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ACTUALLY,
For those speaking of Go-Go beating unemployment-
It actually doesn't. I was on unemployment after my ACA/FLYI furlough and DID IN FACT make more money than a first year GO-JET FO. So, I mean, really, not much else to say about that.
Ok, just wanted to throw that out there.
Happy Holidays.
-DK
For those speaking of Go-Go beating unemployment-
It actually doesn't. I was on unemployment after my ACA/FLYI furlough and DID IN FACT make more money than a first year GO-JET FO. So, I mean, really, not much else to say about that.
Ok, just wanted to throw that out there.
Happy Holidays.
-DK
Dewey Oxberger
Any questions?
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2004
- Posts
- 286
Hawkdrvr,
Looks like Flyboy beat me to the punch. I don't believe anyone left at IDE is on less than a 6 year pay scale, and I'm sure unemployment will be better than $22/hr with no overs. By the way, if a company is on strike, are you advocating that furloughed pilots go work there? GJ scumbags are not literally scabs, but what they are doing is equally reprehensible. What about Netjets or Citationshares? Any regional 6 yr FO will get a pay raise on day 1 of new hire class and not be selling out the profession in the process!
Looks like Flyboy beat me to the punch. I don't believe anyone left at IDE is on less than a 6 year pay scale, and I'm sure unemployment will be better than $22/hr with no overs. By the way, if a company is on strike, are you advocating that furloughed pilots go work there? GJ scumbags are not literally scabs, but what they are doing is equally reprehensible. What about Netjets or Citationshares? Any regional 6 yr FO will get a pay raise on day 1 of new hire class and not be selling out the profession in the process!
blueridge71
Outlasted two companies
- Joined
- Nov 30, 2003
- Posts
- 2,261
Marko Ramius
Vilnius Nastavnic
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 378
ACA's real problems started when...
Their management overstepped their bounds in early 2002 by taking a hefty rate hike from UAL. To be clear, they were completely within their rights to do so via their contract, however UA management asked for a break considering the circumstances at the time. I believe ACA was the only carrier to take the increase, SkyWest and AirWis both stayed pretty much flat on their rates. If you remember this caused a big runup in ACA's stock price and hiring amid speculation that ACA was going to receive the lion's share of any additional flying in the UAX system due to the economic downturn. ACA management believed it was a shrewd move because they felt that they could capatilize revenue wise on UA downgauging a/c in the downturn which would give them more money when the recovery occurred and UA took some of the flights back to mainline. All the analysts agreed, except one(I don't think it was Boyd this time!), who said the strategy was only solid if UA was able to whether the storm and stay out of BK. Under that scenario, UA would have had to honor it's contract and ACA would have made serious cash. Any other scenario(BK/ATSB loan restrictions,etc) gave UA the opportunity to exact a measure of revenge. At the time, UA interim CEO Jack Creighton said as much internally to the employees about the ACA deal. His comments boiled down to 'We're very dissapointed with their decision, but we don't have a choice here; we need them right now and they have a valid contract with us, however we do intend to rectify the situation going forward." The comments from the guy running the UAX brand(Sean Donahue?) pretty much echoed the same sentiment.
With that setting the stage, is it any wonder the route UA took with ACA after BK? They were tough with everybody, but clearly harder on ACA then their other partners and the BK process made it legal. Management at every airline basically makes it clear that they run the show, you just work here. IMO, this is one of the situations where the ACA/Indy employees should have remembered that. Somewhere in the big RJ expansion phase of the late nineties/early 2000's, people stopped being commuter pilots and started being regional pilots. They flew RJ's now, not unsophisticated airplanes like Jetrstreams, 1900's, ATR's or Brasilia's that they all would have killed to fly two years prior. They flew too exotic second tier Mexican destinations and at off peak times on primarily mainline equipped routes while boasting of being 'all-jet'. A few of the companies attained DOT major status based on the revenues involved. This was all great, and definately something that should have promoted heavily during the numerous contact pushes during that time. Funny how you don't hear much of that these days. Problem was, we were still 'just' commuter pilots, only by the early 2000's most of us were too cool to accept that notion.
