For the nostalgic gearheads

[mar]

Aircraft Engine Historical Society

Information on the OX-5 and R-2800.

Lots of links.

Enjoy.

 

[Timebuilder]

Cool site. Thanks.

 

[Timebuilder]

"ADI."

Now I understand what a "wet takeoff" is, and why I would want one.

Great stuff. It figures that hot rodders got sodium valves from airplanes, too.

A shame the FAA won't give credit for non-aviation mechanical experience.

 

[mar]

Bummer.

Did I not explain it well enough?

Maybe I should've mentioned this to help clarify the concept: When I flew Metroliners through a serious rain or snow shower I would observe the EGT drop several degrees. Theoretically for those few seconds I could increase the torque without exceeding any limitations.

Water injection works on turbine engines too--right into the compressor.

 

[Timebuilder]

No, you did fine. I just have a better picture of why the system is there, and what is gained from its use.

I knew that my 'vette ran better on moist spring evenings, but the idea of such a system to recreate that effect on an aircraft engine never occured to me.

Nor did I fully appreciate the nuances of dynamic crankshaft balancing in the R-2800.


I particularly like the mention of Pratt and Whitney returning a bearing with 7000 hours to service because of "no appreciable wear." LOL.

 

[surplus1]

Re: Bummer.

Water injection works on turbine engines too--right into the compressor.

Sure does. If I'm not mistaken, the RR Dart engine on the Fokker/Farchild F27 series uses water injection for takeoff, just like the DC-6.

By the way, congrats on your new rating. I've spent a lot of hours in the left seat of that bird and it's one of my favorites of all time.

I admit I don't envy you operating in the harsh environment of Alaska. Have you "frozen" any plugs on start yet?

I'm wondering -- does your company maintain the cabin heaters or do you have some STC that I might not know about?

One of the places I flew this bird was at Zantop. Got a chance to put some time in the "swing tail" modification. Interesting.

I'd love to fly the 6 again. There's nothing quite like the rumble of an R2800.

Best wishes

 

[mar]

Former -6 Capt, eh?

I knew there was reason for your level-headed writing.

You're darn right they maintain the cabin heaters.

When it's really bloody cold we'll leave #4 running if we don't have ground power so we can keep the cabin heater running.

Of course that doesn't do anything for the back of the cabin where we're earning our money, but it makes a huge difference when we get back up front.

A cold metal yoke will suck the heat out of your hand quicker than anything.

Not only that but the cabin heater provides heat to the windscreen for deice.

I've got a little time in the swingtail as an FE. I was never too keen about flying an airplane where the tail was attatched to the fuselage with two hinges and twelve latches.

But as it's been pointed out to me, when she crashed the tail stayed in one piece. It was the wing spar that busted...

Fly safe ok?

 

[bart]

Nice post. Very interesting.

As for water injection, the Darts installed on Gulfstream 1s have water injection, I would assume the F27s do as well.

The turbo-compaound Allison was wild. An exhaust turbine to add power to the crankshaft. Interesting idea.

 

[Smoking Man]

F-27 Water Meth

RR 532-7r and 552-7r (1860 mod)

The F-27 also uses water injection right into the first stage of the comperssor. You had a 5 min continuous burn limit , however you would be out of water two engine ops well before that, so I would guess that was for an engine failure. During the summer a wet takeoff was almost an every leg event.

RR was very strict about the ratio of water to meth, If I recall correctly it was something like 66% water and 34% methonal. The meth was only to keep the water from freezing at altitude and was not so good on the engine if it was used at a ratio other than what RR had came up with.

The Wistle pig is truly a unique animal, only 2 oz of hydraulic fluid, nws lube. Gear, NWS, and brakes were all pneumatic, it would sound like an 18 wheeler using the brakes.

 

[mar]

Funny Fokker

Only 2 oz of hyd. fluid, eh? And it's only for nws lubrication? Weird.

I think the Metro's resevoir is 2.8 or 3.2 qts or somewhere in that neighborhood.

The DC6 res. is 5.4 gals. Total system capacity: 14.5 gals:

NWS
Flaps
Gear
Brakes
Two cargo doors
and the windshield wipers.

I always thought that was funny. Hydraulic windshield wipers.

 

[Smoking Man]

Hydraulic windshield wipers?

That is different, hope that you would not have a leak in the line on the wshield.

Ok here is another one about the F-27, the Deice pannel had a toggle switch for every section of boot on wing, the boots were vertical scissor, the best way to describe them would be like the keys on a piano, black, white, black,etc.
The toggle could operate one section or both and never trigger any other section of the boots to operate, so you could only pop one section if you wanted to, or you could go back to the section of the wing if you did not like the break form the auto section.

