FMS warning for non-aligned takeoff?

[falconpilot]

Quote:
Originally Posted by VABB
It's called your eyeballs. Use them to cross-check your heading indication and also to take a look at the moving map.

We need less automation and more common sense.


There's alot of truth in the above.... However, mistakes happen and they will continue to happen... There are systems that can prevent accidents like yesterday from happening... What was the guy in the tower doing? I realize its not there job to "babysit" or to watch over what we do, but Isn't this a team effort...ie.. ATC and Pilots working together? JMO. Anyhow what I was getting at is the fact that COMPLACENTCY kills... When we as pilots loose touch with all the things that they beat into us during training... ie.. use checklist, dont be in a hurry, situational awareness, etc... When we get away from all that, mistakes happen. Let this be a lesson to all of us... I bet everyone out there after yesterday is looking at their HSI before they take off... Especially at night... Come on be honest.. You know you have. This is all just my opinion of course. I sincerely hope I have not offended anyone in anyway... Thoughts and prayers to everyone who has lost from the accident.. Thoughts and prayers to everyone who works at Comair. And finally thoughts and prayers to all of us who day to day get in the cockpit to make a living. Lets do our best to never become complacent when our hands are on the yoke and throttles..

 

[azpilot]

Not that it is a cure all to this potential problem but just briefing how you are going to taxi out to the runway helps! I am an FO and I try to pay attention to the taxi diagram and where we are going at all times. I have caught captains making taxi mistakes, not wrong runway mind you, and I know I will make the same mistakes when I upgrade.

I have heard from quite a few captains that some of their FO's just sit there and stare out the window. They do not pay attention to what is going on. This job requires professionalism and it requires vigilance at all times. If you can do neither you need to quit. The Comair crash was an experienced crew and I hope at some point we will all learn the factual accounts of what happened.

I also like the set the heading bug to the assigned runway before taxi and/or the CDI needle.

 

[FlyBunny]

Interesting.

Those who have taxied to 22 at LEX at night know how easy it is to want to just turn left and line up on 26.

Just about every time I've been there under similar conditions, I have had to fight that natural tendency, read the signs and go real slow around that whole cocked-up hold line/runway cross/left turn/2nd hold line/2nd runway area. It is so easy to see how this could happen. I haven't been there in a while, but I hear there is contruction and as a result it's currently even MORE confusing than usual. This really could have been any of us.[/quote]

Funny...

I'm wondering if you'd said the same with 9E or Mesa, or Jetstream accident. Interesting how our sentiments change when the accident is caused by sheer mistakes of so-called 'experienced' pilots compared to less experienced pilots that 9E, Mesa, etc., are accused of hiring.

Why can't we just say that it was a pilot's error and and nothing else. Yep, I can see 'spin-zone' at maximum power.

Sad indeed what has happened, but sad also how everyone has a different perspective. F/O 44 (hired 3/99), Captain, 35 (hired 11/99), wow...now you can't point a finger at so-called low-experience...so, let's just start feeling empathy.

Almost comical!

 

[Publishers]

Empathy is certainly called for. Who of us has not been distracted if not in an aircraft, how about your car or boat, etc.? How many remember setting the heading bug and checking the compass before putting the coals to the old 172 or whatever? How many times have you driven out of your neighborhood and cannot remember if you stopped at the stopped sign.
Pilots are human and sometime stumble or lose focus but for those who think machines could do all this, remember humans made the machines.
We all have those Aw Sh-- moments--just most of the time we make it out and learn something from it. In those cases when we do not make it out, well hopefully others will learn.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

You're right. There are many good plans, yet no perfect ones. Nobody's perfect either, and yet our imperfections vary.

The goal, however, remains the same...safety. Uneventful flights. We're given many aids, procedures, rules, agencies, standards, and information at our disposal to try and mitigate and/or overcome failures, distractions, complacency, fatigue, and ignorance to achieve this. Despite them, we don't always.

But that doesn't change the fact that ultimately, it's up to us...the pilots. No matter what the atmosphere or level of technology/equipment/information at our disposal, being the "final authority" means we can stop the Show entirely if we decide we don't like what's happening or our level of support. Everyone entrusting us with thier lives expects this. It's what a guy sitting in his farmhouse off the end of a runway expects. These are completely reasonable expectations.

