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FMS warning for non-aligned takeoff?

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Hugh Jorgan

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 25, 2001
Posts
2,307
Does anyone here fly a system that has a takeoff warning associated with an aircraft heading that doesn't agree with a selected FMS departure runway? I know there are runway mismatch warnings in some systems, but I believe those are based on aircraft position, not heading. If two runways start from essentially the same point as appears to me to be the case in Lexington, that's not enough disparity to trigger the warning? If that's they case, I would guess partway into a takeoff roll, divergence would trigger a mismatch warning too late to abort if it's a significanly shorter runway. I guess the FDR in yesterdays' accident will tell us plenty. Just wondering if any FMS geeks have any flame-free thoughts.
 
It's technique and procedure at a lot of carriers to set the heading bug to the runway heading as soon as it is assigned or advised on the ATIS. The runway checks then should include scanning instruments for the proper heading alignment on all heading indicators and heading bugs.

No person is perfect or makes a perfect plan.
 
Those who have taxied to 22 at LEX at night know how easy it is to want to just turn left and line up on 26.

Just about every time I've been there under similar conditions, I have had to fight that natural tendency, read the signs and go real slow around that whole cocked-up hold line/runway cross/left turn/2nd hold line/2nd runway area. It is so easy to see how this could happen. I haven't been there in a while, but I hear there is contruction and as a result it's currently even MORE confusing than usual. This really could have been any of us.
 
An FMS warning system seems like a doable thing. Enter the departure runway, then once the AHRS gets a bearing missaligned by a few degrees, trigger a warning. But what about MCO, ATL or other airports with 17L/17R and 18L/18R all with the same heading? Who knows...hopefuly in the future we will have such a thing.
 
BigShotXJTdrvr said:
Those who have taxied to 22 at LEX at night know how easy it is to want to just turn left and line up on 26.

Just about every time I've been there under similar conditions, I have had to fight that natural tendency, read the signs and go real slow around that whole cocked-up hold line/runway cross/left turn/2nd hold line/2nd runway area. It is so easy to see how this could happen. I haven't been there in a while, but I hear there is contruction and as a result it's currently even MORE confusing than usual. This really could have been any of us.

Yes...and in a way it was...

A Delta Connection CRJ operated by Comair departing Lexington, Kentucky crashed less than a mile beyond the runway at 6:07am EDT this morning. 49 people died. One person (believed to be the first officer) is in critical condition at the University of Kentucky hospital.

Background
Blue Grass Airport (Lexington, KY) is equipped with two runways. 04/22 is 7000ft x 150ft and 08/26 is 3500ft x 75ft. Developing information says the aircraft was cleared for takeoff from runway 22 which was acknowledged only by a "roger" from the pilots. The aircaft is to believed to have taken off from runway 26, which is half the length of 22 and would have left the aircraft with insufficient room for takeoff.

FlightAware has no flight tracking information for the flight, COM191, besides the flight plan.

The aircraft tail number (not confirmed) is believed to be N431CA (aircraft registration information: N431CA)

Airline Pilot Warned Of Confusing Runway Layout
FlightAware has discovered that in 1993, the pilot of an air carrier filed a report with the NASA ASRS (aviation safety reporting system) after nearly departing from runway 26 when instructed to depart from runway 22 at Lexington.

The report reads, "Aircraft was cleared for immediate takeoff (traffic was inside the marker) on runway 22 at KLEX. We taxied onto the runway and told tower we needed a moment to check our departure routing with our weather radar (storms were in the area, raining at the airport). We realized our heading was not currect for our assigned runway and at that moment, tower called us to cancel the takeoff clearance because we were lined up on runway 26. We taxied clear and then held short of runway 22 for landing traffic. We took off on runway 22 and proceeded without incident. Possible contributing factors were poor visibbility and weather (rain. Confusing runway intersection and tower's request for an immediate takeoff. Suggest possible warning page (similar to Houston Hobby) to clarify multiple runway ends."

The pilot's reference to Houston Hobby's disclaimer is available on FlightAware's airport information page for Houston Hobby (KHOU). The remark reads:

"DUE TO COMPLEX RY CONFIGURATION; WHEN TAXIING TO THRS 12L & 12R AND 17 CHECK COMPASS HEADING BEFORE DEPARTING."

No similar information is available for Lexington airport.

Air Traffic Control Terminology
When given a taxi instruction, aircraft are implicitly cleared across any runway between their current position and the taxi destination. Accordingly, an aircraft being instructed to taxi to runway 22 at KLEX from the terminal could be instructed, "taxi to runway two two" without being told, "cross runway two six."
 
