Focus Air Second Officer

[kevdog]

Oh, what a great idea! A "just-barely-qualified" recip pilot, not flying for a year doing mailroom duty, then onto the panel of a 747 (good luck, sonny . . it ain't a 727), then to the right seat after a year sitting sideways and two years since getting his license. That is stupid in the extreme.

Back around 2000, the supply of experienced heavy pilots dried up and Atlas starting having to take recip and RJ pilots. The reality is, the Captains I know there all complained about the lousy quality of the FOs they started getting. The company didn't care . . . they just made the Captains bear the burden. But at least the FE's were well experienced. It's not the Captain's job to make up for the years of judgment, skill, and knowledge that his crew ought to have . . . . things that only years of experience working one's way up the ladder can earn.

The 747 isn't a 414 or a Barbie jet, and flying internationally and especially in South America isn't for novice beginners.

Sounds like the captains are complaining if they can't get a better job where the entire crew is qualified to fly into crappy airports like in South America.

 

[Classicdriver]

The 747 isn't a 414 or a Barbie jet, and flying internationally and especially in South America isn't for novice beginners.

SA isn't a good place for even experienced crews, if the experience wasn't in SA. Driving back and forth across he Pacific won't prepare you for the fun down south.

 

[Flying Ninja]

I was also at CAT for a very short time and saw first hand how the 250 hour wonders who paid there way into my cockpit made flying unsafe for the rest of us who paid our dues.

Did you mean CAPT? And it's 225 hour wonders by the way...if they even finish flying out those hours. Many have less than that entering the regionals from that crap program.

 

[Flying Ninja]

The 747 isn't a 414 or a Barbie jet, and flying internationally and especially in South America isn't for novice beginners.

Makes you wonder about their CRM and Safety philosophy, doesn't it?

 

[big_al]

I never said pay for flying is the way to go, but how can you blame some people for doing it? Their only other option is pretty lame and basically screwing you over anyway. Just look at all the people who drop down thousands for a 4 year degree and never even use it in the real world. to some, paying for time is not that bad. but again, I would not do it. I realise its all about paying your dues and instructing is the best way to learn to be a great pilot.

 

[Draginass]

Sounds like the captains are complaining if they can't get a better job where the entire crew is qualified to fly into crappy airports like in South America.

Actually, the captains I was talking about weren't flying South America lines, they were doing Europe, Middle, and Far East. And even then they said most of these inexperienced FOs couldn't handle that, much less SA.

 

[JohnnyP]

...

Just curious, what type of problems were the FO's having going into europe/asia? Also, how did you guys get YOUR first experience's down south? I wonder if those captains were talking to their buddies about you not being able to handle it.....everyones gotta be new at something some time or another.........

 

[NuGuy]

RANT ON

I read quite a bit here about people who do not want to instruct, who do not think they are cut out for instructing, or who think it is a waste of time, and yet complain about how they cannot get enough hours.
I know very few people who WANT to instruct. I sure didn't WANT to. Those that do are few and far between and are truly a rare resource. The majority of former instructors I meet did it because they had to. No one gets rich doing it. You do it because it is necessary. You do the best you can to provide your students with the absolute best education you can give them because you are a professional. If you are not good with students, you find a way to become good with them because you must. This job is filled with things I don't want to do. I do them so I can do the things I DO want to.
If you are not willing to do the difficult things you must occasionally do, find some other field of work that doesn't require it.

There are never any guarantees about the state of the industry. Everyone finds thier own way of coping with the uncertainty.

RANT OFF

I've said in other threads that if it were up to me, I'd switch around the CFI mins and the part 135 IFR mins for cargo.

That way, those who don't want to instruct could launch right off into the gloom with night cargo, and those who really want to instruct would have the experience to be a worthwhile instructor, a could command a living wage doing it.

Nu

 

[McNugget]

Just curious, what type of problems were the FO's having going into europe/asia? Also, how did you guys get YOUR first experience's down south? I wonder if those captains were talking to their buddies about you not being able to handle it.....everyones gotta be new at something some time or another.........

Wow, I went from flying the "Barbie Jets" to flying a DC10 to SA and didn't have any problems. It isn't friggin rocket science. I also didn't have to fly with any crappy captains who treated me like some kind of dumbass for being an FO.

 

[L-1011-500]

Did you mean CAPT?

No I meant CAT (Custom Air Transport). They have a PFT agreement with Henry George's Jet Center or something like that. Seeing he and Tommy Duckworth(CAT DO) are both Eastern SCABS they are adept at taking the easy route. Pilots are our own worst enemies. That I'm afraid will never change.

As for Focus Air there are a few Cadets here but not all of them are. There are some FO's in class right now that have enough experience to be Captains at most places I've worked. The Second Officer minimums are just that. With all the FE's on the street right now and more to come seems like that's what they are hiring.

 

[Draginass]

Just curious, what type of problems were the FO's having going into europe/asia? Also, how did you guys get YOUR first experience's down south? I wonder if those captains were talking to their buddies about you not being able to handle it.....everyones gotta be new at something some time or another.........

Yes, everybody's new at one time or another . . . . but not new to heavy jets (much less a 742F) AND the world's most demanding flying environment. Since I was an FO at the time, I didn't fly with the guys that were having trouble so whatever info I have is, like I said, second hand. However, I heard it from enough good Captains whose judgment I trusted to believe it 100%. I remember one Captain (whom I hadn't flown with before), after leveloff departing the UK, said "I really appreciate flying with you." I said "ah, ok, whatya mean by that? He said "You can run a checklist, you can talk on the radio, you anticipate what I want when I'm flying the airplane . . . believe me it's really refreshing compared to a lot of the FOs we've gotten recently." They were going after the individuals per se, the rather blaming the company for hiring inexperience, then winking them through training instead of washing-out those who just couldn't cut it. At that time the majors were sucking the good and experienced FOs out of the company at a rate of 25 per month. The company was back-filling seats with whatever they could find.

