FMS warning for non-aligned takeoff?

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Those who have taxied to 22 at LEX at night know how easy it is to want to just turn left and line up on 26.

Just about every time I've been there under similar conditions, I have had to fight that natural tendency, read the signs and go real slow around that whole cocked-up hold line/runway cross/left turn/2nd hold line/2nd runway area. It is so easy to see how this could happen. I haven't been there in a while, but I hear there is contruction and as a result it's currently even MORE confusing than usual. This really could have been any of us.

I agree. While not overly "confusing", at LEX it is not as obvious as most airports are because of the 'V' area where the runways are close together. Gainesville, FL (GNV) is another one that comes to mind. However, (I think) the shorter runway there is longer than 3400'. Maybe there should be a sign that says "No Jets Allowed" or "Bugsmashers Only". Major airports like STL have a similar situation but the runways are plenty long.
Like HJ asked, you'd think the FMS would be capable of doing routinely. Perhaps Honeywell, et.al. will make it part of the package.
Regarding automation, I would like to think that over the last 20 years it has prevented more accidents than it has caused. We'll never really know the benefits because the accident never happened. From a pilot perspective, it is more "fun" to hand fly though.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Why would you need such a system?

I can think of 49 reasons.

 

[Singlecoil]

I can think of 49 reasons.

...and rest assured, because of this accident, RAAS will be mandated for all Part 25 aircraft just like GPWS was after a series of accidents. My airline was also testing the system and had it turned off due to too many distractions, but an improved version will soon be coming to a cockpit near you. It would have prevented this accident and will prevent accidents in the future.

 

[Icelandair]

St. Paul downtown has 2 runways that are VERY closely aligned like that too. Just 10 degrees off each other. It is very confusing, even when you haven't woken up at 4 am after probably 5 hours of sleep.

 

[Charty]

8/26 is only 75ft. wide.39 degree difference. How many clues do you need? Be observant.

 

[mynameisjim]

I find it humorous that many pilots think safety systems are unimportant. If we don't want a runway alignment system, what else would you take off your airplane? No T/O warning horn? GPWS? EGPWS? RADAR? Gear Horn? Overspeed Clacker? How about the minimums bug?

How about just get rid of the master caution light. A REAL pilot should be always monitoring his systems.

Get real guys, and stop pretending that we don't make mistakes.

I prefer to read books without bookmarks, because real readers should be able to remember the page they were on. I mean, come on.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

8/26 is only 75ft. wide.39 degree difference. How many clues do you need? Be observant.

That is true but if the news people were correct (big if, I know), 8/26 had a "wide shoulder" that actually gives the appearance that is 150' wide....and I hope you're perfect in all your flights.

 

[Regul8r]

I find it humorous that many pilots think safety systems are unimportant. If we don't want a runway alignment system, what else would you take off your airplane? No T/O warning horn? GPWS? EGPWS? RADAR? Gear Horn? Overspeed Clacker? How about the minimums bug?

How about just get rid of the master caution light. A REAL pilot should be always monitoring his systems.

Get real guys, and stop pretending that we don't make mistakes.

I prefer to read books without bookmarks, because real readers should be able to remember the page they were on. I mean, come on.

That's how I brief my crew..."Are you guys ready to make some mistakes! We're only human! Tell the passengers we're keeping our fingers crossed for a safe arrival but we should be okay because my Mommy's up here holding my hand."

 

[PCL_128]

I find it humorous that many pilots think safety systems are unimportant. If we don't want a runway alignment system, what else would you take off your airplane? No T/O warning horn? GPWS? EGPWS? RADAR? Gear Horn? Overspeed Clacker? How about the minimums bug?

How about just get rid of the master caution light. A REAL pilot should be always monitoring his systems.

Get real guys, and stop pretending that we don't make mistakes.

I prefer to read books without bookmarks, because real readers should be able to remember the page they were on. I mean, come on.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[wmuflyguy]

Funny...

I'm wondering if you'd said the same with 9E or Mesa, or Jetstream accident. Interesting how our sentiments change when the accident is caused by sheer mistakes of so-called 'experienced' pilots compared to less experienced pilots that 9E, Mesa, etc., are accused of hiring.

Why can't we just say that it was a pilot's error and and nothing else. Yep, I can see 'spin-zone' at maximum power.

