FOs flying to near the max -- how does the pay work?

[Leroy Smith]

A lot of the people asking these questions seem to be trying to convince themselves that "its not as bad as they say". I am astounded at some of the claims people are making about "working the system". Cudos to them for it! But how long will the company allow a system that lets an FO make that kind of money in today's environment? Flying 72.5/mo and making $53K (one example) means the company is paying you $60.90/flight hour. Is that sustainable? Is it the rare individual that can work it like that? Is it all legit? If everyone at that company is able to, then its gonna be tough for the company to stay competative. Yes, I think I am worth $53k a year (1st year). But the reality is, I will probably show in the low 20's when it is said and done.

When I was interviewing, just under a year ago, my company and the whole industry looked a lot different than what I am seeing now. Maybe it just takes getting on the inside to gain some perspective and see what is really going on, but things seem to have taken a turn quickly. I would do a lot of research into a company's management style and record, and even then remember that the best of them can still be backed into a corner by what is going on out there. I wouldn't base my financial planning on anything other than guarantee pay for most of the first year, and consider anything above that as gravy. And remember that the outfit that has guys(gals) getting off reserve quick or uprgrading fast now may be the same one that stagnates by the time you get on the line.

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Between two evils, I always pick the one I never tried before.

 

[MarineGrunt]

Flying 72.5/mo and making $53K (one example) means the company is paying you $60.90/flight hour.

That wasn't the example. The example was 110-120 credit hours/month, which if it is true and you throw in the per-diem, it works out to be pretty close.

 

[Leroy Smith]

That wasn't the example. The example was 110-120 credit hours/month, which if it is true and you throw in the per-diem, it works out to be pretty close.

True, that's credit hours. But he provided his company with 870 hours for which they were able to produce revenue and he got paid for 1320-1440 hours. Good for him, I say. But what happens if everyone on the list is able to do this. Maybe the company has it built into their business model/ pay structure? It sounds like something, that if it is widespread, will not be for long. I would love to be able to accomplish this myself, but there is no way.

I am trying to point out to folks trying to get into the industry a problem with using examples like this to base their career decisions on. If they think that they will be able to fly 999.9hrs/yr and get paid for 150% of that, they will probably be dissapointed. But hey, maybe it'll be different for them. When you've got SJS, any argument that sounds good, well, sounds good. There are some bright spots in the industry, Im sure, but I cant really see them from here.

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Between two evils, I always pick the one I never tried before.

 

[Crash Pad]

Take ASA for example. You can be a senior FO with 15 days off and 85 hours on the 70. You can then pick up a day line or two and get into the mid 90's a little overblock and you can make 99 hours. However a junior FO won't be picking up anything because they won't have 15 days off to use and if they did the trips go to the senior guys who can pull it off.
Working the system. Let me understand this. We could all be making 50K as second year FO's but because we don't understand the details of scheduling we only make 35K. For an extra 15K I'll figure out the FAR's, Contract, etc... in farsi and I don't think I'm the only pilot that will.
We aren't all idiots wondering the earth hoping money falls on us. The reality is there isn't that much money at the regionals.

 

[swampfan]

Actual Results May Vary

I was able to make 53k (okay, 47k without per diem) because my company work rules allowed some great opportunities to make a little extra. I probably would have only made around 37k had I not taken advantage of these opportunities and our scheduling/planning department's ineptness.

One way I was able to to this: our company pays 1.5 time for anything in open time. Scheduling need someone to get them out of a bind to cover some near-term open time. I would frequently trade my line awarded trips with ones in open time that were on days I originally had off. The result: work the same amount of time (now I have "moved" my days off) and get paid 1.5. All legit. A few times, I was even displaced, and did not go to work, but still got my 1.5 x scheduled credit. Other ways my credit came up were just due to block or better rules, etc. A few extra flying days here or there.

In the end, I made a pretty good living last year, but I feel like I worked hard and earned every bit. Can my company sustain this? They won't have to. They just used bankruptcy to bully the pilots into taking huge pay and work rule hits that would have cost me ~15k this year alone. That's why I got out of there in a hurry.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

First year at 9E I pulled in around 26K. I flew 990 something hours, and that was with OE in January and reserve through the end of March.

 

[DetoXJ]

PER DIEM IS NOT SALARY!!!!!

If your company did not pay it, you could tax deduct it anyway. Do not count this in your pay comparisons please. The bank does not count it in pre-approving you for your house, so don't count it here.

I don't know any regional FO making 40K their second year. Maybe their 4th. If you want a fair comparison ask what average credit is......At XJ (as a middle line holder) I would say about 87 hours average (sometimes 75 sometimes 105) I would guess around 85-90 hours a month for most airlines. Then go to airlinepilotcentral.com and get the payscales for their airline.

You can look at Per Diem however you want Murph. I have always considered it as part of my pay. No matter where you work you have to eat. We are one of a few professions where we are giving money to eat. I was never given extra pay to eat when I worked in other fields. None of my friends who are teachers and attorneys and engineers get extra pay/income for food while at work. Call it what you want but it's extra $$ going into our pockets. Like I said, no matter what you do or where you work, you still gotta eat.

 

[taloft]

None of my friends who are teachers and attorneys and engineers get extra pay/income for food while at work. Call it what you want but it's extra $$ going into our pockets. Like I said, no matter what you do or where you work, you still gotta eat.

All the professional jobs I worked before aviation allowed you to expense food when you travel (i.e. company paid for it). That's why everyone at the airport asks if you want a receipt. They're expecting business travellers who travel on the company expense account.

You make out much better being able to bill your company for all travel-related expenses compared to the pittance of per diem I am allowed now as a pilot.

 

[FCPhotography]

At Pinnacle if you are on reserve you can not pick up flying. You can only pick up another res day. They don't want you to fly too much incase they need to abuse the heck out of you while they got you. Another bad part of our contract.

If there is an 8 hour day trip in opentime, they won't let you pick it up.

 

[DetoXJ]

All the professional jobs I worked before aviation allowed you to expense food when you travel (i.e. company paid for it). That's why everyone at the airport asks if you want a receipt. They're expecting business travellers who travel on the company expense account.

You make out much better being able to bill your company for all travel-related expenses compared to the pittance of per diem I am allowed now as a pilot.

I'll take my approx. $5,000 tax free anyday over expensing meals to the company. I don't come close to spending it and it's a few hundred extra bones in my pocket each month when it's all said and done.

Typical day

Breakfast = free at hotel or a breakfast bar/oatmeal that I pack.

Lunch = Banana from the hotels free breakfast and a protien bar that I pack

Dinner = $6 - $10 depending on where I eat my dinner or often something that I pack my self.

The great part about Per Diem is that it is up to the individual how they want to spend it. I come out way ahead.