Management cares not for jobs, only profitibility and shareholder value. Shifting from economical, less capital intensive turboprops on routes that will never be touched by a major to less economical, capital intensive RJ's on routes that definately needed to be supported by mainline marketing and fee per departure agreements, was simply a matter of increasing profit margin and shareholder value to them. Never mind the fact, that it married their fortunes closely to those of the parent carrier, and effectively closed off the previous revenue streams because the equipment was no longer operated, the slots had been given to RJ's, and there was no where to park the equipment anymore anyway. From the line all the way up to the offices in Herndon, we missed this so when it came time to clean up managements mistakes we simply got mad at bad ol' United/UsAirways/NWA/AMR/DAL, etc. The paycuts ACA/Indy took, the effort to ward off Mesa, were all great employee efforts but they were basically the end game of internal managerial errors with UA and YV cast as the bad guys vs. ACA management. To most pilots 'just commuter pilots,' basically represents the opinions of arogant mainline pilots who either forgot where they came from or were ex-military and thought they were better. As far as the cockpit goes, those connotations have some validity. As far as the business goes though, it means what portion of the industry you work in and should have governed how you went about things as far as contracts, etc go-i.e. look out for your(pilots) interests vs. managements. All ACA really needed was a new CEO/management team to patch things up with UA and their contract would have been more inline with SkyWest's and we may have never seen TSA, CHQ, YV in the UAX system. UA knew that which is why they tried the YV takeover route first(after asking SkyWest to do it first).
A long winded post for sure that's begging to be hammered, but I think this ACA/Indy situation is almost like a watershed event for the current regional industry. As we watch what happens to Mesaba, Comair, ASA, etc I think the history will start with the tale of ACA/Indy.
Their management overstepped their bounds in early 2002 by taking a hefty rate hike from UAL. To be clear, they were completely within their rights to do so via their contract, however UA management asked for a break considering the circumstances at the time. I believe ACA was the only carrier to take the increase, SkyWest and AirWis both stayed pretty much flat on their rates. If you remember this caused a big runup in ACA's stock price and hiring amid speculation that ACA was going to receive the lion's share of any additional flying in the UAX system due to the economic downturn. ACA management believed it was a shrewd move because they felt that they could capatilize revenue wise on UA downgauging a/c in the downturn which would give them more money when the recovery occurred and UA took some of the flights back to mainline. All the analysts agreed, except one(I don't think it was Boyd this time!), who said the strategy was only solid if UA was able to whether the storm and stay out of BK. Under that scenario, UA would have had to honor it's contract and ACA would have made serious cash. Any other scenario(BK/ATSB loan restrictions,etc) gave UA the opportunity to exact a measure of revenge. At the time, UA interim CEO Jack Creighton said as much internally to the employees about the ACA deal. His comments boiled down to 'We're very dissapointed with their decision, but we don't have a choice here; we need them right now and they have a valid contract with us, however we do intend to rectify the situation going forward." The comments from the guy running the UAX brand(Sean Donahue?) pretty much echoed the same sentiment.
With that setting the stage, is it any wonder the route UA took with ACA after BK? They were tough with everybody, but clearly harder on ACA then their other partners and the BK process made it legal. Management at every airline basically makes it clear that they run the show, you just work here. IMO, this is one of the situations where the ACA/Indy employees should have remembered that. Somewhere in the big RJ expansion phase of the late nineties/early 2000's, people stopped being commuter pilots and started being regional pilots. They flew RJ's now, not unsophisticated airplanes like Jetrstreams, 1900's, ATR's or Brasilia's that they all would have killed to fly two years prior. They flew too exotic second tier Mexican destinations and at off peak times on primarily mainline equipped routes while boasting of being 'all-jet'. A few of the companies attained DOT major status based on the revenues involved. This was all great, and definately something that should have promoted heavily during the numerous contact pushes during that time. Funny how you don't hear much of that these days. Problem was, we were still 'just' commuter pilots, only by the early 2000's most of us were too cool to accept that notion.