Sad indeed what has happened, but sad also how everyone has a different perspective. F/O 44 (hired 3/99), Captain, 35 (hired 11/99), wow...now you can't point a finger at so-called low-experience...so, let's just start feeling empathy.

Almost comical!

Because we don't know what actually happned yet. Yes we know thye went off the wrong runway, but we do not know WHY.

 

[VABB]

I find it humorous that many pilots think safety systems are unimportant. If we don't want a runway alignment system, what else would you take off your airplane? No T/O warning horn? GPWS? EGPWS? RADAR? Gear Horn? Overspeed Clacker? How about the minimums bug?

How about just get rid of the master caution light. A REAL pilot should be always monitoring his systems.

Get real guys, and stop pretending that we don't make mistakes.

I prefer to read books without bookmarks, because real readers should be able to remember the page they were on. I mean, come on.

I don't think anyone here is implying that safety systems are unimportant. However, I think it is very important that we, as pilots, do not become too complacent and totally rely on the warning systems. The warning systems are there to supplement us and warn us if we miss something.

August 16, 1987. Northwest Airlines 255, an MD-82. The flaps and slats were not set for takeoff, but the crew was able to advance the throttles anyway. But, there is supposed to be a horn to warn you that something is wrong. Why did it not sound? Because the circuit breaker was pulled.

The warning systems are only as good as they are designed to be.

 

[bvt1151]

I wonder how many times an aircraft has taken off the wrong runway in OMA or BWI. The reason we never heard about it is because all intersecting runways are long enough.

 

[Charty]

That is true but if the news people were correct (big if, I know), 8/26 had a "wide shoulder" that actually gives the appearance that is 150' wide....and I hope you're perfect in all your flights.

.Ok, if that wasn't noticeable, what is your explanation about the heading difference. You always verify that before you start the takeoff roll. You learn that from day one of flight school. We are talking about taking off from the wrong runway.This does not require perfection. I still have trouble beleiving that is what they did.

 

[cjdriver]

CatYaack, Good Stuff.
I too have some simple checks I do that my father taught me (20k+ hours and still flying professionally in his 70's). On runway line up for takeoff, or before crossing the threshold on landing, for example. Make them simple and make them habits. It works.
By the way, for those young guys who think it can't happen to them, one of my Dad's favorite sayings is "There's those who have, and those who will, and I'm trying to put mine off as long as possible". He's done a good job so far, I hope I can do the same.

 

[bvt1151]

"There's those who have, and those who will, and I'm trying to put mine off as long as possible".

Your father is a wise man.

 

[ReverseSensing]

Almost comical!

You know, you're really a fick suck. This kind of crassness may play big in Europe, but it is really uncalled for.

 

[CatYaaak]

CatYaack, Good Stuff.
I too have some simple checks I do that my father taught me (20k+ hours and still flying professionally in his 70's). On runway line up for takeoff, or before crossing the threshold on landing, for example. Make them simple and make them habits. It works.
By the way, for those young guys who think it can't happen to them, one of my Dad's favorite sayings is "There's those who have, and those who will, and I'm trying to put mine off as long as possible". He's done a good job so far, I hope I can do the same.

Like BVT says, your father's a wise man. I guess we all want to be like that..."putting it off" until we hang it up by doing whatever it takes to cheat the Fate.

 

[DrewBlows]

I'm seeing a lot of the "invincible" hazardous attitude in this thread. If there is a safety system that would make me safer, sign me up.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Just wondering if any FMS geeks have any flame-free thoughts.

I knew I was asking too much.

 

[pilotnbr1]

I like to enable the "lrn position" (think it stands for long range position although I'm probably wrong) display when I set up the FMS. It displays an "x" on the selected MFD where the gps derived position is. Ideally the gps position and the fms derived position (indicated by the little airplane graphic) should be one and the same and an "x" seems to always mark the airplane. On takeoff in the RJ when you press the toga buttons the FMS derived position is updated to the lat long of the runway that your programmed into the FMS. If there is a mismatch between your freshly updated FMS position and your GPS position you should see on your MFD a displacement between the "little airplane" and the "x". This is a handy trick that works well in ATL with the runway specific RNAV procedures and could save you some explaining later. Don't know how well this would work at an airport like LEX where the ends of the two runways are located so close together. Learned this on IOE at ASA. Fortunately have never seen this in action but the idea seems sound. Do any of you guys do this?