freaked on Gulfstream Academy

[mcjohn]

O.K., O.K.!! You all have thoroughly freaked me out about GAA. But, I can't help thinking of a few questions here. If PFT programs are so hated in the industry then is there any animosity toward military pilots (who were not instructors) getting a job ahead of an experienced CFI.
Also, my situation may be unique in that I have never gone to the academies and gotten the loan debt of 40-50 grand that most people who are instructing seem have in common. My 230 hours with Instrument rating was aquired over 2+ years with maybe 70% of the cost being cash out of my pocket (Bellman tips). So I'm still waiting to get that big loan and figure out where the hell to spend it. I have come so close to attending AllATP's and other schools and this brings up a point that I find to be the most frustrating. Every time I seek advice from experienced pilots on training and the various schools all I tend to get are horror stories. They'll say:
"I've flown with people from Comair Academy that I'll never fly with again"
"I know someone that just came out of that school with over 80 grand in debt"
"AllATP's rips you off by putting you on a sim for so many hours and it's nothing more than a quickie program anyway. Good luck finding a job after you waste all that money!"
"That school just went belly up because management put all of the student's money into a charter operation that failed." etc.. etc...
So anyway, I feel like experienced pilots sometimes have such intense biases and the way they got it is the ONLY way to go.
On a different note consider this quote from the only guy who responded positively:
"After getting paid for the actual flight time I think I only paid about 14 thousand. I am so glad I did! Now I am flying a jet and have been at a regional for 2 years, while my friends and fellow pilots at my flight school back home are still working on building time. Sometimes when I read pilots posts who strongly oppose gulfstream and other pft programs, I wonder if I would do anything different....but then I think...why wouldnt I do whatever it takes to make myself more marketable than the next guy. If you think about it what other industry out there looks down upon those who try to get the best training available? My responsibility in my life is to my family. When it really comes down to it, people at the majors dont know about gulfstream or even care! I have lots of friends at the majors now and when I explain how I recieved my training most all of them say " I wish I would have done that!"

I'm in the same boat as far as responsibility to a family goes.

I really appreciate the feed back I got and as usual it stressed me out as I continue to figure out what to next in training.
Please give more input.

 

[FN FAL]

Hey, you've got me sold! I say get your "freak on" and head on over to GAA. Time's a wasting...seniority is everything...if you love what you do, who cares about the pay? Do it because you love aviation and it will all work out for you in the long run.

Good luck and don't forget to brush and floss regularly, write when you have the time and make sure you wear clean underwear!

 

[uwochris]

One thing to consider... those guys building time as instructors are at least getting PIC time. If you jump into the right seat of a turbine/jet a/c with little time, it will be a very long time until you see any PIC time. Those instructors and other guys/gals who are flying smaller equipment will be in a better position in the future for upgrades.

I know people who jumped into right seat of a twin turbine at 250 hours. After 4 years, they were still right seat. I also know someone who spent over 3 years in the right seat of a single-engine turbine a/c. On the other hand, my old instructor got a job on a Metro (twin turbine). He was upgraded to PIC within less than 1 year.

 

[Brett Hull]

If PFT programs are so hated in the industry then is there any animosity toward military pilots (who were not instructors) getting a job ahead of an experienced CFI.

Not many. I'm sure there are a few dimwits who feel that way, but they're like I said...dimwits.

I don't quite think you're quite getting the point, though. It's not just about not having to flight instruct. Here's the deal:

Continental Airlines contracts with Gulfstream Airlines to provide a professional feeder service to them, not to run a flight school. Because Gulfstream is a part 121 airline that REQUIRES two professional pilots per the FAR's, both pilots SHOULD be trained at the expense of the company, and be paid a fair wage (although I don't think $18K/yr to fly a 50 seat jet is a fair wage, but that's a whole different story). So, to make a long winded paragraph short, Continental Airlines is already paying Gulfstream, you shouldn't. Gulfstream should be paying you, and it should be a heck of a lot more than $8 bucks an hour.

So I'm still waiting to get that big loan and figure out where the hell to spend it.

What? Are you insane? Do you enjoy being in debt? I sure the he!! don't. If you really want to get a big loan, buy a house, not a few hours in stupid airplanes.

On a different note consider this quote from the only guy who responded positively:
"After getting paid for the actual flight time I think I only paid about 14 thousand. I am so glad I did! Now I am flying a jet and have been at a regional for 2 years, while my friends and fellow pilots at my flight school back home are still working on building time. Sometimes when I read pilots posts who strongly oppose gulfstream and other pft programs, I wonder if I would do anything different....but then I think...why wouldnt I do whatever it takes to make myself more marketable than the next guy. If you think about it what other industry out there looks down upon those who try to get the best training available? My responsibility in my life is to my family. When it really comes down to it, people at the majors dont know about gulfstream or even care! I have lots of friends at the majors now and when I explain how I recieved my training most all of them say " I wish I would have done that!"