Management cares not for jobs, only profitibility and shareholder value. Shifting from economical, less capital intensive turboprops on routes that will never be touched by a major to less economical, capital intensive RJ's on routes that definately needed to be supported by mainline marketing and fee per departure agreements, was simply a matter of increasing profit margin and shareholder value to them. Never mind the fact, that it married their fortunes closely to those of the parent carrier, and effectively closed off the previous revenue streams because the equipment was no longer operated, the slots had been given to RJ's, and there was no where to park the equipment anymore anyway. From the line all the way up to the offices in Herndon, we missed this so when it came time to clean up managements mistakes we simply got mad at bad ol' United/UsAirways/NWA/AMR/DAL, etc. The paycuts ACA/Indy took, the effort to ward off Mesa, were all great employee efforts but they were basically the end game of internal managerial errors with UA and YV cast as the bad guys vs. ACA management. To most pilots 'just commuter pilots,' basically represents the opinions of arogant mainline pilots who either forgot where they came from or were ex-military and thought they were better. As far as the cockpit goes, those connotations have some validity. As far as the business goes though, it means what portion of the industry you work in and should have governed how you went about things as far as contracts, etc go-i.e. look out for your(pilots) interests vs. managements. All ACA really needed was a new CEO/management team to patch things up with UA and their contract would have been more inline with SkyWest's and we may have never seen TSA, CHQ, YV in the UAX system. UA knew that which is why they tried the YV takeover route first(after asking SkyWest to do it first).
A long winded post for sure that's begging to be hammered, but I think this ACA/Indy situation is almost like a watershed event for the current regional industry. As we watch what happens to Mesaba, Comair, ASA, etc I think the history will start with the tale of ACA/Indy.
logolight
Air Wisconsin
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2003
- Posts
- 236
The problem with the contract UAL had proposed for ACA was that, number one, United wanted control over our fleet structure. Which meant that at any time they could chose to park any number of our aircraft for what ever reason and then pull them back in whenever they saw fit. Number two, the contract also included a provision for United to eventualy dismantle ACA over the next 5 year period. So instead of signing our own death warrant the next best thing to do was to try and go out on our own. The timing wasn't great but it was the best opportunity we had at that time. Now Indy is furloughing back to June 2000. Most are moving on to other carriers and the rest are leaving the industry all together for a more stable career.
Well, if the fit hits the shan...you FLYi guys are always welcome at AWAC. Not much of a consolation I know but we are hiring as fast as we can right now. Attrition is extremely high due to uncommutable schedules but once the pilot shortage is cured, things will get better. I gained 15 #'s last month. That's pretty good considering I'm halfway through the list of 770 pilots.Total attrition per month is about 30. Upgrade is down to about 2.5 years but that will obviously be subject to change. I've been here since June '01 and I still like it...how bad can it be? I wish you guys the best.
AWACoff
AWACoff
Marko Ramius
Vilnius Nastavnic
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 378
Logolight
I agree the contract UA offerred ACA was horrible. From what I saw of it, it was markedly worse than the (substandard) contracts offerred to then current partners of Air Wis and SkyWest. I was getting at the reasons why UA offerred ACA mgmt such a turd, and it was primarily because of a cat fight that erupted between the two managements almost 10 mos. prior to the BK. ACA, not SkyWest, was clearly UA's golden child before that time. It could be argued that UA liked Air Wis better than SkyWest at the time as well-at least for RJ's. UA didn't really want to get rid of ACA, they wanted to get rid of ACA's management. That's the main reason that they were willing to sign a long term deal with Mesa or SkyWest if they took over the ACA assets, but not with ACA management. I think they hoped that either Mesa would win, or if not it would be enough to shake the shareholder/BOD confidence in the mgt. team and effect the change that way. When that failed they tried to starve Indy by delaying it's start as long as possible, hoping for the same result. IMO, if different mgt came in during that time they would have made a deal similar to SkyWest's. Heck, they even floated the idea of ACA returning to UAX when things went badly for Indy, figuring the point was made to mgt. It's just business to them and all of the other carriers out there. We as pilots are pretty task-oriented/focused. MGT loves to gives us a little info and box us into two decisions. We grumble about it, and then generally do what they ask of us. Rarely do we ask what the other options are at more than a conversational level(flightinfo, etc). In the ACA/Indy situation the crux of the problem occurred long before the contract offer and the Bain group. ACA ALPA had another option to Mesa; turn the focus of that public campaign on the actual problem-ACA management and see if they could force the shareholders/BOD to get someone in there to fix the situation and get a more realistic deal with UAL. As a regional airline, that would have made far more sense than Indy, to almost everyone except ACA management whose interests it obviously doesn't benefit. Or come up with a candidate for the job. TWA was able to do it keep Lorenzo out(just don't pick Icahn!), UA got rid of Ferris/Wolf. It's just an opinion, I think these times are our version of the 80's and we have to learn/understand what we did right and wrong to be better prepared going forward.
