Flying Blind: Deregulation reconsidered

[olympus593]

How would you lower costs while increasing wages and reducing productivity?

Please stop feeding this f ing troll!

 

[Flopgut]

How would you lower costs while increasing wages and reducing productivity?

We're not going to do anything for free, first of all. Basically, imagine there was only one B737 training program and operators didn't have to run individual programs? Airline training costs could be trimmed significantly. And then on top of that we could do contract training. In the very near term, training would be better, cheaper, and more standard. We could win over manufactures and oversight easily IMHO.

 

[pilotyip]

Good idea, a lot of smaller airlines do contract training. However there seems to be a cost advantage when you reach a certain size to bring training in house.

 

[AC560]

We're not going to do anything for free, first of all. Basically, imagine there was only one B737 training program and operators didn't have to run individual programs? Airline training costs could be trimmed significantly. And then on top of that we could do contract training. In the very near term, training would be better, cheaper, and more standard. We could win over manufactures and oversight easily IMHO.

Isn't that called FlightSafety?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Guys... saying ALPA should control the supply of pilots is radical....

But lets say there is a pragmatic vision....

You've got to lay out how ALPA or an organization is going to gain control of a free market fundamental: supply.

Don't just say "ALPA should do this... or when ALPA does that..." You've got to lay out specifics...

In addition, doesn't this fly in the face of free enterprise?

 

[pilotyip]

Rez?

Guys... saying ALPA should control the supply of pilots is radical....?

Is this you Rez, or did you leave a public computer while still logged in? A real dose of reality, unusual from you.

 

[olympus593]

In addition, doesn't this fly in the face of free enterprise?

Free enterprise works for a lot of things but for the airline industry it's been a disaster for everybody but the trash that fly to orlando for 29$ round trip, nuff said.

 

[igneousy2]

Guys... saying ALPA should control the supply of pilots is radical....

But lets say there is a pragmatic vision....

You've got to lay out how ALPA or an organization is going to gain control of a free market fundamental: supply.

Don't just say "ALPA should do this... or when ALPA does that..." You've got to lay out specifics...

In addition, doesn't this fly in the face of free enterprise?

Okay you want specifics...because you asked...

1. Everybody needs to stop thinking like "pilotyip" and we have to call out anyone among us who does. This whole thing about hurting people's feelings is getting us nowhere. Defending this profesion needs to be ALPA's number one priority. If a few panties get twisted along the way so be it. So what if we are saying that half the current airline pilots aren't qualified to do there job.

As far as worrying about the airlines having enough pilots...damn it THATS THE F-in point. What is most clear right now is that the number of pilots available does not determine the amount of air travel. If an airline needs 500 pilots and they can't get them by offering $20,000 a year...well guess what? I guess they just might have to offer $25k or heaven forbid $30k a year. Wages keep increasing until they fill there 500 positions. Fly-by-night operators can't count on hiring a whole bunch of guys for nothing with the promise of something years from now.

2. We need to start a PR campaign that makes it clear to everybody that we are the ONLY ones in the aviation industry that truly give a damn about safety because OUR as*es are the only ones that are on the line to.

3. We need to train an army of properly trained pilots to be part of an army of spokespersons for ALPA. When we have an opportunity like the Colgan accident or the Sully incident we need to have OUR people, giving OUR message from first thing Sunday with Meet the Press to the Friday edition of Nightline.

4. We need to have a reporting system to document "SAVES". There needs to be a stream of press releases from ALPA every time we handle a light and NOTHING happens which is EVERY day. It also will give the Army created in 3 above a reason to be called into the news room. Our message needs to be FLYING is ONLY safe because of the properly trained and experienced crews.

5. We need to have SPECIFIC solutions to the current days problems. Can anybody tell me what ALPA's position is on fatigue beyond "it needs to be fixed." Can anybody tell me what ALPA's position is on what an airlines pilot qualifications should be or what a proper pilot training program should look like beyond "it's inadequate."

We need specifics...Here is the exact language that we want the regulations to be changed to...no more than X hours on duty...no more than X hours on duty if our duty crosses a WOCL...the window of WOCL is between X:00 hours and X:00 hours...all backed up by science of course...

A properly qualified airline pilot...has an ATP....has X,000 hours...has X years of 91/military flying experience...was trained at an ACCREDITED FLIGHT SCHOOL....all backed up by the proper studies in simulators.

An ACCREDITED FLIGHT SCHOOL requires X years with X semester hours, before you can even get into this school you must have X years college, x years work experience, etc. etc. etc....you guessed it...studies studies studies.