Company training in SA operations varys from outstanding (AA & Delta I believe have a ground school and an extensive check airman flight orientation), to a joke (many supplemental carriers with a "yea, read the Jepps airport pages" and "don't worry, your Captain will show you the ropes.")

The point is . . . one step at a time. Going from a prop or small jet to a 742F is too big a bite for all but a small minority of exceptionally skilled guys. Most need to grow their way into it. If this was the military where you had hard crews, and were groomed, cared for, and constantly trained & evaluated, it'd be different. The tramp freighter biz is completely different. Unsatisfactory guys get passed through the system with almost no supervision or quality control and the Captains, rightfully so, do not see it as their job to provide remedial training to weak FOs . . that's the company's job. And of course, we know what the companys do about it, even when the Captains complain to the Chief Pilot.

Yea, a few guys can come from small airplanes and do fine. But looking at it objectively with a wide-angle lens, from safety concerns alone, you can't justify it as a sound policy to hire inexperienced pilots in 747s, much less into highly demanding flying environments . . . and ESPECIALLY into supplemental carriers whose training programs are marginal anyway.

 

[Draginass]

Wow, I went from flying the "Barbie Jets" to flying a DC10 to SA and didn't have any problems. It isn't friggin rocket science. I also didn't have to fly with any crappy captains who treated me like some kind of dumbass for being an FO.

That's great. Glad you made the transition well. "Isn't friggin rocket science?" No it's not . . . it's a lot more serious and deadly than that. Arrogance, a low maturity level, and inexperience does not serve a pilot well in a demanding flying environment.

 

[V1andgo]

Dear Draginess,
I have flown with CA and FO alike, some with many 1000s of hours, that could not decide what side goes up in an airplane. Experience is a not all that matters, it is attitude and the ability/willingness to learn. Hiring the right person for the job and training is what matters. By the way I have flown the Classic and currently train on the 400.
To all out their - yes size does matter- but the 747 is a very easy flying piece of equipment, a pilot’s airplane. Truly she is the Queen of the sky. You do not have to have heavy experience or flown the Shuttle to fly her. What you do need, the willingness to learn and apply yourself. That's all. Anyone who tells you different is blowing smoke.

 

[kevdog]

Dear Draginess,
I have flown with CA and FO alike, some with many 1000s of hours, that could not decide what side goes up in an airplane. Experience is a not all that matters, it is attitude and the ability/willingness to learn. Hiring the right person for the job and training is what matters. By the way I have flown the Classic and currently train on the 400.
To all out their - yes size does matter- but the 747 is a very easy flying piece of equipment, a pilot’s airplane. Truly she is the Queen of the sky. You do not have to have heavy experience or flown the Shuttle to fly her. What you do need, the willingness to learn and apply yourself. That's all. Anyone who tells you different is blowing smoke.

Are you referring to dragon breath?

 

[Draginass]

Dear Draginess,
I have flown with CA and FO alike, some with many 1000s of hours, that could not decide what side goes up in an airplane. Experience is a not all that matters, it is attitude and the ability/willingness to learn. Hiring the right person for the job and training is what matters. By the way I have flown the Classic and currently train on the 400.
To all out their - yes size does matter- but the 747 is a very easy flying piece of equipment, a pilot’s airplane. Truly she is the Queen of the sky. You do not have to have heavy experience or flown the Shuttle to fly her. What you do need, the willingness to learn and apply yourself. That's all. Anyone who tells you different is blowing smoke.

If you read my posts carefully instead of knee-jerk reacting, you'd see that I don't necessarily disagree with you. I never said that experience is the ONLY thing that matters, just that it matters A LOT for vast majority of pilots. If an experience track record isn't important, then almost all the airlines' recruiting departments are "blowing smoke" according to you. "Hiring the right person for the job" is a pretty platitude, but isn't very useful when making a practical decision on hiring. A person can have all the great attitude and willingness to learn, but past performance (experience, attitude, and willingness to learn) is the best predictor of success. Maybe that's why the airlines with the most lucrative positions don't have ab initio programs and generally hire those pilots with a track record of relevent experience. As far as training goes, airlines do the minimum necessary to get the quality they want due to cost considerations. Again, a pilot with relevent experience is almost certainly going to be easier/faster to train than one without it.

As far as flying the 74 goes, yes it is a nice flying airplane, but as a 74 pilot yourself I find it disturbing that you grossly underestimate it's ability to tax an inexperienced pilot. In my day I've flown quite a few military aircraft and have type ratings in 3 wide-body and 1 narrow-body airliners. To my mind the 747 is, by far, the most challenging civil aircraft I've flown. 747 freighters especially are very often flown at max gross weight (either structural or runway) out of marginal high airports, at night, onto complex departure procedures with high terrain all around. That's tough enough for an experienced pilot, much less an inexperienced one. And to remind you, BTW, I never said you had to have "heavy" (used in the formal definition sense) experience.

What you do need, the willingness to learn and apply yourself. That's all.

I guess I and virtually the entire airline industry would disagree with you that "That's all" you need.

I think some of you "Doth protest too much" which maybe says something in itself.