Hugh Jorgan said:
Does anyone here fly a system that has a takeoff warning associated with an aircraft heading that doesn't agree with a selected FMS departure runway?

It's called your eyeballs. Use them to cross-check your heading indication and also to take a look at the moving map.

We need less automation and more common sense.
 
VABB said:
It's called your eyeballs. Use them to cross-check your heading indication and also to take a look at the moving map.

We need less automation and more common sense.

With that I'll agree. Too many RJ pilots get too reliant on the automation and forget about basic pilotage. Many pilots never flew any airliner except the CRJ. Those of us who flew turboprops or less automated jets are at a definite advantage.

A friend who is on the ATR was telling me about jumpseating with one of our RJ crews who did a night go-around in Asheville, NC runway 16 (because they couldn't get down in time). Tower told them to fly right traffic "at or above 3500". They leveled off at 3500', but didn't account for being 5 miles from the airport! The jumpseater tried to convince the captain to climb, and the captain ARGUED! When the GPWS gave him a Terain, Pull UP! it got his attention.

Basic situational awareness is what all pilots need to strive for. I fly the -700 now. It's hard, but you have to keep your own mental picture of where you are and not just rely on the map.
 
It's called RAAS. We got it last year in our MD10/11s. It gave verbal alerts when you entered a runway and when you lined up on final.

It worked great, except it was louder than the radio and guys were missing too many calls, so they deactivated it until they could fix it.

Here's a Raytheon article:

On the commercial side, avionics giant Honeywell has done extensive research into the problem of
runway incursions and has recently won an STC for its runway awareness and advisory system
(RAAS). RAAS is unique in that it does not require new equipment, either on the ground or in the
aircraft, as long as that aircraft is already equipped with Honeywell’s enhanced ground proximity
warning system (EGPWS).
EGPWS already keeps track of aircraft position through GPS, and it has a terrain database that
includes runway position. Using the existing equipment, Honeywell developed a software upgrade that
warns pilots when they’re approaching a runway.
“EGPWS already keeps track of active runways to protect against landing short,” says RAAS Engineer
Ratan Khatwa. “Since we know where you are and where the runways are, this provided us with the
opportunity to significantly reduce runway incursions.”
RAAS’s runway-related aural advisory functions are similar to Ground Marker’s. As a crew taxis near a
runway, RAAS will announce over the cockpit speaker, “Approaching Runway 27 Right.” Testing by
Honeywell has shown that not only does this announcement increase ground situation awareness— it
also helps crews ensure they are setting up for take off on the correct runway.
RAAS includes additional functions. While descending through 750 ft, the system will announce the
name of the runway ahead of the aircraft. If that runway is shorter than a user-selectable value, RAAS
will announce the available runway length. During landing roll or during a rejected takeoff, the distance
remaining to the end of the runway will be announced every 1000 ft. In all RAAS makes 10 different
types of aural announcement, each of which Honeywell says it selected because of a specific runway
incursion incident.
“Each of the RAAS modes exists today because of the data searched during our runway incursions
analysis,” says Khatwa. “Right now, RAAS does not include any information about taxiways because
there wasn’t enough detailed data on taxiway positions with the accuracy needed to include it at this
time.”
Future plans for RAAS include a detailed moving map of the taxiway environment when data becomes
available and, with the aid of automatic dependent surveillance– broadcast (ADS-B), the display of
other aircraft around the airport.​
 
GCD said:
It's technique and procedure at a lot of carriers to set the heading bug to the runway heading as soon as it is assigned or advised on the ATIS. The runway checks then should include scanning instruments for the proper heading alignment on all heading indicators and heading bugs.

No person is perfect or makes a perfect plan.

You're right. There are many good plans, yet no perfect ones. Nobody's perfect either, and yet our imperfections vary.

The goal, however, remains the same...safety. Uneventful flights. We're given many aids, procedures, rules, agencies, standards, and information at our disposal to try and mitigate and/or overcome failures, distractions, complacency, fatigue, and ignorance to achieve this. Despite them, we don't always.

But that doesn't change the fact that ultimately, it's up to us...the pilots. No matter what the atmosphere or level of technology/equipment/information at our disposal, being the "final authority" means we can stop the Show entirely if we decide we don't like what's happening or our level of support. Everyone entrusting us with thier lives expects this. It's what a guy sitting in his farmhouse off the end of a runway expects. These are completely reasonable expectations.

Imperfect people we may be, but continually striving for perfection while performing our Lives-at-stake task is the foundation of being a professional.