 

[surplus1]

Thanks mar, I really like that bird of yours. Flew '7's too, they were fast, but that engine was a nightmare.

Speaking of FE's, where do you get a good engineer these days? Do you have pilots doing it or are they for real? A good man in that seat was worth his weight in gold. Kept me out of all sorts of trouble. For a while at Z they were training new hire pilots to be FE's. They survived, but it quadrupled my work load. Nothing like having an eager beaver shut down all four by agressive use of carb heat.

Know what you mean about "cold yokes". I've had them peel all the skin off my hands when I wasn't smart enough to wear gloves.

I always wondered about all those heaters. Seemed strange to set the wings, the tail and the fuselage on fire all at the same time. And then those buttons for fire control -- even after years I had a hard time trying to remember which one I had to push. More than once I dumped both banks into the wrong heater compartment (in the sim) and got my wrists slapped. Still a great bird though. I like Douglas airplanes.

On the F27 - Those pneumatics are fun. Especially if you don't get the seals winterized and you go from warm wx to very cold ops. For awhile there we'd blow every seal with each attempt to retract the gear, until we got the Canadians to install the right seals for winter ops. Goose Bay is not the greatest place to be stuck and for that matter, neither is Gander.

Another thing I hated were those pitch locks on the Dowty- Rotols. Never had one try to run away but sure hung a lot of 'em. I often wished the Brits had stayed out of the prop business and I still wish that the Prince of Darkness (Lucas) would stay out of electrics (but that's another airplane). I never really missed that airplane, although I did get to take it to some interesting places.

Between the Fokker and that thing built in Bavaria, you've had your hands full, Smoking Man?

 

[Smoking Man]

surplus1

We would operate with the HPC levers in Lockout to get remove the 32 degree lock, they had a mod that beefed up the 20 degree lock so someone bought off on letting us operate with out the 32 degree lock. Never hung one although I did have one go to feather in flight for no reason. MX never did come up with an answer for that.

The one thing I do not miss about the wistle pig is smacking my right knee on the separation valve every time I would exit the airplane. I do miss the pneumatics singing after the gear came up.

As far as the Dork it is definitely the other end of the world for turbo props.

 

[mar]

A *great* question

<<Speaking of FE's, where do you get a good engineer these days? Do you have pilots doing it or are they for real?>>

Yeah, no kidding. I fumbled about in that seat for about 900 hours. I was only good for bringing coffee, the paper and removing the trash.

We have a few profession full-time FEs who know every trick in the book and can keep the flight heading in the right direction.

Here's one I learned a few months ago:

If a wing heater ain't lightin' off it might be fouled spark plugs. To burn out the plugs turn on the heater switch and trip the wing heater fuel pump circuit breaker. Run it like that for a few minutes and then turn the fuel pump back on. Worked like a charm when I saw it done.

I suppose we get half of our FEs out of the maintenance hangar and the other half are pilots who want my seat.

I agree there is a real difference between the eager beavers and the guys who are there to learn the airplane and the company.

On the whole, I think we've got a real good bunch of guys. The chief pilot does an excellent job of screener out guys that just "won't fit in."

If someone expresses an interest in an FE position one of the very first things he gets to do is go along on a flight and shadow the FE. That way he can see for himself exactly what's involved. The crews also get to "interview" him and report back to the chief pilot. If the guy is still interested (and if the chief pilot receives some favorable feedback) then the applicant gets an interview with HR and some check airmen.

It's worked really well and with one glaring exception has produced some diligent hard working FEs.

On a bit of a tangent I must say that I'm convinced there's no better way to run the cockpit of a large complicated transport category airplane than with three guys.

I admit I'm biased, I've never flown anything more sophisticated than a Metroliner. But when things get dicey the best combination of CRM in my opinion is to have one guy flying the airplane and the other two working on the problem.

There is absolutely no substitute for good training and discipline and the more the better.

Surplus1 do you really have over 1000 posts? Where have you been hiding?

If it's been in PFT or RJDC threads that explains it. I never click on those.

 

[Timebuilder]

I often wished the Brits had stayed out of the prop business and I still wish that the Prince of Darkness (Lucas) would stay out of electrics (but that's another airplane).

One shop where I once worked had a sign next to the parts department.

"Lucas refrigerators are why the British drink warm beer."

It would have been nice if Lucas had stayed away from the electrical business altogether.