Flops pay vs. the economy excuse

[dime line]

management has the money.....otherwise they couldnt be called "management"

dont let those crooks fool you. It is undisputed fact that corporate america is what fcked us all into the economy we're in.

they got the money and you guys do all the work. Sometimes you gotta b1tch slap them to understand who really keeps the company operating.

I think you might be wrong here (I don't know the numbers, but i'm not blind) . Lets remember in 2004-2005 we had 1000 pilots (aprox 220 planes) and today we have 320 (aprox 70 planes). Where did all that money go? We have a crapload less owners today than we did yesterday.

 

[brokeflyer]

I think you might be wrong here (I don't know the numbers, but i'm not blind) . Lets remember in 2004-2005 we had 1000 pilots (aprox 220 planes) and today we have 320 (aprox 70 planes). Where did all that money go? We have a crapload less owners today than we did yesterday.

yeah, where did all that money go?

re-read the first line of my previous post. Let me know what you find out....

not being a smart ass either. you know what im talking about.

 

[skyismyoffice]

Where did all that money go?

Shirtfinger and Punjab ran off with it!

 

[Frac Cap]

I have done my due diligence. I have read the entire contract. There are things I like, and things I don't. I know that Matt and his team worked hard on this contract, and I sincerely thank them for their time and effort. And most importantly the sacrifice they have made being away from their family's, in hopes that we could better our lives. It is a hard job trying to get a first contract, a job that few could do. So to you Matt, and all of your team, I thank you.

With that being said, I must say management didn't make my decision very difficult to come to. At the end of next month I will be casting a strong NO vote on this contract.

It is clear that the offer is one that management would love us to take so that they could continue to try to rebuild this company on the pilots backs. I say rebuild, because we all know $hitfinger devastated our company, and it needs to be rebuilt. But that's not the pilots fault, and we should not have to pay for it. People say that there is no more money on the table. Well I say that the money should come from the customers. If we charge industry standard, management could pay us industry standard. We advertise our prices 32% below the competition. Well we all know how that is possible. We subsidize the travel of people that could afford to pay industry standard. But because we have cheep travel, the cheep will come to us for a bargain.

Deregulation killed the airlines, and it's ability to sustain a professional wage. Professionals that struggled to get the education and experience required to make our airline industry the best and safest in the world. Our industry is no longer what it use to be. The fractional industry revolutionized how people travel privately. It also is on the path to make the majors just one of two choices a fledgling aviator would choose as their ultimate destiny.

But Flops wants to lower that bar. Management wants to perpetuate the stagnation in pay that will undoubtedly lower the bar for other fractionals for years to come. To compete, the other fractionals will without a doubt have to lower their pay. Well, I will not be apart of scuttling this industry's chance of becoming a preferred destination for thousands of pilots careers. We have sacrificed enough.

I hope all will look long and hard at this TA, read it, and understand it, and come to the conclusion that for the sakes of all fractional pilots, this contract must not be voted in.

 

[netjetwife]

Completely aside from the disappointing pay, from my perspective at the very least they could have done the fair thing and settled on a 2 -3 year total duration instead of trying to take advantage of the situation.

I think BF has a valid point of view. If corporate greed weren't such a common problem the expression wouldn't be so familiar. I just don't see the history (of them treating the pilots like respected professionals) that inspires trust when an assessment has to be made. Admittedly I'm on the outside looking in. Maybe the labor-management relationship has improved? I also realize that each section must be considered from every angle and not everyone shares the same perspective when doing so.

Please know that my personal observations are shared from a community spirit and an interest is seeing fairness prevail. Above all, I'm very glad for the Flt Ops pilotgroup that you and your families are finally having the long awaited debate and that you can actually hold a TA in your hands. I know full well it was an emotional roller coaster to get to this point and your collective accomplishment as members of 1108 should not go unnoticed --regardless of how you're leaning as individuals. Kudos to all of you! NJW

 

[netjetwife]

Hear! Hear! Well said Frac Cap! From beginning to end, a classy post! It's not my place to suggest where the money should come from (just to be clear on that point), but I definitely appreciate your visionary thinking and concern for the entire industry. Respectfully, NJW

 

[ProFracPilot]

I have done my due diligence. I have read the entire contract. There are things I like, and things I don't. I know that Matt and his team worked hard on this contract, and I sincerely thank them for their time and effort. And most importantly the sacrifice they have made being away from their family's, in hopes that we could better our lives. It is a hard job trying to get a first contract, a job that few could do. So to you Matt, and all of your team, I thank you.