Plans, SOP's, etc. are essentially defensive measures....designed by imperfect people as well. Things like T/O Config and Gear horns are last-ditch defenses engineered to wake-up someone asleep at his post. Since we aren't clones with identical, inherent succeptabilities or weaknesses and no One-sized-SOP-fits-all, it's advisable to at least mentally supplement them with those targeting our own personal weaknesses and/or holes found in whichever SOP's you're working with.

Defensive measures only work if you are PROactive in applying them. Being proactive equates to vigilance, and professionalism demands that if we aren't supplied them, we seek out, find, and use whatever tools we personally need to maintain it. Different things work for different people.

Working in an Third Worldly environment where frequently you can't count on anything (signage, lights, good/unobstructed runways, ATC, NOTAMS, uncontaminated fuel, a common language, security, good wx info, etc.) only brings into sharper focus how important vigilance is. But Third or First world environment differences don't change "Flying is flying" basics. Vigilance is a Basic.

I find myself reverting to the most basic of basic things at certain trip-points that occur every flight, regardless of location or conditions, as a defence against the hassles, distractions, and sub-standard conditions myself and the other crew might find ourselves immersed in. These are the 2 points/things I do...not that anyone else might give a rat's a$$...

Before asking for the Engine Start checklist I silently admonish myself with the old expression to "Screw your flying head on". I actually get a mental picture of unscrewing my head and threading on a new one (no kidding, it kind of looks like the inflatable autopilot's from the movie Airplane).

I may have been told this expression in the past after screwing up. Or maybe I read it somewhere. I honestly can't remember but for some odd reason that one expression/cliche' has stuck with me, and for me it goes a long way to banish...at least in my conciousness...all the outside-world stuff/distractions/hassles/worries leading up to when we're ready to begin spinning things. Gaining that attitude helps me adhere to SOP's, be aware, and increase my vigilance to a higher level no matter what it was before.

The other trip-point thingy I do is during the last few heartbeats before pushing up the thrust levers. I still do them because the first guy I ever flew jets with told me they were still "always real f***in' 'pohtnt" (that's redneck-ese for "Important")...referring to and reinforcing the notion that you check "killer items" no matter what checklists you'd done, what airplane you're flying, or which airport you're at. He may have off-handedly made it up because I was a newbie...I don't know..but it was that reinforcement of what I'd learned before, despite the fact that I was now "jet flying" and the items tweaked a bit accordingly, that left an impact I suppose. "Always real f-in 'pohtnt", or "ARFP", unlike our other aviation acronyms, is also so hard to say it struck me as very funny at the time.

If I try to remember more than 2 technical things (out of how many possible?) while swinging a golf club the ball is going into the woods. It's why I still silently use that guy's ARFP Checklist. It's short and easy, within my limitations, and I will ALWAYS be at that "just before spooling moment" if I'm taking something into the air.

A..irframe clean and anti-ice.

R...unway....starting inside with compass matching runway heading and clearance to include the runway itself being unobstructed and unthreatened as far as you can see. Contamination considered.

F..laps.

P..erformance...meeting it for that take-off and departure, with all of the above (A,R, and F) factored in and set.

Sure the way I remember those items is silly, but I've done that guy's unpronouncable ARFP checklist from O'hare to KL and Moscow to Cape Town (and too many crapholes in between) for over 2 decades just before pushing the thrust levers up. For me it's like a bad song you can't keep from popping into your head at certain moments, you know? And the more stressful, fatiguing, distracting, and unfamiliar things are, it seems to pop up more loudly and more often. It's saved my a$$ a time or two though, when my pilots head wasn't screwed completely on.

The point is, find something that works for you and do it every time no matter what else happens. Rely on yourself for the Basics, not on PFM boxes.
 
Last edited:
Baby Cakes said:
There is no such capability today in aircraft FMS's.

Yes there is, but until now, airlines have shunned the extra cost.

Honeywell offers the Runway Awareness and Advisory System (RAAS) as a software add-on to existing EGPWS systems. Among other things, it gives you an aural warning if you take off on a runway that is too short for your aircraft. It would have prevented this accident, but it's a $12,000 option that most airlines do not choose to add (and I'm not sure if it's only available on Honeywell EGPWS boxes- the CRJ has Collins avionics).

Maybe this system will now be mandated for Part 121 air carriers- another regulation that is written in blood.
 
Those runway's at LEX are easy to confuse. I watched a mainline DL 73 line up on 26 and I have almost done it myself. Early morning lights on 26...yea I can see how it would happen.
 
