Flight School Info - Get off the fence

[jldv]

Let's kick up a little dirt here.

I don't know how many of these threads I have read where users reply to flight school/training inquiries with generic replies ranging from, 'depends on the instructor', to 'be wary of planes without propellers.'

Draw a line in the sand and take a stand, all of you experienced pilots out there. I've got 35 hours, approaching my checkride, and I'm making the leap to quit my job and go for it. I've done a lot of research and this, the message board, is one of the final steps.

1. FBO v. Flight School

Some have said that the pay for hours method is flawed. What have people's experience been on this? I've noticed there is no prevailing theory on this so the question is why or why not?

Does anyone have a friend who bought an old Piper, flew at his local FBO, and was hired by Southwest 3 three years later after spending $400?

What about a successful flight school story? Anyone?

What about a horror story? Guy spends 50k and is back at his FBO instructing.

2. Flight Schools

I've heard of:

• *Flight Safety
  *All ATP
  *Gulfstream
  *Mesa
  *ComAir
  *PanAm

Who's been where? Did it work how you planned? Was it more expensive? Did it take longer to get a job? Did they get you a job? An interview? Did you have to instruct when you were done?

Any and all reponses are greatly appreciated.

 

[bigD]

Really man, there's a reason why we're on the fence about this. There are too many variables and different ways people learn to have one complete, correct, answer. You might as well ask us to argue whether Mexican food is better than Italian.

For every good/bad experience I've heard about FBO training, I've heard another good/bad experience about the big guys. You've already done the majority of the work in researching and reading the various posts on the subject. My only other recommendation would be to visit a variety of smaller flight schools, and maybe take a trip and visit some of the bigger guys - then draw your own conclusion.

 

[jldv]

Thanks for the reply. I do appreciate it.

Its not a question of whether you like Mexican or Italian more, but why. That's what I'm interested in. I've already formulated my own ideas as to the trade-offs; I'm curious to know what other people have experienced compared to their expectations.

My guess is that paying 30k in 90 days to get all your ratings isn't as valuable, in an interview, as grinding it out at your local FBO.

Two guys with identical resumes, one went the FBO route, the other a flight school (fast track is what I'm referring to), my guess is that the guy who ground it out at his FBO demonstrates greater dedication than the guy who borrows the cash and three months later has his spoon fed flight time.

I'm leaning toward fast track, I'll be 30 this year, and my inclination is to get in, get the training, and get on with it. My fear is that this will be viewed as less valuable, less credible flight time.

And maybe flight time is flight time. No one cares how you got it.

I'm just interested in the debate, not the answer, I'll figure it out from there.

Thanks again.

 

[bobbysamd]

Au contraire

For one thing, you cannot be "spoon fed" flight training. Learning is an active process. In other words, you have to participate and not sit there. Flight instructors detest students who are not prepared for their training periods and who must be spoon fed. Those students end up paying more for their training than those who prepare and do their homework.

This is especially so at the so-called fast-track schools. You have to keep up or you will be left by the wayside. This is especially so at FlightSafety, one of the schools that you listed in your opening post. I know; I instructed there several years ago. Unless an FBO is operating an approved school, you are afforded more of a chance at an FBO to learn at your own pace. That has its pluses and minuses.

I happen to like schools. I instructed at a few, including FSI and Mesa, two of the schools you mentioned. I wish that I went to a school instead of the way I trained. I believe that you learn more, better, and faster in a structured program. I feel that name recognition of a school can facilitate your career. A school would be my recommendation, but that doesn't mean that you cannot attain your goals by taking training from some other source. Plenty of people have and plenty of people will.

The flight time logged at a school is regarded strictly as training time. Everyone has to train. The type and quality of flight time you build after training through employment is what carries the weight.

Hope that helps some more.

 

[bigD]

Really, I think when it comes down to interviews - it doesn't matter.

I personally am taking the Part 61 route. Not because I think I'll be better trained, or because I think it'll make me more employable down the line - it just fits better with my schedule, and it gives me more flexability to do things at my own pace. With my work and school schedule, Part 61 makes the most sense for my particular situation.

Now since you feel that time is of the essence, going to a more structured program might be a good decision. I certainly don't think it'll affect your employability (I say this in regard to programs where you don't pay to play F/O - that's a different discussion).

 

[jldv]

Awesome!

This is the information I was looking for, specifically the comment regarding learning more in a structured program. Great feedback.

Thank you

 

[B190Captain]

I'd say that you should give Flight Safety a good look. I attended there in 93 and it was a great experience. You may have to cut your arm off to pay for it these days but it's definetly worth investigating.

 

[jldv]

Excellent, thank you.

Did you stay on to instruct? If not, why? If so, was it a decent place to instruct?

Again, thanks. I appreciate the specific comments.

