I would certainly vote to disband SAPA. Then with the elimination of the buffer between the pilots and management we could all see things as they truely are. I suspect a union drive would be successful 6 mos to a year after the demise of the SAPA mechanism. Our SAPA reps are well intentioned, hard working people but the ultimate result of SAPA seems to be to deflect, deflate, and deminish the interests of the pilot group they represent.
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
- Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
- Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
- Share the passion for aviation
- Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun
For Those About to Vote/Not Vote ALPA At SkyWest...
- Thread starter 120% Torque
- Start date
- Watchers 61
Welcome to Flightinfo.com
- Register now and join the discussion
- Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
- Invite your friends
- Share the passion of aviation
- Friendliest aviation community on the web
120% Torque
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2002
- Posts
- 277
Following below is actual dialog between a Sapa Leader countering the concerns of a line pilot five years ago. Now with time as the ultimate judge who was right and who was wrong?
Skywest Line Pilot: There is no language in our policy manual that awards punitive damages to pilots that are affected by these violations or to discourage the company from continuing this practice.
Sapa Leader: I am not a proponent of punitive damages. Pilots should get what they deserve, based upon the agreed upon letter and spirit of our policy manual/contract.
Line Pilot: Had Sapa nailed down all the loose language these past five years your idealistic statement would be true. Unfortunately Sapa has not and pilots continue to be shorted on many fronts. Punitive damage compensation seems appropriate in light of the fact Sapa if in existance in a year will have talked a lot about change but 24 months later little “nailing down” will have occurred.
Sapa Leader: Maybe. Do me a favor, and put this in as a General Member Topic (GMT). I think the GMT generator is working now at http://www.thesapa.org . This will force it onto the agenda again.
Line Pilot: This is getting ridiculous. Sapa has a history of leaving far too many issues unresolved. There is a severe need to do it right and do it right the first time. Time would then !00% be freed up for other issues without waising time with “it’s a work in progress” progress reports 24 months later in Sapa meetings.
Line Pilot: The reserve bucket system was forced upon us with out any input from the general members.
Sapa Leader: The representative body is where we have our input as pilots. I strongly encourage any and every pilot to utilize the communications tools available to us within the pilot group. These tools are manned by pilot volunteers, just like you. It was not forced upon, we approved it. Not every issue will come to a general member vote. If you are dissatisfied with the job that any of your Reps are doing for you, there are recall provisions in the bylaws, available at www.thesapa.org.
Line Pilot: Need the info. Building the bucket system without one iotta of what you were doing, then presenting it as temporary, then “ooops, meant to say it was permanent” doesn’t cover it boys. Sapa, as the incumbants can get away with a lot of things that frankly really piss off a lot of the general members but because many have given up hope being heard from or have been driven to apathy feeling Sapa is like a homeless dog. It stinks up the whole place and just wont go away. If pilots were left feeling like they still had any say there would be more recalls. Many have shifted their hopes for change to UPA who seem interested in listening. Only time will tell.
Line Pilot: Ready reserve has not only gone away after the Olympics but it is being abused now.
Sapa Leader: Abuse is a tough word. It sucks, but it is by policy. Would I like to see a more chambered sort of reserve, to include RR? You bet. Do I think that we'll be guaranteed, or even likely to receive it through contract negotiations based upon our current policy -- without paying a hefty price in another area of our policy -- if we certify an in-house union right now? Nope.
Line Pilot: Don’t pin Sapa’s hopes or blame its failures on the outcome of UPA. Sapa has failed in many areas, not the least being the way reserves are handled.
Line Pilot: It is concerning how management continues changing our medical coverage.
Sapa Leader: Lets' air out the specific changes. I think that we fared better than most other companies. I also think that other airlines' union contracts allow for increases and/or changes.
Line Pilot: “I also think”. How about some solid, measurable written data to back this up?
Line Pilot: It is apparent Sapa is not going to be successful in creating a separate pilot policy manual. (Its been almost 2 years now since this was first brought up.)
Sapa Leader: They really haven't been that bad. I think you might be surprized. We have made progress and are on track.
