Flying verses non-Flying in the ANG

[AlbieF15]

Okay...in the same category as SWA verses FDX verses JB, etc etc here's a new pro/con list. Go back to flying fighters after a lengthy DNIF (and all the associated spin up) or look at the 40 year old in the mirror and take a a non-flying job with possible promotion potential. Time to retirement could be 2 years or so...

This exercise may be academic pending further physicals, but provided health checks okay in a month there will a decision to make. Pros to flying...merges, sunsets at 350, etc etc. Cons....NVGs, gradesheets, queep, demands on an already busy plate. Pros to other job...ability to continue past year 20, new challenges and leadership roles, less demanding currencies and physical demands. However, I've NEVER done anything but fly, so the "other" job is whole new unknown.

Not to be exclusionary, but I'm interested in hearing from your bros out there who have left the cockpit (and maybe returned?) on how you felt about the non-flying gig. No need to call me names for even considering not flying....2000+ hours in the jet and only a few people know better than me how much I'd be giving up. If a slight medical detour had not appeared requiring a battle this whole argument would be moot--but if did happen and there are hills ahead to climb either way.

So...you active bros on staff tours...and former drivers now doing staff/IMA/ASOC or other non-flying gigs...I'd love to hear what you like (and don't) about life without JP-4.

 

[Slim]

AlbieF15,

You may have read some of my posts commenting on this scenario.

I served nearly all my NG career non-rated. I went DNIF during UPT at CAFB and never returned to flying status. I finished my NG career on the ARNG side. While it wasn't what I wanted, I don't regret any of it. I served my first two years enlisted.

On the pro side, no AFTPs, thus more time at home and a job skill outside aviation/the airlines. The monthly drill check was a plus considering my first year on probation pay. My current employer never gave me a hard time about drill weekends or short notice AD tours.

Con...no more AFTPs or any military flying...no more flight pay...fewer TDYs. As a staff officer, I did get a few TDYs, but not many.

Being non-rated in the ARNG was more common. There are many more non-rated Army jobs than non-rated Air Force jobs. During my time on medical hold, I noticed non-rated types having to work much harder to meet education and training requirements than their rated peers.

No name calling, just wishing you the best no matter which way your career path turns.

Fly safe!

 

[Ih8AFYesmen]

I turned down a flying reserve job when I left AD. Fortunately for me, I had an airline job and a flying reserve job lined up when I left AD. After a LONG talk with the wife, I've decided not to pursue flying in the reserves. The biggest reason was for QOL issues; between the two flying jobs, I'd be gone too much (this is the case in the trash hauling world). I wanted to finish out my 20, so I found a non-flying reserve job. It's really easy duty and I go in whenever I wish, for the most part. Chances of any deployments are slim to none. So basically, I am happy with my QOL.
Now having said that, this reserve job is really boring and seems like a waste of my time (sorry Uncle Sam). I really dread going to work, although it's only 24 days a year. Sad to say, my only motivation is working towards my 20 and a little extra cash. I have to say that I miss the military flying and the commeraderie (sp?). Right now, I am thinking long and hard about flying in the guard/reserve. Family time and a stress-free reserve job is nice though. I guess not all of us can have everything. Well, that's my .02.

 

[Afterprop]

Albie,
First, if anyone flames you, well, they are a complete waste of gravity. Now, a viewpoint from a heavy driver: While I may have excelled during my time at the Puzzle Palace, I learned I did not enjoy the non-flying, non-operational environment. The non-flying job just didn't have the "immediacy" of operations. As a result, when the powers that be later decided to move me up and away from flying, I chose to retire. No regrets. Without the actual experience of working a desk, I think you will be hard pressed to make an informed decision. After my Pentagon tour, my spin-up to MQ/IP was a walk in the park . . . many of my instructors were surprised to see me using "their" techniques and other's that worked with students. There's nothing like being a greybeard! I expect your spin-up would be a walk as well.