EagleRJ said:
Yes there is, but until now, airlines have shunned the extra cost.

Honeywell offers the Runway Awareness and Advisory System (RAAS) as a software add-on to existing EGPWS systems. Among other things, it gives you an aural warning if you take off on a runway that is too short for your aircraft. It would have prevented this accident, but it's a $12,000 option that most airlines do not choose to add (and I'm not sure if it's only available on Honeywell EGPWS boxes- the CRJ has Collins avionics).

Maybe this system will now be mandated for Part 121 air carriers- another regulation that is written in blood.

Where do you draw the line? We are pilots here people, if you mess up you pay the consequences (unfortunately the passengers do to) This should be an impetus for every pilot to slow... down...and... think. There is so much automation in the cockpit, pilots are losing basic skills.
 
Regul8r said:
There is so much automation in the cockpit, pilots are losing basic skills.

Bingo. But what do you think the next FAA mandate will be? More computers or software to have distracting us.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by VABB
It's called your eyeballs. Use them to cross-check your heading indication and also to take a look at the moving map.

We need less automation and more common sense.



There's alot of truth in the above.... However, mistakes happen and they will continue to happen... There are systems that can prevent accidents like yesterday from happening... What was the guy in the tower doing? I realize its not there job to "babysit" or to watch over what we do, but Isn't this a team effort...ie.. ATC and Pilots working together? JMO. Anyhow what I was getting at is the fact that COMPLACENTCY kills... When we as pilots loose touch with all the things that they beat into us during training... ie.. use checklist, dont be in a hurry, situational awareness, etc... When we get away from all that, mistakes happen. Let this be a lesson to all of us... I bet everyone out there after yesterday is looking at their HSI before they take off... Especially at night... Come on be honest.. You know you have. This is all just my opinion of course. I sincerely hope I have not offended anyone in anyway... Thoughts and prayers to everyone who has lost from the accident.. Thoughts and prayers to everyone who works at Comair. And finally thoughts and prayers to all of us who day to day get in the cockpit to make a living. Lets do our best to never become complacent when our hands are on the yoke and throttles..
 
Not that it is a cure all to this potential problem but just briefing how you are going to taxi out to the runway helps! I am an FO and I try to pay attention to the taxi diagram and where we are going at all times. I have caught captains making taxi mistakes, not wrong runway mind you, and I know I will make the same mistakes when I upgrade.

I have heard from quite a few captains that some of their FO's just sit there and stare out the window. They do not pay attention to what is going on. This job requires professionalism and it requires vigilance at all times. If you can do neither you need to quit. The Comair crash was an experienced crew and I hope at some point we will all learn the factual accounts of what happened.

I also like the set the heading bug to the assigned runway before taxi and/or the CDI needle.
 
Interesting.

BigShotXJTdrvr said:
Those who have taxied to 22 at LEX at night know how easy it is to want to just turn left and line up on 26.

Just about every time I've been there under similar conditions, I have had to fight that natural tendency, read the signs and go real slow around that whole cocked-up hold line/runway cross/left turn/2nd hold line/2nd runway area. It is so easy to see how this could happen. I haven't been there in a while, but I hear there is contruction and as a result it's currently even MORE confusing than usual. This really could have been any of us.[/quote]

Funny...

I'm wondering if you'd said the same with 9E or Mesa, or Jetstream accident. Interesting how our sentiments change when the accident is caused by sheer mistakes of so-called 'experienced' pilots compared to less experienced pilots that 9E, Mesa, etc., are accused of hiring.

Why can't we just say that it was a pilot's error and and nothing else. Yep, I can see 'spin-zone' at maximum power.

Sad indeed what has happened, but sad also how everyone has a different perspective. F/O 44 (hired 3/99), Captain, 35 (hired 11/99), wow...now you can't point a finger at so-called low-experience...so, let's just start feeling empathy.

Almost comical!
 
Empathy is certainly called for. Who of us has not been distracted if not in an aircraft, how about your car or boat, etc.? How many remember setting the heading bug and checking the compass before putting the coals to the old 172 or whatever? How many times have you driven out of your neighborhood and cannot remember if you stopped at the stopped sign.
Pilots are human and sometime stumble or lose focus but for those who think machines could do all this, remember humans made the machines.
We all have those Aw Sh-- moments--just most of the time we make it out and learn something from it. In those cases when we do not make it out, well hopefully others will learn.
 
CatYaaak said:
You're right. There are many good plans, yet no perfect ones. Nobody's perfect either, and yet our imperfections vary.

