Flight School/Flight Training Question

[172driver]

Marcus,

Fair enough. I respect your defense of ATA but I only speak of what I see out there and it is bad...much worse than Riddle, FSI, Comair, Air Orlando, or any of the FBO's. The CFI's seem lost and are constantly being griped at by approach. Maybe I just see the bad stuff? BTW, most of the CFI's trained at Comair and working at ATA are there because they didn't get hired at Comair or couldn't complete the program for a variety of reasons.

When was the last time ATA placed someone at an airline? You say they place people at several. So does Comair...before September of last year that is.

I'm sure there are many quality people there but I see and hear bad things and was only trying to share the info. Bottom line is that a sharp, hard working student can pretty much succeed anywhere.

 

[Chunk]

172driver,

Lost, huh? I guess the comair guy that decided that self-announcing on CTAF tonight in VRB was optional (with 5 in the pattern) and noise abatement in Vero doesn't matter?

There are dumb@sses at all schools....Comair certainly doesn't have an untarnished image...

I go to FSI. I do not work for marketing, in fact I'm a mere student (not on the payroll), I wonder about you. Who signs your checks....I bet it's the marketing manager at Conair....



Chunk

 

[Pirep1]

I, unfortunately, have to agree with 172Driver. I, also fly in the same airspace as ATA. I've had to many scary "coincidences" with redtails to make it random occurences (especially at Leesburg). Chunk is right that all schools have dumba$$#$ (even FSI), but there comes a point where you have to believe some places have more than others. See and be seen (and heard, with correct position reports). Chunk, I don't know how you would know it was a Comair plane in Vero's pattern at night, I don't know why they would fly that far down South to do touch n go's. Usually, all I see from planes anyways at night is nav lights and strobes, but if they weren't making calls, that's not a good thing. I've not had too many complaints against Comair guys, they are usually good, safe pilots to share airspace with. I guess the only complaint I would have is that there are too many of them making too many calls. Busy airspace! But I guess that makes for a good heads up pilot, we hope.

 

[Brokepilot]

I realize that your friend is looking to go to school somewhere near Vero Beach, so this may not be of any help to you. But, please if they decide to train in the DFW area DO NOT LET THEM GO TO INTERNATIONAL AVIATION AND TRAVEL ACADEMY. This school. as I've said before on this board, will rob you blind. They are dishonest and even if you decide to quit they still want you to pay for the entire cost of the course. The owner and office persons that run the course are not pilots and do not understand many things that pilots take for granted. For example: it takes two pilots to perform simulated instrument approaches if one is under the hood. You know its the little things in life like SAFETY that they want to cut corners on.

OK, sorry to go off there for a minute. Just steer your friend clear of IATAC.

Good Luck
Brokepilot

 

[PilotOnTheRise]

Before looking into a Part 141 school, look into what Part 61 instructors are around his area and what they have to offer. I understand that pilots recommend going to Part 141 schools for ratings, however aren't ratings, ratings afterall. Most Part 141 schools are very expensive for what you get. Flight Safeties basic program includes the following ratings; Private, Instrument, Multi-Engine, Commercial Multi-Engine. That leaves out all of the CFIs and a Single Engine Commercial. The total price is $44K. To ad the remainder of the ratings it costs around $71K. Not to mention that $1500 of the $44K includes 27 hours on Microsofts Flight Simulator at a computer like you are probably sitting at now. Yes, thats right, they charge $55/hr for Flight simulator, that I can by for less than that and play all I want. IMHO that is a complete rip-off and I will never go there. Im sure there is a Flight Safety guy ready to argue his case, but I'm sitting right here with their information I received in the mail and anyone is welcome to request it from them and see for themselves. I am currently working on my ratings Part 61. I can get all of the ratings I will need for starts, including; Private, Instrument, Commercial, Commercial-Multi-Instrument and my CFI for about a little less than $20K with my current instructor. I get more one on one, because my instructor is free lance and does not have to rush to fit 5 flights a day or more in, etc. I can do it at my own pace .. if I want to get all of them in 24 weeks as you would with Flight Safety or if I want to take a year or more I can. That is not to knock Flight Safety or any other Part 141 school, however, you do not have to go to a Part 141 school to get your ratings, often doing it Part 61 is cheaper and you also end up with more hours when you are done than with a Part 141.
My point is this .. he needs to go to the school he wants, if it be Flight Safety, COMAIR, Pan Am or whoever. But don't forget about the Part 61 guys out there. They are just as good and often more convenient if you have a guy right there in your own home town.

 

[bobbysamd]

FlightSafety sim time

Your comment about FSI sim training is misleading. Below is the course outline I copied from http://www.flightsafetyacademy.com/career.htm :

HOURS INSTRUCTION
176.0 Academic Class
26.0 Crew Resource Management (CRM)/Human Factor
44.0 Dual Flight Warrior Cadet VFR.
61.0 Solo Practice Flight Warrior Cadet
55.0 Multiengine Instruction Dual Flight Seminole
4.0 Unusual Attitude/Spin Recovery - Zlin 242L
30.0 Flight Trainer (Frasca - 142)
110.0 Flight Briefing
27.0 Microsoft Lab
(emphasis added)

The course really isn't much different than when I taught there ten years ago. We didn't have Zlins, but taught the unusual attitudes in Aerobat 152s. Before we used those, we used either a Citabria or a Decathlon. The Microsoft Lab is new, which is understandable with the advent of powerful computers during the past ten years. But, most of the sim time is still in the Frascas. I don't believe that Microsoft Lab can count for flight training device time per Part 61.

Read some my other FSI posts. In a nutshell, I had my differences with Vero's management, which is why I left after just over a year. But, I know the people who are in charge now because I knew them back then. They are first-class people. Notwithstanding my experiences working there, I'd recommend FSI to anyone for flight training. Of course, price is a consideration.