Line Pilot: Nice try. The bottom line is that the ball has been dropped and nothing has been done with this matter month after month after month regardless of how you imply that experts are combing through this document line by line as we speak. You already told us a year ago that Tony Fizer went through the whole thing in two days but then it got put on the backburner.
Line Pilot: SAPAs plan to scrap the legal defense plan for pilots per your December meeting minutes doesn't represent what most pilots have asked for.
Sapa Leader: The current program is better, allows more flexibility in choosing attorneys, provides no limits, and is currently provided at no cost to the pilot.
Line Pilot: Tell you what, you go ahead with whatever program makes you feel good as long as there is ALWAYS the option for any pilot to opt out and bring his own attorney. And I’m talking specifically to the Pilot vs Company type issues.
Discussion ensued with regard to the current organizing efforts. The group’s final consensus was that SAPA would continue to remain neutral during the current pilot efforts to attain collective bargaining.
They then went on to battle those who tried to organize the push for an in house union, parroting what much of the information that Ford and Harrison/management put out.
Skywest Line Pilot: There is no language in our policy manual that awards punitive damages to pilots that are affected by these violations or to discourage the company from continuing this practice.
Sapa Leader: I am not a proponent of punitive damages. Pilots should get what they deserve, based upon the agreed upon letter and spirit of our policy manual/contract.
Line Pilot: Had Sapa nailed down all the loose language these past five years your idealistic statement would be true. Unfortunately Sapa has not and pilots continue to be shorted on many fronts. Punitive damage compensation seems appropriate in light of the fact Sapa if in existance in a year will have talked a lot about change but 24 months later little “nailing down” will have occurred.
Sapa Leader: Maybe. Do me a favor, and put this in as a General Member Topic (GMT). I think the GMT generator is working now at http://www.thesapa.org . This will force it onto the agenda again.
Line Pilot: This is getting ridiculous. Sapa has a history of leaving far too many issues unresolved. There is a severe need to do it right and do it right the first time. Time would then !00% be freed up for other issues without waising time with “it’s a work in progress” progress reports 24 months later in Sapa meetings.
Line Pilot: The reserve bucket system was forced upon us with out any input from the general members.
Sapa Leader: The representative body is where we have our input as pilots. I strongly encourage any and every pilot to utilize the communications tools available to us within the pilot group. These tools are manned by pilot volunteers, just like you. It was not forced upon, we approved it. Not every issue will come to a general member vote. If you are dissatisfied with the job that any of your Reps are doing for you, there are recall provisions in the bylaws, available at www.thesapa.org.
Line Pilot: Need the info. Building the bucket system without one iotta of what you were doing, then presenting it as temporary, then “ooops, meant to say it was permanent” doesn’t cover it boys. Sapa, as the incumbants can get away with a lot of things that frankly really piss off a lot of the general members but because many have given up hope being heard from or have been driven to apathy feeling Sapa is like a homeless dog. It stinks up the whole place and just wont go away. If pilots were left feeling like they still had any say there would be more recalls. Many have shifted their hopes for change to UPA who seem interested in listening. Only time will tell.
Line Pilot: Ready reserve has not only gone away after the Olympics but it is being abused now.
Sapa Leader: Abuse is a tough word. It sucks, but it is by policy. Would I like to see a more chambered sort of reserve, to include RR? You bet. Do I think that we'll be guaranteed, or even likely to receive it through contract negotiations based upon our current policy -- without paying a hefty price in another area of our policy -- if we certify an in-house union right now? Nope.
Line Pilot: Don’t pin Sapa’s hopes or blame its failures on the outcome of UPA. Sapa has failed in many areas, not the least being the way reserves are handled.
Line Pilot: It is concerning how management continues changing our medical coverage.
Sapa Leader: Lets' air out the specific changes. I think that we fared better than most other companies. I also think that other airlines' union contracts allow for increases and/or changes.
Line Pilot: “I also think”. How about some solid, measurable written data to back this up?
Line Pilot: It is apparent Sapa is not going to be successful in creating a separate pilot policy manual. (Its been almost 2 years now since this was first brought up.)
Sapa Leader: They really haven't been that bad. I think you might be surprized. We have made progress and are on track.