The goal, however, remains the same...safety. Uneventful flights. We're given many aids, procedures, rules, agencies, standards, and information at our disposal to try and mitigate and/or overcome failures, distractions, complacency, fatigue, and ignorance to achieve this. Despite them, we don't always.

But that doesn't change the fact that ultimately, it's up to us...the pilots. No matter what the atmosphere or level of technology/equipment/information at our disposal, being the "final authority" means we can stop the Show entirely if we decide we don't like what's happening or our level of support. Everyone entrusting us with thier lives expects this. It's what a guy sitting in his farmhouse off the end of a runway expects. These are completely reasonable expectations.

Imperfect people we may be, but continually striving for perfection while performing our Lives-at-stake task is the foundation of being a professional.

Plans, SOP's, etc. are essentially defensive measures....designed by imperfect people as well. Things like T/O Config and Gear horns are last-ditch defenses engineered to wake-up someone asleep at his post. Since we aren't clones with identical, inherent succeptabilities or weaknesses and no One-sized-SOP-fits-all, it's advisable to at least mentally supplement them with those targeting our own personal weaknesses and/or holes found in whichever SOP's you're working with.

Defensive measures only work if you are PROactive in applying them. Being proactive equates to vigilance, and professionalism demands that if we aren't supplied them, we seek out, find, and use whatever tools we personally need to maintain it. Different things work for different people.

Working in an Third Worldly environment where frequently you can't count on anything (signage, lights, good/unobstructed runways, ATC, NOTAMS, uncontaminated fuel, a common language, security, good wx info, etc.) only brings into sharper focus how important vigilance is. But Third or First world environment differences don't change "Flying is flying" basics. Vigilance is a Basic.

I find myself reverting to the most basic of basic things at certain trip-points that occur every flight, regardless of location or conditions, as a defence against the hassles, distractions, and sub-standard conditions myself and the other crew might find ourselves immersed in. These are the 2 points/things I do...not that anyone else might give a rat's a$$...

Before asking for the Engine Start checklist I silently admonish myself with the old expression to "Screw your flying head on". I actually get a mental picture of unscrewing my head and threading on a new one (no kidding, it kind of looks like the inflatable autopilot's from the movie Airplane).

I may have been told this expression in the past after screwing up. Or maybe I read it somewhere. I honestly can't remember but for some odd reason that one expression/cliche' has stuck with me, and for me it goes a long way to banish...at least in my conciousness...all the outside-world stuff/distractions/hassles/worries leading up to when we're ready to begin spinning things. Gaining that attitude helps me adhere to SOP's, be aware, and increase my vigilance to a higher level no matter what it was before.

The other trip-point thingy I do is during the last few heartbeats before pushing up the thrust levers. I still do them because the first guy I ever flew jets with told me they were still "always real f***in' 'pohtnt" (that's redneck-ese for "Important")...referring to and reinforcing the notion that you check "killer items" no matter what checklists you'd done, what airplane you're flying, or which airport you're at. He may have off-handedly made it up because I was a newbie...I don't know..but it was that reinforcement of what I'd learned before, despite the fact that I was now "jet flying" and the items tweaked a bit accordingly, that left an impact I suppose. "Always real f-in 'pohtnt", or "ARFP", unlike our other aviation acronyms, is also so hard to say it struck me as very funny at the time.

If I try to remember more than 2 technical things (out of how many possible?) while swinging a golf club the ball is going into the woods. It's why I still silently use that guy's ARFP Checklist. It's short and easy, within my limitations, and I will ALWAYS be at that "just before spooling moment" if I'm taking something into the air.

A..irframe clean and anti-ice.

R...unway....starting inside with compass matching runway heading and clearance to include the runway itself being unobstructed and unthreatened as far as you can see. Contamination considered.

F..laps.

P..erformance...meeting it for that take-off and departure, with all of the above (A,R, and F) factored in and set.

Sure the way I remember those items is silly, but I've done that guy's unpronouncable ARFP checklist from O'hare to KL and Moscow to Cape Town (and too many crapholes in between) for over 2 decades just before pushing the thrust levers up. For me it's like a bad song you can't keep from popping into your head at certain moments, you know? And the more stressful, fatiguing, distracting, and unfamiliar things are, it seems to pop up more loudly and more often. It's saved my a$$ a time or two though, when my pilots head wasn't screwed completely on.

The point is, find something that works for you and do it every time no matter what else happens. Rely on yourself for the Basics, not on PFM boxes.

Excellent post. I am not ashamed to admit I learned something here. But then agian, if you ever stop learning...

ARFP... Gonna get added to my mental "go" list. Its a nice memory device.
 

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