For Those Without Slats

[Typhoon1244]

There are a couple of different ways to handle a "slam-dunk" (like they often do in DFW, CAE, PFN, and a bunch of others) in the CRJ. The most obvious is to slow to 200 or 210, select flaps-20, and you'll slide right on down to the airport at around 2,000 feet per minute. The drawback is that since the CRJ-200 isn't blessed with leading edge devices, the deck angle during that kind of maneuvering can become, well, alarming. At least, I think it might surprise some passengers...and I prefer not to surprise passengers.

The alternative--and the method I choose--is to use the flight spoilers: you get the same rate of descent with a nice level deck angle. (Of course, you also get the spoiler "rumble.")

Does anybody think I'm over-thinking this? Do passengers care about steep body angles? Or do they not even notice?

 

[MetroSheriff]

Another good technique is pitch down, then roll in about 30 or 40 degrees of bank and then maintain heading with full opposite rudder. It does a great job a spoiling lift, particularly on a clean, swept wing airplane like the CRJ. The passengers barely notice.

 

[FL000]

I prefer to drop the oxygen masks while using both methods at once. That way, the passengers don't care what the deck angle is.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Another good technique is pitch down, then roll in about 30 or 40 degrees of bank and then maintain heading with full opposite rudder.

I'll have to try that next time...

Naw, c'mon guys, I'm serious. Does anybody think descent angle is a factor in passenger comfort? Not everybody out there is a savvy frequent-flyer...particular when it comes to RJ's.

 

[SpiderMan]

There are a couple of different ways to handle a "slam-dunk" (like they often do in DFW, CAE, PFN, and a bunch of others) in the CRJ. The most obvious is to slow to 200 or 210, select flaps-20, and you'll slide right on down to the airport at around 2,000 feet per minute. The drawback is that since the CRJ-200 isn't blessed with leading edge devices, the deck angle during that kind of maneuvering can become, well, alarming. At least, I think it might surprise some passengers...and I prefer not to surprise passengers.

The alternative--and the method I choose--is to use the flight spoilers: you get the same rate of descent with a nice level deck angle. (Of course, you also get the spoiler "rumble.")

Does anybody think I'm over-thinking this? Do passengers care about steep body angles? Or do they not even notice?

They bought a ticket I say give'em a ride!

 

[bigD]

I've sat next to several passengers over the years that have been nervous about our plane's descent angle, so it does make a difference to some. I actually find that it's sometimes the more frequent flyers that get nervous, because they get so used to things being a certain way, and then get uncomfortable when something (such as descent angle) changes.

 

[mar]

I think they do notice.

I probably don't spend as much time in the passenger terminals as most of you but when I do I sometimes hear 'war stories' from passengers.

You know what I'm talking about: Stories about how the plane just "dropped" or "fell".

Or, boy, the pilot was just "diving" for the airport.

I think most of the comments come from weekend or even armchair warriors--nevertheless, I think they do notice.

As for FL000 and his technique ("drop the oxygen masks while using both methods at once. That way, the passengers don't care what the deck angle is."), I'd also throw in a "BRACE, BRACE, BRACE!!!" from the PA at the same time.

Just for added effect

 

[skyking1976]

Re: I think they do notice.

As for FL000 and his technique ("drop the oxygen masks while using both methods at once. That way, the passengers don't care what the deck angle is."), I'd also throw in a "BRACE, BRACE, BRACE!!!" from the PA at the same time.

Just for added effect

I would definetly add some maniacal laughter in the background too!

 

[TXCAP4228]

Typhoon:

Somebody's grandmother will always be in the back, and always be affraid of the slightest thing. I've seen people go pale just from the sound the gear makes as it comes up and thumps into the well. I don't sit in the front, but I sit in theback enough to observe people. I don't think there's anything you can do to make it comfortable for EVERYONE.

Honest opinion? Without much forward visibility no one really knows what the deck angle is.... I think most folks would rather feel themselves lean slightly forward than feel the spoiler "rumble".


Just a humble passenger's opinion.

 

[furlough-boy]

When I'm worried about negative deck angle I just roll inverted and make it positive.