Imperfect people we may be, but continually striving for perfection while performing our Lives-at-stake task is the foundation of being a professional.

Plans, SOP's, etc. are essentially defensive measures....designed by imperfect people as well. Things like T/O Config and Gear horns are last-ditch defenses engineered to wake-up someone asleep at his post. Since we aren't clones with identical, inherent succeptabilities or weaknesses and no One-sized-SOP-fits-all, it's advisable to at least mentally supplement them with those targeting our own personal weaknesses and/or holes found in whichever SOP's you're working with.

Defensive measures only work if you are PROactive in applying them. Being proactive equates to vigilance, and professionalism demands that if we aren't supplied them, we seek out, find, and use whatever tools we personally need to maintain it. Different things work for different people.

Working in an Third Worldly environment where frequently you can't count on anything (signage, lights, good/unobstructed runways, ATC, NOTAMS, uncontaminated fuel, a common language, security, good wx info, etc.) only brings into sharper focus how important vigilance is. But Third or First world environment differences don't change "Flying is flying" basics. Vigilance is a Basic.

I find myself reverting to the most basic of basic things at certain trip-points that occur every flight, regardless of location or conditions, as a defence against the hassles, distractions, and sub-standard conditions myself and the other crew might find ourselves immersed in. These are the 2 points/things I do...not that anyone else might give a rat's a$$...

Before asking for the Engine Start checklist I silently admonish myself with the old expression to "Screw your flying head on". I actually get a mental picture of unscrewing my head and threading on a new one (no kidding, it kind of looks like the inflatable autopilot's from the movie Airplane).

I may have been told this expression in the past after screwing up. Or maybe I read it somewhere. I honestly can't remember but for some odd reason that one expression/cliche' has stuck with me, and for me it goes a long way to banish...at least in my conciousness...all the outside-world stuff/distractions/hassles/worries leading up to when we're ready to begin spinning things. Gaining that attitude helps me adhere to SOP's, be aware, and increase my vigilance to a higher level no matter what it was before.

The other trip-point thingy I do is during the last few heartbeats before pushing up the thrust levers. I still do them because the first guy I ever flew jets with told me they were still "always real f***in' 'pohtnt" (that's redneck-ese for "Important")...referring to and reinforcing the notion that you check "killer items" no matter what checklists you'd done, what airplane you're flying, or which airport you're at. He may have off-handedly made it up because I was a newbie...I don't know..but it was that reinforcement of what I'd learned before, despite the fact that I was now "jet flying" and the items tweaked a bit accordingly, that left an impact I suppose. "Always real f-in 'pohtnt", or "ARFP", unlike our other aviation acronyms, is also so hard to say it struck me as very funny at the time.

If I try to remember more than 2 technical things (out of how many possible?) while swinging a golf club the ball is going into the woods. It's why I still silently use that guy's ARFP Checklist. It's short and easy, within my limitations, and I will ALWAYS be at that "just before spooling moment" if I'm taking something into the air.

A..irframe clean and anti-ice.

R...unway....starting inside with compass matching runway heading and clearance to include the runway itself being unobstructed and unthreatened as far as you can see. Contamination considered.

F..laps.

P..erformance...meeting it for that take-off and departure, with all of the above (A,R, and F) factored in and set.

Sure the way I remember those items is silly, but I've done that guy's unpronouncable ARFP checklist from O'hare to KL and Moscow to Cape Town (and too many crapholes in between) for over 2 decades just before pushing the thrust levers up. For me it's like a bad song you can't keep from popping into your head at certain moments, you know? And the more stressful, fatiguing, distracting, and unfamiliar things are, it seems to pop up more loudly and more often. It's saved my a$$ a time or two though, when my pilots head wasn't screwed completely on.

The point is, find something that works for you and do it every time no matter what else happens. Rely on yourself for the Basics, not on PFM boxes.

Excellent post. I am not ashamed to admit I learned something here. But then agian, if you ever stop learning...

ARFP... Gonna get added to my mental "go" list. Its a nice memory device.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Those who have taxied to 22 at LEX at night know how easy it is to want to just turn left and line up on 26.

Just about every time I've been there under similar conditions, I have had to fight that natural tendency, read the signs and go real slow around that whole cocked-up hold line/runway cross/left turn/2nd hold line/2nd runway area. It is so easy to see how this could happen. I haven't been there in a while, but I hear there is contruction and as a result it's currently even MORE confusing than usual. This really could have been any of us.