Line Pilot: Nice try. The bottom line is that the ball has been dropped and nothing has been done with this matter month after month after month regardless of how you imply that experts are combing through this document line by line as we speak. You already told us a year ago that Tony Fizer went through the whole thing in two days but then it got put on the backburner.
Line Pilot: SAPAs plan to scrap the legal defense plan for pilots per your December meeting minutes doesn't represent what most pilots have asked for.
Sapa Leader: The current program is better, allows more flexibility in choosing attorneys, provides no limits, and is currently provided at no cost to the pilot.
Line Pilot: Tell you what, you go ahead with whatever program makes you feel good as long as there is ALWAYS the option for any pilot to opt out and bring his own attorney. And I’m talking specifically to the Pilot vs Company type issues.
Discussion ensued with regard to the current organizing efforts. The group’s final consensus was that SAPA would continue to remain neutral during the current pilot efforts to attain collective bargaining.
They then went on to battle those who tried to organize the push for an in house union, parroting what much of the information that Ford and Harrison/management put out.
Last edited:
Let me get this straight. SAPA HAD a President a couple years ago (Mark) who WAS looking out for the pilots and sticking it to management as much as he could; and the SAPA Reps ran him out of town in a coup d'état.
Now SAPA believes they are powerless and need a way to stick it to management so the SAPA leadership is recommending dissolving the organization itself?
The entertainment never ends.
Now SAPA believes they are powerless and need a way to stick it to management so the SAPA leadership is recommending dissolving the organization itself?
The entertainment never ends.
Morning Wood
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 16, 2001
- Posts
- 551
He wasn't run out, he left on his own to greener pastures.
WayBack
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2004
- Posts
- 1,153
Oh, well then if it's on FI.com, it must be true.
Here, let me post a transcript of a conversation of Obama playing cards in my basement with my friends. Give me about 2 hours to type it...I mean look for it.
Trust me, you want to here it. He reviels all!
Skywest Pylot
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Posts
- 338
That is an absolute lie! Mark was on the verge of being fired for standing up to management. Remember when he showed up in court to defend Don D? This was after the other (sell out) SAPA reps teamed up with management to fight D. Douglas (one of our own). Do you remember when Mark refused to sign management's Non-disclosure agreement because he didn't want to keep any company "secrets" from the pilot group (whom he truly represented)? As the SAPA/management lynch mob was at his doorstep Mark got the interview and job with Alaska.
Skywest Pylot
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Posts
- 338
What 120% has shared here is a debate that happened a LONG time ago between a former SAPA rep D. Cain (a total management sell out and lap dog) and a former Skywest Captain on SAPA forums. I watched the whole thing (with a bowl of popcorn in hand). BTW, Ready Reserve was implemented for the 2002 winter olympics in SLC. Management told us Ready Reserve was temporary to make sure flights to and from the games went smoothly. They lied about this like SO many other things. Apparently now they call pilots in for Ready Reserve to taxi airplanes around the airport. Ridiculous! SkyWest management has 0 respect for their pilots.
Last edited:
WayBack
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 28, 2004
- Posts
- 1,153
That last two ALPO carriers I flew for, Ready Reserve pilots taxi'd airplanes around, rode the brakes for mx, did engine runs and what not.
SKYW did the right thing and kept ALPO off the property, so why not let this thread die?
COOPERVANE
Member since 1967
- Joined
- Mar 2, 2002
- Posts
- 2,167
ASA was doing this to our RR's for a while. At first it was to "help out" maintainance, (I had no problem helping out) then the Co. realized they could send home 3 maint. guys and save some $. I had a problem with that!
The senior guys and ALPA's response was basically.
"sucks to be on reserve don't it?"
Skywest Pylot
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Posts
- 338
Ok, we get it, you don't like ALPA or organized labor. If you are tired of this thread then don't open it. No body is holding a gun to your head. The point I am trying to make is the SkyWest pilots have had multiple opportunities to get things in writing but haven't.
Share this page
Latest resources
-
-
-
-
-
AC 90-89C - Amateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing HandbookAmateur-Built Aircraft and Ultralight Flight Testing Handbook
- Neal
- Updated:
