For the CFII's....

de727ups

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Huh?
So.....today I'm up with my instrument student who busted his checkride for not monitoring the ADF ident during the last minute of his NDB approach. There is an NDB approach to 03L at KSFF but it's one of those on the airport navaids were the navaid is the only IAF and no step downs. In my mind you have to fly over the NDB and do the full procedue on an approach like this. Approach refuses our request for the full procedure but offers vectors to the final....but there is no FAF. I'm thinking...this is gonna be interesting. We'll, the guy just vectors us to final and tells us to call the tower and that's it. Is this legal? Standard practice anywhere else? Now....I could see if approach verified your position as within 10 NM of the navaid, you would be okay to drop down to the MDA. (he never gave us our position) Also, we were VFR doing practice approaches....which might make a difference. Anyway....just wondered what you all thought...I hope I explained it okay.
 

Hovernut

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10-10-CLEAR

We have one of those at SFB, Sanford, Florida. The cause of many a pink-ticket (including one of mine.)

If getting vectored, approach MUST give you your distance at turn-on @ or within 10nm for you to know you're on the final. Once you're within 10 degrees of the final course, you can descend to MDA and go missed @ station passage, or land if that's your intent.

I always have my students start their timer when ATC gives us our turn-on distance so they can dead-reckon their distance to the threshold....it's always good to have a good sense of positional awareness!!! Also, if that NDB has a VOR radial crossing it as an arrival route, or for any other reason, why not have it tuned into NAV1 or 2 to get another check on position as you approach the beacon. You can use the 60:1 rule to determine how far you are away from the beacon when the CDI starts coming alive!! That's a trick we learned in pre-GPS A/C to help out with that "mental moving map!"

...can't wait to fly coupled approaches....if I ever get a derned class date:eek:
 

bobbysamd

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Full approach

I agree with you about having to shoot the full approach if the NDB is on the field.

I'd imagine you were in VFR conditions and flying VFR. You would have to shoot the full approach in IFR conditions or if you're on a clearance. So, you would be running the timer IAF outbound for the two minutes or whatever and for the outbounds and inbounds of the procedure turn, etc.

I agree with running the timer after you're within the ten degrees and are inbound. You're probably flying the approach at something like 90-100 kts, so that way you would have some positional awareness.
 

bigsky

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Does sound like the controller is very sloppy in his procedures... During actual IFR he would have to give distance from field during turn onto final.(If not You need to query him)
As far as doing the full approach it does not appear to be necessary as long as long as RV are provided. Im sure they dont want to tie up the airspace longer than necessary.
A Proc turn required unless:
Straight in, procedure turn not authorized,
1 min hold in lieu of pt,
dme arc,
RADAR VECTORS
timed approachesfrom hold fix,
teardrop procedure

If facility is on the airport the aircraft is considered to be on final approach upon completion of the penetration turn AND 10 miles from field.
 

tdvalve

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"So.....today I'm up with my instrument student who busted his checkride for not monitoring the ADF ident during the last minute of his NDB approach."

According to your post, your student busted because the ident wasn't monitered during an NDB approach. With most examiners, this is a pretty good way to turn a white slip into pink. The rest of your post is interesting, but has nothing to do with the failed check ride. In any event, it's the pilot's responsibility to fly the approach IAW the approved procedure. If distance from the station is unknown, don't descend!
 

de727ups

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Huh?
The student busted his first ride because the examiner turned off the ADF reciever during the last minute of the approach and the student didn't have the audio up loud enough to catch it....even though I warned him about this trick the day before.

My question pertained to something that happened during the post failure flight getting him ready for the second checkride.

Sounds like if ATC gives distance from the airport, than a vector to this type of approach is fine...I've just never seen it done that way before.
 

tdvalve

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"I agree with you about having to shoot the full approach if the NDB is on the field."

If there's an approach control available you'll likely never get cleared for the full approach. (unless you make it clear it's for practice.) There's no need (and no practical way) to accurately time the approach, and this wouldn't be legal anyway. The MAP is the NDB, not the time from another fix.
 

tdvalve

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"The student busted his first ride because the examiner turned off the ADF reciever during the last minute of the approach and the student didn't have the audio up loud enough to catch it...."

Doing it at that stage of the approach on a check-ride seems kind of chicken-sh**! The student was probably concentrating so hard on staying on course and altitude he wouldn't have noticed a nuclear explosion!
 

bobbysamd

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Turning off the ADF

Sure, it's chickensh-t, but keeping the ADF volume up during an NDB approach is extremely important. Just like always tuning and identifying a station. These are things you gotta do.

But, yes, it is chickesh-t. It's a tough way to bust a ride when everything else met standards.
 

de727ups

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Huh?
Nuclear explosions..

HAHA...that's a good one. I couldn't agree with you more. How many guys have been killed by a NDB station going off the air? There are so many bad things that can happen to you flying IFR that aren't in the PTS but the NDB monitoring thing is. This kid is really a good pilot and I just hated to see him bust on such a thing....but...that's the way it goes. I sent him to this DE because the other guy makes you do a partial panel NDB....now that's hard core....
 

FlyinBrian

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Doing it at that stage of the approach on a check-ride seems kind of chicken-sh**!

I would agree with you IF the student had the volume properly adjusted. However, if the student flew the whole approach with the volume turned down, the examiner was probably going to fail him on it anyway, and just failed the equipment to demonstrate how important it is to keep the volume turned up.
 

Acestick

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Always Identify & Leave it on as loud as you possibly can...

A U.S. Military transport plane was shot down over the Soviet Airspace ( Cold war, years ago ) because it crossed into the russian's airspace...It was tracking an NDB it thought was located in Turkey and was trying to fly around the Soviet ADIZ...But it didn't ident properly and ended up tracking a russian beacon right into the soviet airspace...


But all that aside, if the NDB is located on the field, then why would you waste your time worrying about timing?

Do the procedure turn and when your inbound, you descend to MDA - Missed approach isn't determined by time, but rather by STATION PASSAGE!!!!!

At least thats the way I always do it with a navaid on the field!!!
 

supsup

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NDB's on the field

If your shooting the whole approach you have to atleast time the outbound leg. Thats the only way to assure yourself your within the 10 nm circle. 2 min. outbound when the NDB is on the field, 1 min. when the the NDB is off the field. Even with a 120kt GS traveling in a straight line for 3 min. only takes you 6nm from the station. Unless your using the FORCE (which is probably more accurate than the actual NDB approach), I don't see any other way of shooting the approach on "own navigation".

supsup
 

AAflyer

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Or if you are lucky, you can shoot an NDB approach and not have an ADF onboard. That is how are 737-800 pilots do it here at AA. Boy does it make it easy to shoot an NDBwhen you are following a magenta line.

AAflyer:D
 
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