Flying, or digging ditches?

[cobolt]

I am a very keen supporter of aviation and have a profound interest and love for the industry but I have a concern that just blows my mind. Flying planes in my opinion is supposed to be a HIGH class job (white collar professional) for which in many cases, a degree and very intense training and abilities are required. Why does the compensation and respect given not reflect in accordance with the training and financial investment made? Here is my concern. You can get a job that requires little to no education in an industry that is considered LOW class (blue collar) but you are treated with more respect and paid much more. Given the responsibility and everything else that goes along with flying a high dollar airplane full of people or freight, you should think it ought to be worth more than what we (trained and educated)get.
It almost comes down to doing what you love for almost nothing, or you have to trade what you love for something you don’t like so that you can make a living. How do you bridge this gap? Is it possible to change the mentality in the industry and if so, how do we as aviators do that?

 

[westwind]

Judge Smails was right!

"The world needs ditch diggers, too." Don't let everyone in on the secret, but it ain't that bad of a job. The pay is not bad. It pays for my house, a couple of kids, My wife works but probably doesn't have to, a huge 401k, a few toys and a little money left over for flying. Heck, I could probably pay cash for a good Tri Pacer or even a 172 and probably will, before long. Home every night, in the summers I work 4 days a week and get 7 weeks (or is it 8 weeks. Who can keep track?) of paid vacation every year. Great boss, great equipment, INCREDIBLE working environment. I wouldn't trade my office window for anyone. One thing is for sure. I won't be adding to the competition for a seat in one of those shiny jets. You can have that all to yourselves. I want no part of it. Do I have it better than most ditch diggers? Better than some, maybe most, not as good as others. One thing is certain, I am good at my job (and there IS a little bit of thinking involved in it) and I don't take what I have for granted.

It almost comes down to doing what you love for almost nothing, or you have to trade what you love for something you don’t like so that you can make a living.

It's all about attitude. There are ditch diggers that love their job and shiny jet captains that hate theirs, and everything in between. I prefer to enjoy what I do and look fondly at what my job provides both myself and others. Here is my latest ditch.
http://http://breckenridge.snow.com/
Not too shabby. I even got to fly over my little ditch a few times this summer .

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Pilots can quit whoring themselves out. Companies know they can get some idiot to fly a corporate jet for chickenfeed.

 

[ChrisNNJ27]

I am a very keen supporter of aviation and have a profound interest and love for the industry but I have a concern that just blows my mind. Flying planes in my opinion is supposed to be a HIGH class job (white collar professional) for which in many cases, a degree and very intense training and abilities are required. Why does the compensation and respect given not reflect in accordance with the training and financial investment made? Here is my concern. You can get a job that requires little to no education in an industry that is considered LOW class (blue collar) but you are treated with more respect and paid much more. Given the responsibility and everything else that goes along with flying a high dollar airplane full of people or freight, you should think it ought to be worth more than what we (trained and educated)get.
It almost comes down to doing what you love for almost nothing, or you have to trade what you love for something you don’t like so that you can make a living. How do you bridge this gap? Is it possible to change the mentality in the industry and if so, how do we as aviators do that?

Stop taking it in the back door from management and demand they take as many wage and benefit concessions that the pilots,FA's, MX do.... I know that is easier said than done but as long as their are enough trust fund babies out there to fill pilot seats for less than repectable wages then I guess people who want to make a living flying airplanes need not apply.....

 

[cub46yc]

I agree with cobolt. If I had put this much time and education into a different career it would probably be paying a lot more by now. To bad I love to fly so much!!!

P.S. Why do you think a degree is so important to the operation of an aircraft? Does it make you a better pilot or is it just an accomplishment thing.

 

[GoingHot]

Given the responsibility and everything else that goes along with flying a high dollar airplane full of people or freight, you should think it ought to be worth more than what we (trained and educated)get.

In a Capitalist Society, there are a few firm rules, and "SUPPLY and DEMAND" is number one on the list.

Right now, there is a huge supply of airplane drivers out there on the fruited plains, with more being produced every day. At the same time, the demand for people to fill 777 seats is very low. Even at the low end (RJ), each employer has an endless stack of resumes that meet their rock bottom standards. If the standards were raised to double what they are now, they would still have an endless stack. But there is no incentive to raise hiring standards. Except for the occasional "41-it Dudes", low time pilots are not crashing airplanes.

 

[TransMach]

Digging Ditches

I dug a lot of ditches. In fact, I dug ditches for 25+ years until the market conditions were right, my qualification package was right and the opportunities were right. Now I'm making the same 6 figure+ bucks flying as I was digging ditches. You see, I never sold my abilities and assets short just to be "a pilot".

Now, my ditch digging was in on the airport and the ditches I dug were in aviation and supported aviation but I was clearly, in my mind's eye, digging ditches and building my qualifications/resume while making a good living.