Would the non-flying job include flying as well? I had several jobs at the wing level where I could continue to fly and remain fully qualified. If that is the case, I would look seriously at that option. Otherwise, look in the mirror/at your avatar . . . once you leave, after this opportunity to return, you may not get another.

Definitely return to one of them and get that retirement . . . it's nice getting that monthly Uncle Sam love note.
Cheers,
'Prop

PS - Like I like to say . . . in this business, you never know if you made the right decision until the fat lady sings.

 

[Huggyu2]

Albie,
Fly... fly if you can.... fly until they make you stop (QOL permitting). I'm assuming you're talking about working for an Eagle unit. From what I've seen, Eagle guys can land a job at an A-10, F-18, or F-16 unit. Yeah, learning a new jet/community may not be your cup of tea. But if you get back of DNIF, get back in an ejection seat. In a couple of years, you might change your mind. If that happens, retire, or just go to the non-flying gig. But don't pass up sorties at this point.

 

[scoreboard]

You've been there, done that. Do whats best for your family, flying or not.

Gumby

 

[TonyC]

Flying verses ?


Well, I'm sure we all have our favorites, but who can not help but like John Gillespie Magee's High Flight.

Oh! I have slipped the surly bonds of earth

And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings;
Sunward I've climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth
Of sun-split clouds - and done a hundred things
You have not dreamed of - wheeled and soared and swung
High in the sunlit silence. Hov'ring there
I've chased the shouting wind along, and flung
My eager craft through footless halls of air.
Up, up the long delirious, burning blue,
I've topped the windswept heights with easy grace
Where never lark, or even eagle flew -
And, while with silent lifting mind I've trod
The high untresspassed sanctity of space,
Put out my hand and touched the face of God.


​

I have a personal affinity to a little-known verse (well, let's say it's less well-known) from The Air Force Song by Robert Crawford, the third to be exact.

Here's a toast to the host

Of those who love the vastness of the sky,
To a friend we send a message of his brother men who fly.
We drink to those who gave their all of old,
Then down we roar to score the rainbow's pot of gold.
A toast to the host of men we boast, the U.S. Air Force!

​

I know ya meant versus, but maybe these verses will help you decide. If they still stir your blood...






.

 

[GasPasser]

How about switching planes?

I've known a couple of "F" type guys that have crossed over to the "C" and "KC" world due to the physical effects of high-g flying. Recenly one of my bros. retired from my ANG unit. He spent years in the F-15 until his back cried uncle. He finished out his 20 in the KC. It's not a bad thing and in many ways it can be a good thing. Think of it as another option. Good luck to you!

 

[RJP]

While I personally would prefer to be beaten repeatedly over the cranium with a 2x4 than be a shoe clerk in the ANG, I've got a bro that's an ex-WSO who has one of the best jobs in the AFRES. A deploying (non-flying) staff job coordinating something that I can't figure out. He's constantly on some adventure to a foreign land like Thailand......ah, the Thai......

 

[GasPasser]

not sure if it is flying or not....

The BRAC hearing exposed some future missions for the ANG.....UAVs. You have to be a rated officer to get a job flying a UVA, but it's pretty much a desk job. No JP-8, no helmet, no G's, no poopy suit, no speed-pants, no Chem-D, NO DEPLOYMENTS!!!!!!! But you still can fire missles and blow stuff up. Cool huh!!!You fly them from the good 'ol US of A. Now if they could just find a way to allow us to do it from the comfort of our home on a PC I might be interested. The bad thing for the young guys is you can't build time for the airlines flying UAVs. It may not be something you can take advantage of now, but in a few years there may be plenty of opportunities.

 

[stein429]

Albie,

Spent 20+ years on active duty, retired, went to airline job, furloughed and recalled to active duty right after furlough. Spent the past 2+ years in the staff world (5th Air Force @ Yokota and now an acquisition job). Do I miss flying? Yes! Enough to endure another herniated disk in my neck (I've had three surgeries already)? NO!!! I could use a good Low Angle Strafe pass from time to time but alas, that is gone as well -- too bad!