I agree. While not overly "confusing", at LEX it is not as obvious as most airports are because of the 'V' area where the runways are close together. Gainesville, FL (GNV) is another one that comes to mind. However, (I think) the shorter runway there is longer than 3400'. Maybe there should be a sign that says "No Jets Allowed" or "Bugsmashers Only". Major airports like STL have a similar situation but the runways are plenty long.
Like HJ asked, you'd think the FMS would be capable of doing routinely. Perhaps Honeywell, et.al. will make it part of the package.
Regarding automation, I would like to think that over the last 20 years it has prevented more accidents than it has caused. We'll never really know the benefits because the accident never happened. From a pilot perspective, it is more "fun" to hand fly though.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

Why would you need such a system?

I can think of 49 reasons.

 

[Singlecoil]

I can think of 49 reasons.

...and rest assured, because of this accident, RAAS will be mandated for all Part 25 aircraft just like GPWS was after a series of accidents. My airline was also testing the system and had it turned off due to too many distractions, but an improved version will soon be coming to a cockpit near you. It would have prevented this accident and will prevent accidents in the future.

 

[Icelandair]

St. Paul downtown has 2 runways that are VERY closely aligned like that too. Just 10 degrees off each other. It is very confusing, even when you haven't woken up at 4 am after probably 5 hours of sleep.

 

[Charty]

8/26 is only 75ft. wide.39 degree difference. How many clues do you need? Be observant.

 

[mynameisjim]

I find it humorous that many pilots think safety systems are unimportant. If we don't want a runway alignment system, what else would you take off your airplane? No T/O warning horn? GPWS? EGPWS? RADAR? Gear Horn? Overspeed Clacker? How about the minimums bug?

How about just get rid of the master caution light. A REAL pilot should be always monitoring his systems.

Get real guys, and stop pretending that we don't make mistakes.

I prefer to read books without bookmarks, because real readers should be able to remember the page they were on. I mean, come on.

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

8/26 is only 75ft. wide.39 degree difference. How many clues do you need? Be observant.

That is true but if the news people were correct (big if, I know), 8/26 had a "wide shoulder" that actually gives the appearance that is 150' wide....and I hope you're perfect in all your flights.

 

[Regul8r]

I find it humorous that many pilots think safety systems are unimportant. If we don't want a runway alignment system, what else would you take off your airplane? No T/O warning horn? GPWS? EGPWS? RADAR? Gear Horn? Overspeed Clacker? How about the minimums bug?

How about just get rid of the master caution light. A REAL pilot should be always monitoring his systems.

Get real guys, and stop pretending that we don't make mistakes.

I prefer to read books without bookmarks, because real readers should be able to remember the page they were on. I mean, come on.

That's how I brief my crew..."Are you guys ready to make some mistakes! We're only human! Tell the passengers we're keeping our fingers crossed for a safe arrival but we should be okay because my Mommy's up here holding my hand."

 

[PCL_128]

I find it humorous that many pilots think safety systems are unimportant. If we don't want a runway alignment system, what else would you take off your airplane? No T/O warning horn? GPWS? EGPWS? RADAR? Gear Horn? Overspeed Clacker? How about the minimums bug?

How about just get rid of the master caution light. A REAL pilot should be always monitoring his systems.

Get real guys, and stop pretending that we don't make mistakes.

I prefer to read books without bookmarks, because real readers should be able to remember the page they were on. I mean, come on.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[wmuflyguy]

Funny...

I'm wondering if you'd said the same with 9E or Mesa, or Jetstream accident. Interesting how our sentiments change when the accident is caused by sheer mistakes of so-called 'experienced' pilots compared to less experienced pilots that 9E, Mesa, etc., are accused of hiring.

Why can't we just say that it was a pilot's error and and nothing else. Yep, I can see 'spin-zone' at maximum power.

Sad indeed what has happened, but sad also how everyone has a different perspective. F/O 44 (hired 3/99), Captain, 35 (hired 11/99), wow...now you can't point a finger at so-called low-experience...so, let's just start feeling empathy.

Almost comical!

Because we don't know what actually happned yet. Yes we know thye went off the wrong runway, but we do not know WHY.