When I got out of the military nearly 30 years ago there were not very many "good" aviation jobs to be had. The regional airlines (called commuters then) paid less than squat. There were very few corporate/charter jobs in "big" airplanes that were liveable and paid well and for those that were around you needed to be completely qualified (type/recent school/intl experience in a GII/III, know some one on the inside and a space shuttle landing didn't hurt). The chance at a "Major Airline Job" was out of the picture with a ditch digger's background, so, I started digging ditches professionally.

I made good money digging ditches and I dug some very fine ditches. Many of the ditches that I dug are still apparent on the airports where I toiled. Many have been erroded by the market and the passing of time. Occasionally, I had to throw someone in a freshly dug ditch and cover them up, but that was for the good of all concerned, except maybe the guy in the ditch. I'm still proud of the good ditches that I dug, though.

When I started ditch digging, I didn't know where it would lead me or if I would ever be able to go back to just flying. I knew one thing for certain, however. I would rather be a ditch digger, albeit on an airport, than prostitute myself, sell myself short or discount my value just to be an airplane pilot.

I was lucky, no doubt. My ditch digging paid off and I ended up just where I wanted to be. The first 10,000 hours of flight time built over 30 years and in between ditches was hard to come by, I'm thinking the next 10,000-15,000 hours will all be a joy and I'm looking forward to them now that my ditch digging days are behind me.

It is very sad that there aren't more people willing to dig a ditch than prostitue their skills. If there were more ditch diggers, we would all make a better living.

Fair winds,

TransMach

P.S. (edit) You don't need a shovel to dig a ditch. You can do it in an office, do it with a computer, do it on the sales floor, do it in a factory or a school or working for the government. Ofcourse, you can do it the old fashion way, with a shovel.

 

[MauleSkinner]

It is very sad that there aren't more people willing to dig a ditch than prostitue their skills. If there were more ditch diggers, we would all make a better living.

Except maybe the ditch diggers

Fly (and dig) safe!

David

 

[SpatialD]

Well said, TransMach.

It was just last week that I told my boss that I'm looking for another job, and that I'd be giving my official notice in the near future (hopefully). He was very unhappy that I didn't have a stronger sense of loyalty to him and the company and seemed to think I was being unreasonable for not being willing to work my arse off and still have to send my wife to the grocery store with food stamps. He assured me that I wasn't going to make any more money elsewhere, to which I said these words: "Well, if I can't get what I need in the aviation biz I'll just have to go dig ditches instead." From what I'm seeing on this thread, that might be a better idea than I thought. Unfortunately, the truth is I don't really have any significant qualifications outside of aviation.

Anyway, I'm trying to do my part - maybe he will pay my replacement a little better... yeah, right.

 

[mar]

This is the point of it all.

The first 10,000 hours of flight time built over 30 years and in between ditches was hard to come by, I'm thinking the next 10,000-15,000 hours will all be a joy and I'm looking forward to them now that my ditch digging days are behind me.

Hey all. I don't normally frequent this forum but this thread was pointed out to me by someone else.

I understand the frustration, believe me. I earned the college degree, paid beaucoup bucks for flying lessons and worked my skinny butt off in Alaska scraping ice off the wings, loading and unloading....etc, etc...

It's hard work.

But that's the point: It's all about being an adult and having some perspective. Realizing, like TransMach, that there will be a first 10,000 hours and then a second chapter.

When you're young and first starting out it's like a baptism of Fire!

But as my Dad used to say, you know, just before he'd kick the crap out of me: "Suffering builds character!"

I've flown with the ditch diggers and I've flown with the pretty boy prima donnas who lucked into a cushy job.

I'll take the ditch digger any day.
Good luck.

 

[FlyinTim]

From a low time 20 year old cfi....

Thank you. Made me smile..

 

[BOZO]

Transmach and mar....well spoken. Now back to my ditch...

 

[spitfire1940]

I agree with the others.

What it comes down to is this: for many of us, aviation is a great second job. It can take a long time to provide enough to be the only job.

It would be nice if they paid me more, but it is what it is. I do it because I like it and because I've done other things I don't like. At some point, there will be a payoff.

 

[NW_Pilot]

Pilots can quit whoring themselves out. Companies know they can get some idiot to fly a corporate jet for chickenfeed.

I Don't know what kind of whores you know but the ones I know imp:make a hell of a lot more than most pilots.:beer:

 

[climbhappy]

nice oratory all the way to the last question.

Question: Is it possible to change the mentality in the industry, and how do we as pilots do that?

It is nonsense.

Pilots cannot change an economic reality by their will. They do not finance the purchase of the assets. They do not set the price for the service. It is ludicrous to suggest that pilots can determine their fate. The answer is NO.

Someone once said, " Your compensation in life is directly tied to the level of difficulty of the problem you solve while performing your vocation.