I'm in the same boat as far as responsibility to a family goes.

Well woop de flippin doo. He's flying an RJ, and he's making what, $25K/yr. And he's probably still paying on a $14,000 loan. Probably doesn't leave too much for the "fam". If he would have spent the time he was at Gulfstream as a CFI, he'd probably still be at a regional, and he wouldn't be paying on a $14K loan.

I really appreciate the feed back I got and as usual it stressed me out as I continue to figure out what to next in training.
Please give more input.

Suck it up, don't pay someone who should be paying you, and soon that $18,000 a year dream job will soon be yours.

 

[mattpilot]

Here's my advice:

Go rent a multi - duchess, seminole, C310 whatever.... and fly from florida to LA, to whateverisupnorth and allaround the place. Set some speed records You'll get PIC time and lots of Multitime. I'd personally go with a C310 since its high performance. PM me if you want details for a $185/hr C310 in Tulsa, OK. I bet you can even negotiate a good discount out of it.

 

[mcjohn]

my situation

What? Are you insane? Do you enjoy being in debt? I sure the he!! don't. If you really want to get a big loan, buy a house, not a few hours in stupid airplanes.

I steered away from the big expensive flight schools just so I could buy a house. Now I'm married and own a house and I'm trying to figure out what to do next for training. I have my wife splitting the bills with me for about one more year and then it's all up to me when the babies come.

 

[Ralgha]

to whateverisupnorth

*GASP* He doesn't know any cities that are in the best part of the country!

 

[Ralgha]

I steered away from the big expensive flight schools just so I could buy a house. Now I'm married and own a house and I'm trying to figure out what to do next for training. I have my wife splitting the bills with me for about one more year and then it's all up to me when the babies come.

Whoah, if it's all up to you in a year, why are you wanting to go into debt? Even better question, why are you seeking an $18k/yr job? You'll be needing a lot more than that.

 

[msuspartans24]

The fact of the matter is that everyone has a different opinion on PFT. There are some who hate it, love it, and don't give a rat's a$$. I've been in this industry for 6 years and have met captains, FO's, Executives, and other various pilots who think GAA and other programs like it are great, but at the same time I have met others of the same stature who feel 100% opposite and hate it.

No matter how many people you ask in this industry you will always find a difference of opinion. You have to look at the whole situation and determine for yourself what you feel is the best way for you to fullfill your dream. If that's paying a company money for training and going into crazy amounts of debt than DO IT!!! Do what you think is the best thing for your career. There are a lot of guys who knock PFT, but the reality of it is if they had the money to do it they probably would have (and that's not everyone, just people that I have talked to) On the other hand maybe that's not the best way for you to do it, look at instructing or other ways to build time. You may not get the same type of time, or training as you would at a PFT program, but you will still get what you need. Don't think for a second that the level of training at a PFT programs and big expensive flight schools is better than the local "mom and pop" FBO training. TRAINING IS WHAT YOU PUT INTO IT. I have flown with guys who have gone to big flight schools with all the fancy planes and marketing dept., and they didn't know jack sh!t. If you want to succeed in this industry bust your butt and make yourself the best pilot that you can (both in the airplane and in the books). It seems to me that if you have paid for most of your training out of pocket and worked at the same time, I wouldn't waste my time at GAA. Keep working hard and use that money towards time building and other ratings.

My 2cents, but like I said you have to figure it out for yourself what's best.

Best of luck!

 

[mcjohn]

Whoah, if it's all up to you in a year, why are you wanting to go into debt? Even better question, why are you seeking an $18k/yr job? You'll be needing a lot more than that.

Nobody wants to go into debt. I own my house and that's some serious debt but I would consider that GOOD debt because of the investment factor. Isn't that the way flight training debt is looked at? I have about $5000 left on credit card and want to spend it in the wisest manner possible. To prep for Gulfstream I would get multi/commercial, otherwise I would just get single/commercial and try to tow banners on S.C. or G.A. coast line which I don't even know is possible.

 

[mcjohn]

I think that is the most solid, unbiased advice I've had so far. Right on!
Thankyou for making sense of my "Big Expensive Flight Academy" paranoia! Nowadays people are coming out of the schools with 50-100 thousand in debt. GAA's 30 grand actually seems reasonable.

 

[Ralgha]

A house is "good" debt because you're pretty much guarenteed to get your full value back (money is not the only value in a house). However, in aviation, nothing is guarenteed, and avoiding debt like the plague is a very good idea. Investing in aviation is more like playing roulette than investing in a house.