On another note. The first time I fly with another pilot I tell him I'm working on a new landing technique where I put the nose gear on first and then work the mains down. It gets them every time.

 

[T-Gates]

I was thinking about the same thing just the other day when I was getting slammed into DTW....

Personally, I think the Slow Down, Flaps 20, Speedmode method works the best. Some guys slow down and go Flaps 20 and jockey the VS wheel all over to figure the descent rate so they dont accelerate, or they just reach up and grab the Spoiler Lever. I think each may be just as unsettling as the other to a nervous passenger. So I say do whatever you have to make the plane do what you want, If grandma freaks out, thats too bad...

--03M

 

[Vector4fun]

Well, I don't think a spoiler "rumble" can be any more disconcerting than the shotgun like BANG I hear when the gear goes down in a CRJ. Whazzup with dem uplocks anway??


Heck, just make a P.A. like:

"ATC says we can land first if we hurry right on down, so stow your laptops, slam back those drinks and HANG ON folks..."


The truth will set you free.

From your job....

 

[cl-65link]

Be careful using speed mode for slam-dunk descents, especially when configuring or using the spoliers. You may have a much better or different view of the Earth immediately below you. Talk about uncomfortable. Reserve speed-mode descents for the sim, where no one is around to complain.

 

[T-Gates]

I usually use speedmode when I am already configured clean or Flaps 20, If I am going to make a configuration chage I go to VS mode and use the spoilers....

Personally I think it is no more violent then when guys think that the spoiler lever has 2 positions....ON and OFF....

--03M

 

[fLYbUDDY]

There are a couple of different ways to handle a "slam-dunk" (like they often do in DFW, CAE, PFN, and a bunch of others) in the CRJ.

I can't wait to slam dunk my first jet jockey!!

just kidding

 

[logolight]

The consideration you have to keep in mind for a steep angle is your flight attendant and their cart. They might be in the middle of the isle when you shove the nose over and the loud thump you hear is the cart running them over.

Use the flight spoilers, VS or Speed mode. I've even had captains drop the gear at 10,000 ft. to get down quick.

As far as speed mode is concerned, correct me if I'm wrong but I thought I read that the EICAS 2000 has what's called "Over speed mode" in which it will not dive for an airspeed when the trend vector is long.???

_________________________________________________

" Jetpipe, overheat."

 

[DoinTime]

If your really that concerned about customer comfort you should tell the controler that you are unable and that you will need vectors for the descent. The more times you accomodate the controller for their screw up the more likely they are to do it again to you in the future.

 

[avbug]

What a bunch of inside-the-box weenies. Dropping gear at 10,000 to get down! Spoilering it to get down. C'mon! Everyone knows that using spoilers only indicates a lack of planning.

Flight idle, shut down one powerplant to cut residual idle thrust, and full slip until within 10% of descent rate of assigned altitude.

Then use the spoilers if you have a speed problem.

Don't greet passengers after the flight. They may be less than complimentary.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Flight idle, shut down one powerplant to cut residual idle thrust...

You laugh...I knew a guy in the Brasilia who made descents with #2 at idle and #1 at cruise power so he wouldn't have to re-adjust the rudder trim. (On the 120, you couldn't touch the throttles without trimming the rudder.)

 

[avbug]

I would laugh, but I worked with an individual who, as the head of a corporate department, elected to land the airplane with one engine shut down for that purpose. He was flying into a high density-altitude shortish mountain airport, with an inoperative speed brake.

He elected to shut one down, apparently on the premis that he wouldn't use up as much runway (don't get me started on that one)...aparently stalled it, and did damage to the gear and wing.

If that weren't enough, on the next flight, the wheel (which didn't undergo the requisite inspection it should have) failed, and the airplane was damaged on the next landing.

The director of maintenance/copilot, and the captain who did all that, still work for the corporation, and the captain is still the chief pilot.

I should add that I wasn't in the airplane, nor working for the corporation, when that happened.

They ARE out there...and they're sharing your airspace. Be forewarned!

 

[sky37d]

My .02
A high deck angle will be alarming, and the carts may be in the aisle, but I think that would be preferable to spoiler rumble. When the plane starts down, people are anticipating that, because they know the landing will be soon. If you are cruising along flat and sassy, and all of a sudden there is a lot of rumble, I think that would be more disconcerting.