What amazes me is that the airlines recognized in the late 80's that pilots were whores and would pay 10,000 for an interview. Once that it was obvious, and today it has morphed into pay for training, owners saw an endless pipeline of supply for these so called "whores" to sit in their high speed tubes and fly off into the sunset making on average 8 to ten bucks an hour factoring in duty time.

 

[BizPilot]

Consider These Options

I don't want to bore you all with "my story". But I want to share it with you to let you know there is a lot of happiness in aviation out there other than just flying planes. First, though, My story so you understand:
I graduated from UND in 1996. Took my 1st CFI job making $16,000 a year. All after earning a 4-year degree and certificates. After 6 months, I decided to CFI elsewhere, hoping for more money. Moved to a new location only to make $16,000 a year after being told I would have more students. So I supplemented my income with credit cards. Built up a debt of $6000.00. Got a job at Home Depot to supplement my CFI income and to pay off my debts. Worked 50 to 60 work weeks (including weekends). After 1 year earned my 1st part 135 job flying air freight. Starting pay was $14,500 a year - to fly/manage a C402B at an outstation base. Working hours were 8pm to 2am, break, and 5am to 6am. 4 days a week. Did this for 6 months flying through thunderstorms, moderate icing, and in 1970's equipment with nightly equipment failures (I'm not complaining....just telling you how it was...and I wouldn't take back the experience...it was all worth it....glad I did it for those who want to start bashing me....this is the reality of the career building process). Landed my first break with Co-Ex flying ATR-42's/72's in the late 1990's. Launched off to Houston for training. Starting pay at the time was about $17,000 a year, right seat, flying 48 and 68 passenger prop's around the southern states. Slept in a crashpad - 2 bedroom apartment, shared with 5 other pilots. A couch, 13 inch TV with rabbit ears, and air mattresses scattered throughout. Did this for 1 year (11 months). Heard about a Part 135 charter job in the Midwest from a buddy. Decided to "take a step back" in order to make-a-living. It was an instant $12,000 a year pay increase. Flew twin Cessna's around the Midwest for 2 years at $29,000 a year......(after 8 years, finally broke the $20,000 a year mark). I was very happy. No I wasn't doing what I wanted for "my aviation dream", but I was home nearly every night in my own bed. Bought my 1st house and saw my wife nearly every day who miraculously had stayed with me during all this time (since I left UND). Then the day hit we all dread to hear - 9/11. Three of us were let go from the 135 outfit within the next 6 months. I sent resumes out for the next 6 months with no avail. I was depressed. Took a job working for a local electronics company as an assembler. Starting pay was $30,000 a year, full 401k match, ESOP plan, 3 weeks vacation starting out, 4 day work weeks (day shift). I did this for the next three years. But I became depressed like most of you would - I fully understand the "love of aviation." All I could do was dream about flying planes as I snapped computer parts together. I began to explore "Other" jobs in aviaiton. Doing internet searches I found a ton of non-flying aviation jobs that paid good money.
There are tons of non-flying opportunities for Pilots out there in aviation, with good pay. NOBODY should be complaining about the aviation industry. You just need to seek it out a bit. For example - Cirrus Design in Duluth, all kinds of jobs. Also, there are nearly 25 VLJ (very light jet) manufacturers that are firing-up assembly lines looking for business professionals in Marketing, Finance, Demo-Pilots, Test Pilots, Contract Administration, etc. that all pay in excess of $30K a year starting (usually with full benefits too). Then there are companies like Honeywell, Allied Signal, Rockwell Collins, Boeing, Cessna, Gulfstream, Bombardier, etc. They are all looking for people with aviation backgrounds. I landed a job with one of the above last year. I have been told by my co-workers countless times how lucky I am to have previous aviation experience as a Pilot. They look up to me for my advice, and techncial perspective on a regular basis. It couldn't be more satisfying knowing the 'crappy' 10 years I had as a Pilot are now truely paying off in a professional career.
And what about the flying?? Well my company has a flying club (and most of the above do if you look into it). I have the choice to fly three aircraft at my discretion at reduced rental rates. My wife and I fly TOGETHER at least on a weekly basis now. Out to eat at fancy restaurants, we go to concerts in large cities, and visit friends and family scattered all over the country. I am working a career that I love - AVIATION. My pay is in excess of $50K (Starting Sal.). I live in a home much larger than I ever dreamed. I get to log 3 or 4 hours a flight time a week on my own time. My wife doesn't have to work full-time anymore. She gets to see me everyday.
So don't be let down by Pilot Pay! Get out there and search a bit. There are tons of gratifying jobs in aviation where you can be "around airplanes" all day long and be paid good money for your "background".
If you need more help - PM me and I will assist you with all kinds of resources. Life couldn't be better right now......and I know my company is looking for 7,000 additional workers over the next 3 years. Good luck and FLY SAFE!

 

[TransMach]

Diggin' Ditches

You, sir, are a better "Ditch Digger" than most. Congratulations!

TransMach