Forecast for recalls, hiring, pension benefits if NPRM issued

[ferlo]

llllllllll

 

[El Pobre]

One thing is for certain....your B-fund....GONE....You might be able to negotiate with the company to roll that money into a 401k, but that is just less money that you can contribute to your own 401k....I guess we'll just have to work longer, maybe to 70. But don't worry, the guys pushing 65 have already accumulated plenty in their B-funds. Maybe at least they will start buying dinner on layovers....probably not!

I'm not too impressed with this Prater guy.... he sure didn't seem to be towing the line that the ALPA pilots voted on. I guess that if I still plan to retire at 60, one wat to save more money would to not pay union dues...why belong to a union if the union leadership is blatently willing to disregard the wishes of the majority of it's membership.

 

[Flopgut]

...why belong to a union if the union leadership is blatently willing to disregard the wishes of the majority of it's membership.

I agree. Might be time to shutter ALPA. I'm willing to watch how Prater directs the proposal of implementation. Needs to be fair and show regard for the majority, if not? Buh-bye.

 

[PCL_128]

I'm not too impressed with this Prater guy.... he sure didn't seem to be towing the line that the ALPA pilots voted on. I guess that if I still plan to retire at 60, one wat to save more money would to not pay union dues...why belong to a union if the union leadership is blatently willing to disregard the wishes of the majority of it's membership.

Captain Prater is continuing to support Age-60, and has said that he will do so until the BOD changes the official policy of the Association. I don't expect that to happen until a majority of the membership votes in favor of a change. Captain Prater is a good guy, and he'll support the membership even though he personally disagrees with the policy. Don't crucify him just yet.

 

[Purpled]

The litigation out of this will be epic. Everyone will be suing everyone. Retired? Sue to get your job back.(FAA and Company)
F/O? Sue to get lost time value of money.(FAA and over 60 supporters)
Capt? Sue because you will be penilized for retiring at 60.(FAA and Company)

The list goes on. Just because the 'law' protects some group from lawsuits won't stop them. Those 'laws' still need to be reviewed by the judicial system. Everybody loses, even those who 'win.'

We should just leave it as is, it's working.

FUFH.

 

[El Pobre]

Captain Prater is continuing to support Age-60, and has said that he will do so until the BOD changes the official policy of the Association. I don't expect that to happen until a majority of the membership votes in favor of a change. Captain Prater is a good guy, and he'll support the membership even though he personally disagrees with the policy. Don't crucify him just yet.

His statements didn't give me a warm and fuzzy that he really supported the current rule, rather that he was trying to best figure out how to implement the expected change. This rule change sucks for the large majority of ALPA pilots.

 

[humuakalaka]

This rule change sucks for the large majority of ALPA pilots.

...and non-ALPA pilots.

 

[PCL_128]

His statements didn't give me a warm and fuzzy that he really supported the current rule, rather that he was trying to best figure out how to implement the expected change.

The rule change is practically inevitable now. We can't stop it. The best we can do is delay it and prepare for when it happens. The best thing ALPA can do right now is figure out how to best minimize the disastrous consequences of this abortion.

This rule change sucks for the large majority of ALPA pilots.

Without a doubt.

 

[Flopgut]

I like Capatain Prater a great deal, but I detect an active lack of earnest challenge to this rule change. Nothing personal really, ALL the old guys have been doing it for years. It was obvious they were moving this direction when they ran ALPA's last polling of the membership on the issue; It was done at the most opportune time for possible policy change. There will be a large number of lawsuits and they are going to primarily train in on the membership [ALPA]. We're going to have to think about a new union. Especially so considering this one of those issues that will be regretted by 85-90% of the membership post change (bet I'm right on that one guys, 60%+ are smart enough to know better, 20% are greedy, and then rest just act stupidly but will come around).

 

[Freight Dog]

Hey PCL... I'd like to see what has Prater done to stop this madness. Oh yeah, zilch. Half-assed lip service.

You know a great deal about RJDC lawsuit.

Frankly, I think RJDC lawsuit will be some really small potatoes in comparison to the sh*tstorm changing age 60 will bring about in terms of lawsuits against everyone and their mother... individuals, MEC's, FAA, ALPA national, companies, etc.

Seeing Prater's half-assed remarks, lack of action and how he doesn't want to divide the union with this rule all the while he's catering to MINORITY shows me that he's all talk just like his predecessor. Bear in mind, probies and furloughees weren't allowed to vote in the poll because they would have really twisted the results in favor of keeping the rule. At least Woerthless catered to the majority. I'll give him that.

You couldn't pick a more divisive agenda than Age 60, yet look at his actions and his choice of words. He's given up on what the membership directed ALPA National to do.

I'm sorry bud, but it appears that surrender is in his DNA. You didn't see APAAD surrender, but you are seeing ALPA fold (yet again). If I can only play poker with ALPA National, I'd walk away with millions because any hand I get dealt, I know ALPA will fold.