You've paid such close attention to the communication coming from our president and the E-board that you don't even know his name. It is Mat, not Matt.

With that being said, I must say management didn't make my decision very difficult to come to. At the end of next month I will be casting a strong NO vote on this contract.

You will vote no. It is one vote, and has no other weighting to it.

It is clear that the offer is one that management would love us to take so that they could continue to try to rebuild this company on the pilots backs. I say rebuild, because we all know $hitfinger devastated our company, and it needs to be rebuilt. But that's not the pilots fault, and we should not have to pay for it. People say that there is no more money on the table. Well I say that the money should come from the customers. If we charge industry standard, management could pay us industry standard. We advertise our prices 32% below the competition. Well we all know how that is possible. We subsidize the travel of people that could afford to pay industry standard. But because we have cheep travel, the cheep will come to us for a bargain.

Deregulation killed the airlines, and it's ability to sustain a professional wage. Professionals that struggled to get the education and experience required to make our airline industry the best and safest in the world. Our industry is no longer what it use to be. The fractional industry revolutionized how people travel privately. It also is on the path to make the majors just one of two choices a fledgling aviator would choose as their ultimate destiny.

But Flops wants to lower that bar. Management wants to perpetuate the stagnation in pay that will undoubtedly lower the bar for other fractionals for years to come. To compete, the other fractionals will without a doubt have to lower their pay. Well, I will not be apart of scuttling this industry's chance of becoming a preferred destination for thousands of pilots careers. We have sacrificed enough.

Your post gets a little confusing here. Who are you comparing us with? The legacy major 121 carriers? Is that where we, as a company, fit in fractional market? Or do we need to take a little more realistic view? The 121 carriers have niche players today. They're not all Delta, CO or AA. There's also Southwest and AirTran. You may not like that we are positioned as the "value proposition" in our industry, but this is nothing new. Do you believe we're charging the same rates as NJ or the other subsidized fracs? I don't believe this for a minute. Where we are in the industry is a reality and wishing it were different is not going to magically give us a larger piece of the pie. Then there's that nagging little thing called economic turmoil that everyone wants to pretend should not be a factor.

We all indeed have sacrificed for this company. Some of us have sacrificed more than others. But to make the statements you make as if there is NOTHING to be gained from this TA is very disingenuous. We will be securing a 7&7 schedule, work rules and protections - and SUBSTANTIAL pay increases over the life of this contract. We entrusted our negotiating team to negotiate the best contract they could. I believe that, given the unprecedented economic challenges that have confronted everyone over the last 24 months, they have done just that.

I hope all will look long and hard at this TA, read it, and understand it, and come to the conclusion that for the sakes of all fractional pilots, this contract must not be voted in.

I have read it, understand its contents, and will still be voting YES.

 

[netjetwife]

PFP, perhaps if you read the post as a philosophical position it wouldn't seem confusing. My understanding is that Frac Cap wants to see an end to the infamous race to the bottom that has been plaguing aviation. I wholeheartedly support his viewpoint.

It isn't realistic to think that your TA will receive a 100% approval rating, counting actual votes or outside opinions from FI members. There will simply be some who don't agree with it. Respectful debate, though, is possible and is an important part of the process. Now is the time for questions and analysis --not after ratification. A vigorous debate shows the members of a group are engaged and that participation builds unity.

Even when I comment on a post that I personally happen to agree with, supporting the overall democratic process is my primary interest. It's a philosophical outlook. I fully support civil discourse on current events, applauding the effort even though one declines the offer, and respectfully articulating the reason(s) one accepts or rejects a TA.

 

[Joe Jet Pilot]

Do you know if they have a contract yet? Do you know when in 2007 they voted it down?

I don't

 

[Lear70]

Use of real names will get someone banned unless they divulge their own identity. See the Terms of Service.

Thanks for your understanding.

/Mod