Us bug smashers usually don't have to worry about that stuff, but one night, about a year ago, we were coming into TEB at night, and for some reason NY ATC kept us at 7K until we were within 10NM of the airport, then told us to descend to 2K. The 50KT tail wind was helping us along. I pulled power back, and dropped the nose. It was truly amazing how high our ground speed was. Then, ATC got upset with us, because we were overtaking a CJ. Had to turn south to maintain separation.

 

[WrightAvia]

If that CRJ had an airstair door in the back, we wouldn't care how steep you brought it down. Just so you don't take all day to get the next load of jumpers up.

I know a guy that owns a king air 90 with big engines on it. Mike Mullens. He can take a plane full of jumpers up to 15,000 agl, drop em off and be loading the next group before you can land your canopy. Believe it or not, he always seems to have some people buying observer slots, just to take the ride down in the plane. To each his own, I guess.

With a jet full of scairdy cats in the back, you better use discretion with the "unusual attitudes".

 

[Vector4fun]

If your really that concerned about customer comfort you should tell the controler that you are unable and that you will need vectors for the descent.

Hey DoinTime,

I have absolutely no problem with that whatsoever.

The more times you accomodate the controller for their screw up the more likely they are to do it again to you in the future.

Now, I got a little problem. The vast majority of the time I'm doin a "slam dunk", it's not because of any screw-up, but because I got a hole on final to fit you in. I'm trying to make you #2 for the airport instead of number last. You want to be last, I'm happy to accomodate. Just because there's a gap in the final spacing just outside the LOM doesn't mean there's another one six miles further out. The next gap might be at 30 miles.


Here's where I also got a problem. Without fail, if a pilot arrives at the LOM a grand above GS and 40 kts too fast because of his OWN piss poor decent planning, and I ask if he needs to manuever to get down, the reply is always "Naw, we got it, no problem". But if a controller puts him at the LOM a grand high and fast, half the time he phones the Supe to complain. Anybody doing this job for a number of years knows what a DC-9 or a 737 is capable of doing, when there's a will.

AND, for what it's worth, the last NWA DC-9 I dunked, it was at the pilot's request. I replyed by asking if he could show me his best impression of a 727. We had a chuckle, and he did a da*n fine job of it too!

 

[cessna_driver2]

When I'm worried about negative deck angle I just roll inverted and make it positive.

On another note. The first time I fly with another pilot I tell him I'm working on a new landing technique where I put the nose gear on first and then work the mains down. It gets them every time.

Ah so your the one who bounced the plane hard a few years ago huh. Try the correcting for the cross wnd next time.

 

[chperplt]

I say if it aint a slam dunk, it aint fun!!!

My passengers hate the Beech 1900 anyway, so who cares, right??

Unless the cockpit doors are open, no one seems to know or care how steep an angle we came down at. I like to give an the passengers an "E" ride..

 

[Typhoon1244]

With respect to "giving the passengers a ride," I'm assuming you guys are putting me on, right? When someone's taking a trip somewhere, I'd like their ride on my airplane to be the least memorable part of the experience! I'd much rather have a passenger not notice the flight at all than have them telling their grandchildren years later, "we were screaming out of the sky like a flaming meteor!"

 

[chperplt]

Typhoon1244

I do my absolute best to make every flight enjoyable and fun. Even when we get the slam dunk, I try to do it with finesse.

 

[MetroSheriff]

Hey Typhoon,

TOO LOW, FLAPS!!!


Uhh ya think they heard that???

 

[Typhoon1244]

TOO LOW, FLAPS!!!

Uhh ya think they heard that?

Well, with any luck at all, they didn't feel it!

(Hey, if I was perfect, I wouldn't be flying here!)


I thought you'd abandoned this revival meeting for good, Metro...good t'see ya.

 

[kabz]

Think I noticed a pilot initiating a descent from a turn ... smooth and lazy-8 style, rather than the nasty stomach dropping you normally get ....

This guy/gal probably knew their stuff cos they had some fun shooting the visual down the river into DCA.

(Yeah we can TELL when you are having fun up there ... !!!)
(Was a Continental 73)