You know, you're the biggest ALPA cheerleader around. I know you're a very young guy probably with aspirations to run for executive position at ALPA which is admirable. But you need to start forming your own opinions as opposed to blindly and naively singing the party line, and being able to recognize a snowjob when you see one.

Start forming your opinions. Not everything ALPA does is in your interests or mine or in this case the majority's.

 

[PCL_128]

I have my own opinions, sir. I disagree with Captain Prater on the age-60 issue, but you have to be realistic at some point. We can't stop this! Age-65 will be a reality. We need to prepare for that and protect as many pilots as possible. That means lobbying for legislation to defend everyone from lawsuits, developing scheduling guidelines to deal with the scheduling nightmare that will result from having to have someone under 60 always paired with a geezer, working on retirement plan issues, etc... To stick our heads in the sand and pretend that we can stop this runaway freight train would be irresponsible. It is going to happen, now we need to minimize the damage.

 

[Freight Dog]

You are missing a big step here PCL. That is trying to stop it in accordance with the preference of the majority in ALPA - the ball that ALPA dropped.

THEN... should it pass, then you fight the fire.

Like I said... Prater talks the talk. He needs to walk the walk, and that's something he ain't doing. Must be the Herndon Syndrome.

 

[PCL_128]

You are missing a big step here PCL. That is trying to stop it in accordance with the preference of the majority in ALPA - the ball that ALPA dropped.

ALPA's been trying to stop this for two decades, and we've been very successful to this point. We would continue to be successful if this was limited to legislation, but with the FAA getting involved with an NPRM, we have no leverage. We had enough Congressmen, Senators, and Committee Chairmen to hold this up on Capitol Hill, but this has gone beyond that level now. ALPA will certainly try to influence the NPRM process, but that's a fruitless endeavor at this point.

THEN... should it pass, then you fight the fire.

Whoa, that's a scary way of doing business. You don't wait until it's too late to work on fixing a problem. Once the rule has changed, it's too late to protect us. We need to be intimately involved in the ARC process to make sure that our members are protected to the greatest extend possible. ALPA isn't a reactionary organization. We try out best to plan ahead and prepare for the inevitable.

Like I said... Prater talks the talk. He needs to walk the walk, and that's something he ain't doing. Must be the Herndon Syndrome.

The guy's been in office for 27 days. Give him a chance to do his job. I think you'll be surprised.

 

[Flopgut]

PCL: If this get's screwed up, ALPA has to go. Or, we at least have to consider getting a new union. I don't know much about the RJDC, but you've got a history with it I guess. It seems like we've almost all have some concern with them. There are countless other things ALPA has handled less than stellar in the recent past.

Lawsuits are going to land on someones doorstep, If it's ALPA we might have to shut it down just to get some closure and a new start. And that's the unfortunate truth I'm afraid. You can't count on this generation of older pilots to accept an sort of compromise, they are going to sue no matter what.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL: If this get's screwed up, ALPA has to go. Or, we at least have to consider getting a new union. I don't know much about the RJDC, but you've got a history with it I guess.

History with it? Yeah, you could say that. I despise it and want to see the supporters of it expelled from the Association. That's all.

It seems like we've almost all have some concern with them. There are countless other things ALPA has handled less than stellar in the recent past.

ALPA isn't perfect, and it never will be. Mistakes will be made, but ALPA is a democratic organization and change starts at the grassroots level. The grassroots pilots informed their reps that they wanted change, and that resulted in the election of Captain Prater. Personally, I was a Woerth supporter during the election, but I'm beginning to think that Captain Prater was the best choice.

Lawsuits are going to land on someones doorstep, If it's ALPA we might have to shut it down just to get some closure and a new start. And that's the unfortunate truth I'm afraid. You can't count on this generation of older pilots to accept an sort of compromise, they are going to sue no matter what.

Lawsuits are nothing new to ALPA, or any labor union for that matter. Most of them end up going nowhere, because DFR breach is next to impossible to prove in court. I'm not worried about it.

 

[Vne]

because DFR breach is next to impossible to prove in court.

That is unless its the TRUTH and one has proof. Tic...Tic...Tic...

 

[PCL_128]

That is unless its the TRUTH and one has proof. Tic...Tic...Tic...

Like I said, I'm not too concerned.

 

[Freight Dog]

PCL... You are correct... ALPA has been fighting this for over 25 years. Unfortunately, that fight seems to have ended with Prater's election. Prater personally doesn't support Age 60, so he's taking a passive stance and "accepting the inevitable" as opposed to fighting this ugly turd from ever becoming a law as directed by the majority membership in ALPA.

This disease is gonna be just like the RJ and the who-gets-to-fly-it debacle, RJDC, but on a much bigger scale. Nevermind the lawsuits, but instead of unity that's necessary to recover what was lost, we'll be split and divided even more so.

