FMS Operation (Dual vs. Int-Xfer)

[Gulfstream 200]

Just curious,

What do your department SOP's say about FMS Operation??

Looking for opinions about running them in Dual or Init X-fer.

If modes differ for type of operation (Atlantic Crossing etc.) please note also!

Thanks!

 

[banned username 2]

Just curious,

What do your department SOP's say about FMS Operation??

Looking for opinions about running them in Dual or Init X-fer.

If modes differ for type of operation (Atlantic Crossing etc.) please note also!

Thanks!

We use Initiated Transfer all the time...

Honeywell NZ-2000

 

[ultrarunner]

We did the same at the airlines. Make the change, verify it, execute it and send it over.

 

[fokkerjet]

Looking for opinions about running them in Dual or Init X-fer.

If modes differ for type of operation (Atlantic Crossing etc.) please note also!

We started off with Init X-fer with our F900's many years ago. When we got our Fokker's, Init X-fer was not an option so we were forced to operate in dual. That was about 9 years ago, since then we switched to dual on the GIV's, GV's and F900EX's (Honeywell) and the F2000 (Collins) and have never had a problem, or a problem that couldn't be corrected quickly (that goes for all pilot's, new or experienced with FMS's).

As for crossings, no differences with one exception. Our long range aircraft have 3 FMS's, FMS 1 & 2 are set up in dual, FMS 3 is a back up and most crews just enter origin and destination, then enter the coast out, lat/long points of the cleared route, EPT's and coast ins.

 

[750driver]

Our flight dept. used Init X-fer mode. I prefer it since you can make a change on the non-flying pilot's side, view it, and approve or modify it, prior to transfer.

 

[GVFlyer]

Gulfstream Flight Operations uses and recommends dual.

When I've flown with owner-operators, I've used initiated transfer for obvious reasons.

When I flew with Ford, admittedly some while ago, they used intiated transfer, partially to keep the original flightplan on the right side when they were given directs.

In my view, the need to use initiated transfer diminishes as skill with the equipment increases. That is to say, if you don't know the possible outcome of what you're doing, initiated transfer is a good thing. You can keep trying until you get it right and you haven't adversely affected anything. If you do know, then intiated transfer just adds unnecessary steps each time you interact with the FMS.

 

[fokkerjet]

Gulfstream Flight Operations uses and recommends dual.

Was that the case in the GIV also? I know Falcon taught Init X-fer back in the 900 days, but in the GV and 2000, Init X-fer was only for newbees during initial, otherwise dual.

 

[banned username 2]

Gulfstream Flight Operations uses and recommends dual.

Not sure why you would want to use Dual Mode... What is the benefit? Even very experienced people make "Fat Finger F$#% Up" mistakes on the FMS, why send both of you to BFE?

Are you really that busy up there that the extra step to send is that difficult?

 

[GVFlyer]

Was that the case in the GIV also? I know Falcon taught Init X-fer back in the 900 days, but in the GV and 2000, Init X-fer was only for newbees during initial, otherwise dual.

Yes,sir. Dual was used from day one in the G-IV. It is also what we used at Andrews AFB in the C-20's.

 

[fokkerjet]

Not sure why you would want to use Dual Mode... What is the benefit? Even very experienced people make "Fat Finger F$#% Up" mistakes on the FMS, why send both of you to BFE?

Our policy is (if you want to call it that) is to set up the FMS on the ground, before you even move the aircraft. Once preflighted and confirmed by the other pilot, what changes can you do to screw up the works? Even a "direct to" can be recalled in seconds with a "direct" and then "previous". And again, I haven't seen people (at least the 30 or 40 pilots that I've flown with at our company over the years) get in the kind of trouble the "Init X-fer" would have prevented. If anything, it may be more safe because it seems to slow down the PNF and keeping the PF more in the loop, kind of like moving a critical switch.

 

[ultrarunner]

Our policy is (if you want to call it that) is to set up the FMS on the ground, before you even move the aircraft. Once preflighted and confirmed by the other pilot, what changes can you do to screw up the works?

Gee, a re-route maybe????? A runway switch maybe? A different approach. A change in destination?

TONS of stuff.

 

[empenage]

Dual over land.

Initiated transfer over water.

Ahh, but the real question is how do you configure your 3 FMS's?

1) 1-2, 2-1, 1-3??

 

[Gulfstream 200]

reason I brought this up is that I have found many people running in Dual.. (I WAS used to Init-Xfer)...

Our SOPs dictate DUAL also...I was also taught this way at DA900 school..I was a little leary at first, but whatever...no big deal. It IS less steps...Seems to be a Gulfstream thing to me and I have never flown a real Gulfstream...

I do kind of like being able to "proof" changes then send them over..makes sense to me..but as far as losing anything and not being able to recover it...I think most running dual only do so on aircraft with 3 FMSs, 2 running in dual and 3rd in Inti Xfer with the entire flight plan in it. I would think running InitXfer would be smart and neccessary in 2 FMS aircraft (poor guys )

Some folks also like the idea of going off Dual to Init at coast out points also..is that a technique some of you do?

maybe this all goes back to the Gulfstream vs. Falcon debate..

 

[Gulfstream 200]

FMS config..

Recieving Flight Plans (Datalink):

1,2,3 in Dual.


In Flight:

1-2 DUAL
3 Init Xfer

 

[fokkerjet]

Gee, a re-route maybe????? A runway switch maybe? A different approach. A change in destination?

TONS of stuff.

If you can't trust your PNF to handle that stuff, you've got other issues in the cockpit other than if to operate in dual or init x-fer.

Not to start another issue, but are you prepared to go raw data if something happens to the FMS or are you totally reliant on the box to get you from A to B? We sidestep all the time at our home airport, the only change I enter is the new ILS frequency (if it has one) in the nav radio, no FMS updating, I've got the chart out incase I need to miss or I plan on a visual pattern. The biggest issue I've seen is when NOT TO go to the FMS.......fly the airplane first and get your head out of the inside of the cockpit and look around outside for traffic.

 

[CLCAP]

We used to use I-xfer on the 601 (NZ-2000) but use Dual on the 604 (Collins 6000). Took a while to get used to but seem to work really well.

 

[NJA Capt]

FSI teaches, and our OPS use, dual in the ce750. Never had a problem. There are enough steps in the box without having to X fer from one to the other.

If you happen to have a "fat finger" day, the plane will still fly fine without FMS input. They did it for years, right?

I used to love watching people "dump" the GNS,s.
"What happened?"
You just made us /A
"What do I do?"
Open the map.

 

[banned username 2]

the plane will still fly fine without FMS input. They did it for years, right?

STOP IT! You're scaring me!

 

[DC3Flyer]

Well said Fokkerjet. Dual is the only way to go!!!!!

 

[Cardinal]

Korean Air Lines used to use dual.

Initially I thought you were referencing this amusing safety audit performed by Delta for KAL http://www.pprune.org/go.php?go=/pub/tech/korean.html. Then the reality struck me. Yikes.