 

[bobbysamd]

FlightSafety: An instructor's haven?

Did you stay on to instruct? If not, why? If so, was it a decent place to instruct?

Let me qualify my comments very specifically.

I instructed at FSI in the early '90s. The Chief Pilot and Center Manager have since moved on. The Chief Pilot especially set the tone for the place. I know the current Center Manager and he is a first-class person. I know who the current Chief Pilot is from a prior encounter.

Having said all that, I did not care for the place (Once again, this was the early '90s.). The Chief Pilot had no feel for people and treated every instructor like punks. Being over 40 at the time I was a punk no longer and didn't care for his treatment. We had a veteran of the place who had trained there and was a training leader for several foreign airline programs at the school. He was treated in a similar shoddy fashion. This gentleman was great with people and much more patient than me; he later became Chief Pilot and a DE.

Now, having written all that and knowing who runs the place now, I think it would a great opportunity for you to instruct at FSI. I know that instructors have been given a pay raise since I was there. Benies at FSI have always been good; health insurance and 401-K. Good opportunity to build actual instrument and multi time. Connections. A high-quality person who is heavily involved with flight instructors. Good facilities. All in all, an okay place to hang your hat for a while.

Once more, I recommend FSI as a good source of flight training. Especially for you, who is seeking an accelerated program.

Hope that helps a little more.

 

[tarp]

JLDV - some of your quotes:

"I've got 35 hours, approaching my checkride, and I'm making the leap to quit my job and go for it."

"bought an old Piper, flew at his local FBO, and was hired by Southwest 3 three years later after spending $400?"

"horror story? Guy spends 50k and is back at his FBO instructing"

------------

Go for it? Great. I'm not a naysayer but you do have to face reality. It's 2003, there are two airlines on the brink of bankruptcy and everyone is in a bunker mentality. My own rosey sky belief is that by 2008 everyone will have forgotten this downturn but that's 5 years away.

The factory/structured/intensity schools are going to take between $25K and $50K of your money to give you 250 hours in your logbook and Comm, IR, Multi, CFI, CFII and MEI ratings. You will be unemployed and away from home (possibly) for between 3 months and one year depending on how good a student you are.
Some of these programs have housing included and some don't.

You will have a very structured course of flying and ground school. You will have pretty good equipment in a fairly consistent fleet. You will have to bust your hump every day to stay with the "normal" (high-speed) program. If you fall behind or get stage check failures, it will cost you more money and time. Nothing, repeat nothing is guaranteed if you fall behind the course curriculum.

When you are done, you will have 250-300hrs in your logbook and all those ratings listed above. Now, our regional airline accepts folks from qualified 4-yr degree schools (read ERAU, UND, Webster, etc.) with a served internship and 600hrs TT. We also have inked a deal with one of these Airline Academies but it was our discretion and in times of need for classes. We will talk to "Instructors" from this academy that have 800-1,000hrs TT and have a recomendation from the school. Finally, for the man in the street, we will now consider 3000hrs TT to be competitive with at least 500multi and some turbine.

So with this in mind, your "commitment" to your choice of school may have to include the thought that after your very successful student relationship with the factory school, you may have to turn around and accept their offer to come back as an instructor and "build time".

So spending $50K and then having to instruct is not a horror story, it's normal -- you may not be instructing at a Mom and Pop FBO but you'll still be instructing.

At the FBO, you will not have consistent training or consistent equipment. There is a chance that you will meet a really nice and well-qualified instructor who is genuinely happy to have you as a customer or you could run into one of the thousands of CFI's "just building time". If you are lucky enough to find a good instructor, the experience will be wonderful and you will learn at your own pace. You can even live in your own home and possibly hold down a job while you are learning to fly. If you run into the "i don't care" type of FBO, it's just futility.

When you are done, you've probably spent/saved half the cost of the factory school (i.e. by not paying as much per flight hour AND keeping a day job). However, the time frame will be elongated by quite a bit. You will still get Comm, IR, Multi, CFI, CFII and MEI and you will still build about 250-300hrs. It won't be $400! In fact, you will still spend $25K-40K depending on the market you're in.

What you won't have with the local FBO is an invite to stay and teach at the school - it might happen if you are a nice guy that has made personal connections. You won't have any "tie-ins" with a regional carrier.

So "off the fence" -- do what your wallet/bank account can stand inside how good a student you are (really).

Your not going to a 4-year school - so take that out of the equation.

Are you going to go to an Academy (factory) school and be the best darn student in class? You are going to push through at the fast pace and you are going to make a mark on the staff so that you are one of the "excellent" students they invite back to be an instructor at the school. In this scenario, you will pay out about $50K, then accept poverty wages for about a year to 18 months waiting for your airline interview. However, you are pushing to make the goal.

Can't afford that or can't be that committed? Then Plan B.