I say take the non-flying job if it offers promotion potential; gotta think about retirement bennies! I've had several IMAs work for me; some have even taken Extended Active Duty orders and have gotten promoted and or reached active duty retirement. Take the plunge!

Cheers
Stein

 

[ExAF]

Albie,
I'll toss in my 2 cents. I did 20 years active and only 15 mos non-flying. The first 2 months of the non-flying staff job wasn't bad, then the novelty wore off and reality hit me in the face. I hated the next 13 months. As is usually the case in the military, the people were great, but the monotony of a staff job sucked after flying for a living. At the end of 20, I retired and did the airline gig. Since I had done nothing but fly for a living, I couldn't really find anything else I wanted to do. It was great until furlough struck. Forced to find something else to do made me settle and again it was OK for a while. After about 6 months, I really missed flying again. Fortunately I was recalled after 2 years and enjoy flying for a living again. Unfortunately, am expecting another furlough in the not too distant future and will be forced to settle again. Now that is a lot of background for the following opinion, but here goes. Obviously you have to do what is best for you and your family first. I always put my family before my job now. For me, I was happiest when I was flying. For those that truly love flying, a non-flying job will NEVER measure up; whether it is flying fighters, people haulers or box haulers. Since you are flying the jurrasic jet in your paying job, you won't have to do without flying. In that case, the non-flying job could be fine for a part time military gig as long as you feel it is a job worth doing and provides you some benefit. Mil retirement is a great benny that won't end up getting dumped in a corporate banckruptcy. The non-flying gig may also give you some new connections and skills that would serve you well if you ever have to give up your day job on the jurrasic jet. So I guess my advice would be to fly as long as you can look the 40 year old in the face and say "I can still hack it." If you get to the point where is just isn't worth it any more, you'll know it. If you have reached that point, take the non-flying gig and continue to work with the great people that continue to serve. I miss the people of the AF, but not the institution. I would love to take a fighter out for a spin again, but I'm content to move on and leave it to the younger generation for a daily occupation. Good luck with your decision. Cheers...ExAF

 

[rockr]

Life after Yanking & Spanking, er Banking I mean

Finally got certified to post!

Did the same, left after an all flying career, at first did not think it would be such a good deal going from a flying job to an IMA job (paid).

First, why stay in a flying unit and have to do all that sucking rubber stuff and weekends when you can be an IMA and then really enjoy things? Besides you can also become an IMA and still affiliate with your old unit, in other words do your duty from there and avoid the rubber sucking scenes. Also depending on your IMA job you can telecommute (see telecommute reg-AFI), do your staff stuff/project from home or on the road and then really enjoy your additional time. Check out IMA jobs listed in ARPC web site,plus there are more special tours 30/90/180 , e.g. Pentagon, Germany, HQ ACC, for IMAs, Res, ANGs.

What you will miss? The flying, and all the ops social scene, flying, "dancing bears" in the pilot bar, flying, etc. Still, you will be amazed at just how busy you were flying missions and filling squares, and how much a committment it has all been, certainly there will be squares to fill on the IMA side, but they usally get those all done on a two day conference. Of course dealing with the "other Air Force" as in non-flying community===yes, bring Capt Morgan, but there are such little requirements e.g. 12 days of AT and 12 UTAs

As for promotion if you've got your PME done should be pretty easy, since IMAs do not count against a selecting official's DP qouta, the challenge then becomes whether you really want to stay in that long to lock in promotion, as for me, I didn't want to do three more years to lock in promotion, so I've just retired and am loving it. Believe me it was not that easy to retire, not because of the money-- at the end I had as many man days I could use---a way of life after twenty years is not something one can easily walk away from, in the end, it simply felt like it was time to move on, of course my tolerance for queep, and standard mandatory ancillary stuff e.g. suicide prevention tng, had severly eroded. While there were many more exciting opportunities to pursue had I stayed in, for me it was a case of taking those talents and using them to directly enhance my efforts elsewhere.