Prater is sure off to a great start...

 

[airfogey]

...and non-ALPA pilots.

Once its over and done with both ALPA and non ALPA pilots will probably wonder what all the hub-bub was about. How can ending 47 years of wrongful discrimnation suck, except to the very short sighted.

Airfogey

 

[Phaedrus]

Speaking of short-sighted, you can't even see beyond your own nose...

 

[Flopgut]

If it's purely an issue of ending discrimination, then NOTHING has been accomplishished! It's still an age Fogey, How do you not understand that, and do you know how foolish that makes you sound?

This is a re-finance on the total dollars pilots make with a windfall going to one group, that's it! It's not even a bump up in pay. In fact, it will denude the possibility of raises from consideration for a long time.

 

[Flopgut]

Is there a single benefit for a pilot that wants to retire at 60 that could possibly come from this?

Edit: Post retirement age change: Junior pilots who want to retire at 60 are expected to take a several hundred thousand dollar hit so today's senior pilots don't have to retire at 60 with a several hundred thousand dollar hit?!

WTF? How stupid are we suppose to be for this to make sense?

 

[Tejas-Jet]

IF the NPRM is issued, then it really doesn't matter if ALPA or APA or whoever/whichever pilot group is for or against the age change.

If you are opposed to this, then your fight should've been stronger back...

...When the ICAO voted to make the change happen,

...and foreign Air Carrier pilots started flying into our airspace on Thanksgiving day 2006....

...When the FAA docs told a Senate comittee that it wasn't about safety

...When the FAA's official stance became "neutral" on the age change

....for all intents and purposes...the fight was over because nobody put much energy into it

... It's nothing but squealing now.

 

[PCL_128]

Unfortunately, that fight seems to have ended with Prater's election. Prater personally doesn't support Age 60, so he's taking a passive stance and "accepting the inevitable" as opposed to fighting this ugly turd from ever becoming a law as directed by the majority membership in ALPA.

Your perception is incorrect. This idea didn't start with Captain Prater's administration. Captain Woerth supported Age 60, but he said towards the end of his term that the change was inevitable, and the only thing left to do was minimize the negative impact.

 

[capt. megadeth]

Once its over and done with both ALPA and non ALPA pilots will probably wonder what all the hub-bub was about. How can ending 47 years of wrongful discrimnation suck, except to the very short sighted.

Airfogey

Safety smafety, discrimination, blah blah blah.

What a bunch of horse do do. The only reason this is being looked at is because of either the 1. lack of pensions at certain airlines or 2. the fact that pensions were dumped by incompetent management at other airlines. I am not buying the "discrimination" b.s. If you want to argue that then why don't we just get rid of the seniority system? I mean, if a pilot gets hired at Airline A on the 737 with 10,000 hours and 5000 hours as capt. on the 737, why should he/she have to fly right seat to a 6000 hour 737 capt. just because that person is senior? I could argue discrimination on that too. Shouldn't the more experienced be captain?

Not only that....why have an age limit at all? I mean, wouldn't 65 be discriminatory? Why not just make it that you can fly until you can't hold a 1st class? Whooops....sorry, don't want to give anyone any ideas.

 

[Flopgut]

IF the NPRM is issued, then it really doesn't matter if ALPA or APA or whoever/whichever pilot group is for or against the age change.

If you are opposed to this, then your fight should've been stronger back...

...When the ICAO voted to make the change happen,

...and foreign Air Carrier pilots started flying into our airspace on Thanksgiving day 2006....

...When the FAA docs told a Senate comittee that it wasn't about safety

...When the FAA's official stance became "neutral" on the age change

....for all intents and purposes...the fight was over because nobody put much energy into it

... It's nothing but squealing now.

Oh Tejas my friend, the squealing is going to start when the majority gets heard.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

Oh Tejas my friend, the squealing is going to start when the majority gets heard.

The majority has been heard for a long time. In fact, the FAA's change to a neutral stance came while hearing from "the majority". As did the FAA's Federal Air Surgeon's testimony that health issues had nothing to do with it.

Do you honestly think the age 60 will never change?

Tejas

 

[tomgoodman]

Unintended consequence?

The only reason this is being looked at is because of either the 1. lack of pensions at certain airlines or 2. the fact that pensions were dumped by incompetent management at other airlines.

Good point. The age extension issue was raised several times in the past, but remained a "dead duck" until the wave of pension-dumping. Had pensions remained intact, almost all pilots would have been content to retire at 60 (or earlier), especially where wage concessions have made continuing to work relatively less rewarding. Ironically, many of those who may stagnate if the rule changes were themselves accomplices to these pension-dumps.

 

[Flopgut]

Do you honestly think the age 60 will never change?

Tejas

It never should change. Just like a pilot's DOH.

 

[Purpled]

It never should change. Just like a pilot's DOH.

Hurumph!