If we have SPECIFICS it is impossible for the enemy of safety...the ATA...to have reasonable defenses to this except it will cost more money, which makes us look better.

6. Once we have 5 in place and established...when Buffalo happens again, and we are called to testify before congress...we can say "see Mr. Congressman we knew this was going to happen...let's enact these SPECIFIC things into law today...oh look what we have written up already in our brief case...Let's pass this into law so that way we can prevent this from happening again."

Because we don't have specifics this is what ALPA has to release...

“The FAA’s aggressive timeline and commitment to alleviating pilot fatigue is welcome news for airline pilots across the country,” said Capt. John Prater, ALPA’s president. “ALPA stands ready to work with the airlines and the regulators to create the innovative solutions we need to make a safe industry even safer.”


Work WITH the airlines....NO! the message needs to be...we've been warning all of you for YEARS about this...now people are dead...now you are going to implement what we have been advocating for years based on science...here's the rule...sign here...there is NOTHING to discuss...because there is NOTHING INNOVATIVE about sleep, humans have been doing it since we first scurried out of the ocean.


Anyway...I rant.


Later

 

[acpilot]

Okay you want specifics...because you asked...

1. Everybody needs to stop thinking like "pilotyip" and we have to call out anyone among us who does. This whole thing about hurting people's feelings is getting us nowhere. Defending this profesion needs to be ALPA's number one priority. If a few panties get twisted along the way so be it. So what if we are saying that half the current airline pilots aren't qualified to do there job.

ALPA's primary priority is to generate revenue.

As far as worrying about the airlines having enough pilots...damn it THATS THE F-in point. What is most clear right now is that the number of pilots available does not determine the amount of air travel. If an airline needs 500 pilots and they can't get them by offering $20,000 a year...well guess what? I guess they just might have to offer $25k or heaven forbid $30k a year. Wages keep increasing until they fill there 500 positions. Fly-by-night operators can't count on hiring a whole bunch of guys for nothing with the promise of something years from now.

Yes...fewer pilots is the only real solution to this problem. Artifically inflating the price for labor is not.

2. We need to start a PR campaign that makes it clear to everybody that we are the ONLY ones in the aviation industry that truly give a damn about safety because OUR as*es are the only ones that are on the line to.

That would be nice. Do you think ALPA will shell out the dough to help you there? Do you think the campaign should include 91 and 135?

3. We need to train an army of properly trained pilots to be part of an army of spokespersons for ALPA. When we have an opportunity like the Colgan accident or the Sully incident we need to have OUR people, giving OUR message from first thing Sunday with Meet the Press to the Friday edition of Nightline.

Interesting.

4. We need to have a reporting system to document "SAVES". There needs to be a stream of press releases from ALPA every time we handle a light and NOTHING happens which is EVERY day. It also will give the Army created in 3 above a reason to be called into the news room. Our message needs to be FLYING is ONLY safe because of the properly trained and experienced crews.

That will scare the crap out of the flying public. They think everything works perfectly all the time. Why would you want to broadcast that airliners have problems on a daily basis?

The FAA will love that though! A daily supply of reports made available to the public. I smell enforcement action!

A properly qualified airline pilot...has an ATP....has X,000 hours...has X years of 91/military flying experience...was trained at an ACCREDITED FLIGHT SCHOOL....all backed up by the proper studies in simulators.

REALLY? What about pt61 trained pilots? What about the competent 1500hr ATPs?

I'm with yip on the aptitude test idea. In fact, just about everything yip has said it on track. 30 on ACTs or 1300 on SATs. Sounds great to me! Flying is the easy part.

An ACCREDITED FLIGHT SCHOOL requires X years with X semester hours, before you can even get into this school you must have X years college, x years work experience, etc. etc. etc....you guessed it...studies studies studies.

This will drive costs up. There are already students graduating with $100K in loans...what makes you think that the "accredited" school will change anything. It sounds great, but in the end, the $29 fare will win every time.

 

[pilotyip]

This would hurt a lot of pilots

I'm with yip on the aptitude test idea. In fact, just about everything yip has said it on track. 30 on ACTs or 1300 on SATs. Sounds great to me! Flying is the easy part.

If this was made the standard about 95% of the pilots flying, myself included would be out of a job. I only wrote a 29 and 1280, 50 years ago. BTW in the end the consumer will determine how much airline pilots are paid. If regulation raises prices, there will be fewer riders that will result in fewer pilots. All that being said it is still a great job, and puts you in the upper end of income earners in the US.