Best of luck with your decision.

 

[Vingus]

Nice post!


I have been out over a year now with 14 yrs AD under my belt. I have a flying job now, so I'm not needing to "build hours" but would like the retirement check.

How do I go about the reserve / guard thing? Do I need to see a recruiter?

Looking for advice.

 

[YGBSM]

Nice post!


I have been out over a year now with 14 yrs AD under my belt. I have a flying job now, so I'm not needing to "build hours" but would like the retirement check.

How do I go about the reserve / guard thing? Do I need to see a recruiter?

Looking for advice.

Get ready for the biggest administrative nightmare of your young life. A break in service has the same effect on getting your medical/aeronautical orders recertified as a case of genital warts has on getting laid.

 

[Vingus]

Get ready for the biggest administrative nightmare of your young life. A break in service has the same effect on getting your medical/aeronautical orders recertified as a case of genital warts has on getting laid.

Looking for something more specific, thanks.

 

[YGBSM]

OK. Like what?

"How do I go about the Guard and Reserve thing" doesn't really inspire specifics.

 

[Vingus]

OK. Like what?

"How do I go about the Guard and Reserve thing" doesn't really inspire specifics.

You apparently are not easily inspired. HoHum.

 

[YGBSM]

Best of luck with your spoon feeding.

 

[GasPasser]

Glad to help

Looking for something more specific, thanks.

Let me be the first to say welcome to the guard, the best military flying job to be had! Go to www.baseops.net Click on aviation jobs, top and center. There are plenty of -135 units out there and not enough prior service -135 guys getting out to fill our vacancies. Even if the closest unit to you is not advertising for pilots, apply anyway.

Good luck to you brother!

 

[Vingus]

Best of luck with your spoon feeding.

You are truly an A$$.

 

[YGBSM]

You are truly an A$$.

Thanks!

I was being serious about the break in service. Ask anyone.
Happened to me, and took almost 2 years from date of swear-in to the start date of my T-course.
If you mention what kind of job you're looking for, someone else might be able to steer you in the right direction. I wouldn't talk to the recruiters, I'd talk to the DO.
That specific enough for you?

 

[Vingus]

I am more interested in a non-flying gig to end my 20. I don't really want the long spool-up time of requal for a flying job and I'm not interested in being put on AEF.

I live in the NYC area and would be interested in anything here near the coast.

I even looked on the FedJobs website, thinking that I my mil service would transfer, but those jobs looked crappy.

So being that I'm not interested in a flying job, there is no DO to talk to. Who would hold the bag on the rest of the cats and dogs jobs?

Just fishing.

 

[rockr]

Das IMA Program

First, its not your old IMA program anymore in that it is changing from the quiet backwater it once was, specifically, you may or may not be on an AEF roster; given the numerous deployments, nothing is sacred, because you can still be activated and sent to wherever the AF wants, as to the probability of that happening, well the last time I talked with the IMA people Jan 2005, they said very few IMAs in fact had been activated involuntarily, in that there are many people who are willing to volunteer. However, changes were afoot as I retired this summer and most of the activations up to that point in time were in critical fields like weather, security-- not pilots.

In your case, where you have been out, simply go to the ARPC website, they have numbers for you to call, or do a search, note a "BIMAA" is a person who works at a specific base managing IMAs, (see Hill AFB they have a smattering of IMA jobs listed). Also you can live and do your job elsewhere, in fact there were no slots at my base, but I was put in touch with the senior IMA officer for my base and he informed that there were in fact slots at my base, they were just on paper managed from the parent command. Failing that, simply call the AF Reserve recruiter and tell them you want to apply for an IMA slot, which are available on the web to view, listed by AFSC, rank, locale, etc--but paradoxically, you have to already be on duty in some form to access the system, but AFRES ARPC people might have since changed that feature.

As to actually going into a flying unit after being dormant for some time, it might have been problematic for some, but I've seen it happen in 90 days for an individual who hadn't flown in 3 years, however, if you're lacking in social skills with the people that actually do the paperwork drill, then I can see why it might practically take an act of god to make things happen, best of luck!