Seriously don't discount flight instructing. There's a ton of people here who bitch and moan about the terrible pay and working conditions that flight instructors get. As with many other things, you make it what you want. If you want to work for peanuts from the man and a shady flight school, more power to you, it's definately the easy way to go. On the other hand, you could put some effort into it, have a positive outlook, and be on the way to $40,000/yr like me. Now in my case, a lot of my current situation just fell into place, and I'm actually getting out of it for other reasons, but the money is there if you're willing to put some effort into it. Stay away from the debt.

 

[realityman]

mcjohn,

I guess it's all really a matter of perspective. For everyone who is so vehemently against PFT, maybe you should ask them if they feel Southwest Airlines is a bad deal and if all those pilots are scumbags. After all, Southwest airlines makes you get a 737 type rating before they hire you. Isn't that PFT? Yes, some folks have the type from previous jobs, but many actually go and pay for the type rating to get hired by SWA. Of course, I'm sure you'll hear the argument that it's for great job that pays very well! That really doesn't make the point though, does it? People are still PAYING for their own type in the 737 to get the job. THAT'S PFT!! So is it worth it? Ask the folks flying for SWA. Then ask the folks flying for Gulfstream or any other low-paying carrier with PFT. The answers will vary. I guess only you can decide for yourself if it's worth it.

One other way to look at it. And keep in mind that I'm generally against PFT, but I'll present this argument anyway in the interest of showing both sides. Let's say you wanted to be an electrician or something similar that requires a working knowledge of electricty and wiring and such. Wouldn't you go to college and get a degree in something like electrical engineering? Who would be paying for that college? The future company you hope to work for? NO! You and your family would foot the bill. So there you would be, starting work with an electrical company with a large amount of school debt and the company would probably still have to train you in certain specifics of the job. So what's the difference between that scenario and GAA?

Do what you have to and feel is right for you.

 

[FarginDooshbahg]

After all, Southwest airlines makes you get a 737 type rating before they hire you. Isn't that PFT? People are still PAYING for their own type in the 737 to get the job. THAT'S PFT!!

NO IT'S NOT. No one is paying SWA a nickel for their training. Therefore it is NOT PFT. When you pay the airline DIRECTLY for training that you are required to have and that they are required to provide, then THAT is PFT.

When people point to SWA as PFT, they are just trying to justify their own PFT sins by holding up SWA and their type rating requirement.

This type rating requirement is no different than a company requiring an ATP. Did you pay for your ATP training? If so, is that PFT? I could go on, but you get the jist.

 

[Brett Hull]

Nobody wants to go into debt... I have about $5000 left on credit card and want to spend it in the wisest manner possible.

I'm now officially dumbfounded. Going into $5000 more of credit card debt to get an $8/hr job isn't the answer. The wisest manner possible would be to not spend it at all and to pay off what you owe on it. You may want to use $16.47 of that $5K and buy this book.

And the guy may be a FarginDooshbag, but he did a heck of a job explaining PFT.

PFT = Paying someone who should be paying you.

Therefore, SWA is not PFT.

 

[Ralgha]

I have about $5000 left on credit card and want to spend it in the wisest manner possible.

The wisest manner possible would be to not spend it.

GAA's 30 grand actually seems reasonable.

Zero debt is more reasonable.

 

[Publishers]

Generally when it comes to this subject, I am of the belief that once you are an employee, you should have any training paid for by the company. I do not have many qualms with some contract if they are paying as too many leave with their new rating.

The fact is that in this industry you are competing for a job. If I need a Gulfstream pilot, I am going to seek those that already have the rating. Southwest is no different although they will tell you they will hire if you have one, a nice touch.

Is there great value in boring holes in the sky as a CFI with someone else doing most of the flying, maybe. Does that even begin to relate to my success flying as part of an airline crew and an aircraft with a big jet engine, don't know that either. Can I be a fantastic instructor and a big bomb as a jet driver for an airline, you bet.

If you cna fly and did not CFI, does it really make a difference. No!

So do what you can to get what you want.

 

[mattpilot]

*GASP* He doesn't know any cities that are in the best part of the country!

http://www.rtl.de/news/games/europa_dart/

Tell me how good you are - i bet you won't make it below 10000km on first try. First try i got 987km.

 

[FN FAL]

NO IT'S NOT. No one is paying SWA a nickel for their training. Therefore it is NOT PFT. When you pay the airline DIRECTLY for training that you are required to have and that they are required to provide, then THAT is PFT.

When people point to SWA as PFT, they are just trying to justify their own PFT sins by holding up SWA and their type rating requirement.

This type rating requirement is no different than a company requiring an ATP. Did you pay for your ATP training? If so, is that PFT? I could go on, but you get the jist.

No, it's not PFT at SWA because the airplane is a REGIONAL JET made by Boeing. IF the regional jet is made in Canada or Brazil...then buying a type is PFT. Get your facts straighter.

 

[Ralgha]

http://www.rtl.de/news/games/europa_dart/

Tell me how good you are - i bet you won't make it below 10000km on first try. First try i got 987km.

72km!