I agree the contract UA offerred ACA was horrible. From what I saw of it, it was markedly worse than the (substandard) contracts offerred to then current partners of Air Wis and SkyWest. I was getting at the reasons why UA offerred ACA mgmt such a turd, and it was primarily because of a cat fight that erupted between the two managements almost 10 mos. prior to the BK. ACA, not SkyWest, was clearly UA's golden child before that time. It could be argued that UA liked Air Wis better than SkyWest at the time as well-at least for RJ's. UA didn't really want to get rid of ACA, they wanted to get rid of ACA's management. That's the main reason that they were willing to sign a long term deal with Mesa or SkyWest if they took over the ACA assets, but not with ACA management. I think they hoped that either Mesa would win, or if not it would be enough to shake the shareholder/BOD confidence in the mgt. team and effect the change that way. When that failed they tried to starve Indy by delaying it's start as long as possible, hoping for the same result. IMO, if different mgt came in during that time they would have made a deal similar to SkyWest's. Heck, they even floated the idea of ACA returning to UAX when things went badly for Indy, figuring the point was made to mgt. It's just business to them and all of the other carriers out there. We as pilots are pretty task-oriented/focused. MGT loves to gives us a little info and box us into two decisions. We grumble about it, and then generally do what they ask of us. Rarely do we ask what the other options are at more than a conversational level(flightinfo, etc). In the ACA/Indy situation the crux of the problem occurred long before the contract offer and the Bain group. ACA ALPA had another option to Mesa; turn the focus of that public campaign on the actual problem-ACA management and see if they could force the shareholders/BOD to get someone in there to fix the situation and get a more realistic deal with UAL. As a regional airline, that would have made far more sense than Indy, to almost everyone except ACA management whose interests it obviously doesn't benefit. Or come up with a candidate for the job. TWA was able to do it keep Lorenzo out(just don't pick Icahn!), UA got rid of Ferris/Wolf. It's just an opinion, I think these times are our version of the 80's and we have to learn/understand what we did right and wrong to be better prepared going forward.
smellthejeta
The plane I solo'd in
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2003
- Posts
- 588
In many different arenas, I keep hearing "What about the shareholders?" "The shareholders got screwed!" My sincere opinion on that is that the shareholders failed to put pressure on the BOD to oust management. That's an issue NOBODY wants to touch -- that the shareholders and BOD are just as culpable as Skeen et al.
Well, I have to say this thread has at least been educational. I've found it amazing how unemployment pays more than first year at ASA (and many others) and yet still, we can point fingers at another airline and with a straight face say they are bringing down the profession.
If that's the case people, IT'S ALREADY BEEN BROUGHT DOWN !!!
If that's the case people, IT'S ALREADY BEEN BROUGHT DOWN !!!
bitememesa
Victim of Dante's Inferno
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2005
- Posts
- 50
WhiteCloud
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2002
- Posts
- 1,012
Rez O. Lewshun
Save the Profession
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2004
- Posts
- 13,422
smellthejeta
The plane I solo'd in
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2003
- Posts
- 588
bitememesa said:
If I lost my current pilot job and could not get on with a Legacy or LCC I would go and get a day job. Anyone with a college degree shouldn't have a problem getting a job paying $3000 a month. The problem with pilots is that we like to fly, overall enjoy our jobs and we've told everybody that. A lot of professions have the problem of people being willing to do the job for less...i.e. computer programmers, lawyers, accountants...our problem is that their are people willing to pay to do our job as if it were a ride at Disney Land. Pilots are the ones going to the car dealers telling them "man I love this car...I gotta have it!"
I don't care what anyone says... pilots have screwed more pilots than any management ever has.
Our collective bargaining agreements are the only things preventing our managements from charging for our seats. Pretty soon you will be able to go onto priceline.com and bid to be a CA on your flight. R/T to LAX $300 but if you want to be the captain it'll cost you $600!
Whoever says being bought by Mesa is better than not having a job is part of the problem. Kudos to the ACAers who fought Mesa off. Kudos to the ComAir guys being the only regional pilots with the balls (and ovaries) to strike...shame on the rest of us.
Later
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