 

[CWGrizwald]

Life with AV Gas

Albie,
As you know, I just retired, flew my last Mudhen sortie over a year ago and had two other non-flying jobs in 20 years. My guess is you are now at the point where when you see a perfectly flown 4 ship up initial, everything in your mind stops as you count off the seconds between pitchout and laugh when 4 goes 1 second early. Been there three times now, only this time there won't be another chance to do it again. The desire to do it again will never go away. There is no question that non-flying jobs can be a lot of butt-pain, however, lots of considerations. What will pulling Gs for several more years do to help your back survive flying cargo, which is what really pays for kids to go to college (and weddings--three if I'm not mistaken). On the other hand, hanging around those who aren't like us can drive a person to climb a clock tower with a deer rifle. Then there is the student who almost hits you on a heat to guns because he's buried his cranium in the scope looking for what he is about to hit.... yikes! Anyway, I got tired of not flying so am two rides into getting my private single engine land. What a BLAST! Did you know those things on the floor have another purpose besides steering, brakes and slow speed BFM? Can't wait to get checked out so I can take my kids up. Anyway, good luck with your medical, and the big decision. PM me if you want to hear shoe clerk horror stories.
Prost!
Griz

 

[stonewall]

Hey Albie,

Tough decision. I'm not sure how you've been juggling 3 yobs, anyway. I wouldn't look at this as an ending, but as a new opportunity to enjoy your life more. Yes, flying fighters is huge part of your life. Mine, too. However, you always new it couldn't last forever. We all do. At some point, the Man is going to give you a sign that it's time to move on, and this may be it. You can still serve your country (which is the most important aspect of our Guard/Reserve gig), and it will free up some time to devote to your other bidness and your family.

It's not easy, but it really is win/win. Keep flying F-15s? Win. Stop and spend more time with your family and EmeraldCoast? Win. Thanks for flying as long as you did! Good luck, and see ya around the AOC.

 

[CCDiscoB]

Tough One...

...Getting to 20 can be an elusive target. The light at the never ending tunnel. Guys crawling to the finish line doing Academy Liaison Jobs, points only jobs, etc, etc. The last few years seem the hardest.
My thoughts, fly. When I was cranium safety, I thought I was either going to poke my eyes out, or that my brains would melt. I couldn't stand sitting "up there" writing queepy plans. Guys would come into my office and I'd have pencils up my nose, I couldn't stand it, and that was a flying job. I did find this web site however.
One thing I've accepted, you don't have to be the wing/squadron top IP, that requires too much time. Let the young guys do that. I go in, help were I can, and leave, otherwise the family suffers. Especially considering our other jobs. While 3-1 changes, it doesn't change that much (except for Shot and Kill).
You'll miss the AFTPs.

 

[psysicx]

Albie what unit are you in? Does Eglin have a reserve unit?

 

[stonewall]

...Getting to 20 can be an elusive target. The light at the never ending tunnel. Guys crawling to the finish line doing Academy Liaison Jobs, points only jobs, etc, etc. The last few years seem the hardest.
My thoughts, fly. When I was cranium safety, I thought I was either going to poke my eyes out, or that my brains would melt. I couldn't stand sitting "up there" writing queepy plans. Guys would come into my office and I'd have pencils up my nose, I couldn't stand it, and that was a flying job. I did find this web site however.
One thing I've accepted, you don't have to be the wing/squadron top IP, that requires too much time. Let the young guys do that. I go in, help were I can, and leave, otherwise the family suffers. Especially considering our other jobs. While 3-1 changes, it doesn't change that much (except for Shot and Kill).
You'll miss the AFTPs.

While I have a long way to go yet, I think it'd be great to be "just a wingman" again! Of course, I'd be the best wingman on the planet, but that's just me....

 

[ExAF]

Update?

So Albie...now that you've been edumacated, what cha gonna do?:beer: