS-To get K-12 teaching certification, you need to work full time for one semseter, after you've paid to take a ton of (mostly) worthless classes. The pay for a student teacher? You pay your certifying university for a FULL TIME class load! PFT if I've ever heard of it!!!)

Sure sounds like something the NEA would agree to. Maybe the idea is to prevent the availability of too many qualified teachers, which would drive down teacher pay and reduce bargaining power.

Clearly, PFT tries to take advantage of young pilots who see this as a way to get ahead. Education can reduce this trend.

 

[JJay]

To get K-12 teaching certification, you need to work full time for one semseter, after you've paid to take a ton of (mostly) worthless classes. The pay for a student teacher? You pay your certifying university for a FULL TIME class load! PFT if I've ever heard of it!!!)

A fundamental difference between student teaching and PFT is that the student teacher does not replace a paid teacher. The student teacher works with the regular class room teacher. It's a mentoring program where the student teacher is constantly evaluated and corrected by the cooperating teacher. PFT essentially eliminates a paid position. There's a big difference.

 

[Timebuilder]

Good point, JJ.

 

[bobbysamd]

P-F-T

Remember how badly we all wanted to be in the left seat of a 767 at Delta with the vest and the hat and the whole can-o-worms? We all wanted this so badly from jump street that had we been financially able to PFT we'd have done so. All of us. Period. Don't say "Not me!", yes YOU!!!!

No, my friend. I will say, "not me." Read some of my other posts on this issue.

For the benefit of those who don't want to run a search of "P-F-T" and "bobbysamd," I will come to the point. Ethics, morning mirror-facing, and hosing other pilots notwithstanding, I decided that no job was worth buying. That's the bottom line. Moreover, I never had an interest in the "whole can of worms" as stated above. Left seat of a 1900 would have thrilled me to no end. And following that through to its conclusion, left seat of an RJ would have been beyond my wildest expectations.

Although I was relatively new to professional aviation, I already had a modicum of life experience. I never heard of such a thing as P-F-T. Having to pay for my job, although I was already qualified? Outrageous!!

The complainers and whiners didn't have the means to PFT and that's all it is.

Oh, I could have gotten the money. See above for the reasons why I did not. It took me about ten milliseconds to dismiss the notion.

And I'd probably have that Delta job (lay-off?) now instead of running a 20-year old Citation all over the Southeast for $45K per year.

And that is such a bad job?? I would have loved something like that, too. I believe that you are the one who is whining. Finally,

Some of you are very bitter and you really need to take a long look at yourself and take some responsibility for your choices in life.

Reread the above. I believe I have. No, sir, you are the one who is bitter.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

Response to student teacher's not taking the place of a full-time teacher.

USUALLY, the above is correct.

Sometimes, however, the student teacher DOES take the place of a full-time teacher. What some schools do (it happens frequently, but is a minority of the student-teachers), is they pay the student teacher about 1/2 of what a full-time teacher would make, and the student teacher does everything for 1 or more classes. They are supervised, but by another full-time teacher who teaches other classes.

In my area of the country, mostly small districts do this, either to save money, or the student teacher is the only one with the qualifications to take the job.

Cliff
GRB

 

[bobbysamd]

Broadcasting interns

Bobby, having been in broadcasting, knows about the "gopher" system. As a young intern-for-free, you go-for coffee, go-for cigarettes, etc. You aren't paid, but you are not performing a required function at the station. You are not paying someone so that you can say that you had a "job".

I had interns in my newsrooms. Somehow, I understood that they could operate the boards, cart machines, etc. and would be helpful and capable. I remember one was so incapable that we assigned her to retype our Rolodex contact file. The result was mostly typed gibberish.

Another one we had was helpful in our newsroom but was really more suited to jocking. She got a job jocking across town but was canned - I dunno why - typical radio. She came by the station and told me. I immediately brought her to our FM PD, who remembered her, and he hired her.

Disc jockey in New York City (read "Don Imus," "Cousin Brucie," "Dan Ingram")? Money out the yingyang. The internship in Colorado Springs that helped you get on the air: Priceless.