 

[PilotOnTheRise]

1) I never said that the sim training was done on Microsoft Flight Sim. I said that 27hrs that cost $1500, was sitting at a computer in a lab, they title "Microsoft Lab". That comes out to be around $55/hr you pay to play Flight Sim. The game itself cost less than $55, depending on where you get it. I think that 27hrs on flight sim does nothing and I can get a complete rating, or 27 hrs actual flight time for $1500 where I live/am getting my ratings. And you are correct, no you cannot log Microsoft Flight Sim time .. thats the point of it being ridiculous to play 27hrs at $55/hr on it, when you could be paying $55/hr to rent a 150 and get actual flight time. Yes, with FSI you do get actual sim time, that you can log .. Why not do more of that than charge $1500 to play Flight Sim.

2) My statement about what ratings you get in the basic program are not misleading. For $44K there is ALOT of things missing that any pilot, wishing to fly professionally should have! I realize that there are other programs they have that may get you those ... but from the brochures I got from them, to add the rest would cost approx. $71K. (Maybe I got a messed up copy of their training brochures and prices, maybe there copy machine went crazy, but Im not reading exactly what you are saying.)

3) The CRM training!!! -- Don't you get that while in training when you get hired by an airline anyway!?! And it is free with the airline -- wonder how much FSI charges for it?

4) There are some other things I am reading that they charge for as well that are ridiculous, that are listed on the back of the brochure with training costs. I do not wish to list all and sit here and start a huge argument over FSI ... although I probably already have.

I am sure FSI is a good school and I do not mean to make them to sound like a bad school -- if I had to recommend going to a Part 141 school, it would probably be them. However ... I don't feel the training you get there is better than anywhere else, I think all you get, honestly, is the name. I also feel as if some of their prices are ridiculous ... but it is not FSI I feel this way about .. it is most all 141 schools. I was simply making the point, to look into some Part 61 stuff and not just concentrate on Part 141 schools.

 

[Chunk]

FSI

172driver,

How hard is it to look up the owner of an N-number....? Not very.


Pilotontherise,

You say you don't want to knock FSI, but then proceed to make judgments about things you know nothing about. The MS sim is free - unlimited use after checkout. The $$ is for the CFI to sit next to you for the first few (3) hours. No one I know pays that kind of dough for the MS lab.

I've trained in many different environments....FBO, university, military, and now large school (FSI). I'd certainly rank my military training in the number one spot, just because of the resources available to the student/instructor. However, FSI is a close second, in fact, better in some areas. For example, my weather classes are taught by a retired EAL dispatcher with 30 years experience PLUS a masters in Wx. Did my FBO offer that? No! Can yours? Doubtful. Is FSI for everyone? No. Is FSI the only way? Of course not. Should you, or anyone else, knock us who have made the financial and time commitment to doing our training at what we consider the best civilian flight school in the world, just because it's not what you chose? No!

On a few of the forums I participate in, it seems like a sport to knock anyone who goes to a big school. I'm kinda tired of it. I assure you, we don't sit around knocking FBO guys over lunch....that's where most of us started.

Just speaking my peace,

Chunk

 

[172driver]

Pilotontherise,

I agree that Pt 61 is a good route. However, I think you are exaggerating the lower cost. Come back when you have all of your ratings and tell us how much they cost. At the $20,000 you quoted, that works out to $80/hr for CFI and plane just to get your 250 hrs for Commercial single. Hmmm, sounds a little lower than any FBO I've ever seen. So, let's say $25,000 for CASEL. Then add 20-30 hrs of multi in there and you're looking at another $5,000. CFI, CFII, MEI will be at least $5000 more, probably closer to 10K. Miscellaneous ground work, sim time, etc will be added in. Minimum of $35K, if you do it in minimum time which most don't, hence the high prices quoted by 141 schools. Most of the reputable schools quote avg cost, not minimums. Yes, 141 schools have higher rates and you pay for ground school but the difference is not as great as you think. BTW, students can get a Commercial ticket at some 141 schools with around 120 hrs. The rates may be higher per hr but if you can cut the hrs in half...

de727ups,

Sounds like a great idea. Maybe they'll even find someone who wants a right-seater in a C172 seaplane? Hope it works out for you.

I work at a 141 school and though i am a low timer, I have signed off 12 IFR students and 8 CFI-I, not to mention a load of private, commercial, and CFI students. Sounds like in my one yr of instructing, I am pushing your numbers. I may not have your overall experience but am very, very current and proficient. What's more important...total time or recency of the time? I think both are important but don't think my lack of total time hurts my students too much. For what I train them to do, I am at the top of my game. If asked to fly a 727 or even a C172 into ATL or ORD, I might be lacking a bit. To teach approaches and holds at 90 kts, I'm your man. Of course they will pay a bit more than 3-4K to do it.

 

[172driver]

Agreed completely. I do want to get out of here but...i love instructing and will come back to it. I definitely give it my best effort. Hopefully, when I come back, it will be in the Part 61 world. It's the bureaucracy of 141 that makes instructing tough.

Yes, we fly in IMC, no GPS, no autopilot. Just a couple VOR's and an ADF, sometimes DME. How ridiculous would that be if we didn't...I would leave that school in a hurry. Nor would I ever sign anyone off who's never seen the inside of a cloud. At least I wouldn't sign them off with much confidence. The hood is hardly a substitute as you know.

Not much IFR outside of training, though I don't see much difference. An instrument X-C is the same as real life IFR flying and is MUCH easier than the training environment where we'll shoot 4 approaches in 1.5 hrs. That's tough. In real life you have 1.5+ just to set up for the one approach you're going to shoot. You're right though, it is experience that counts, and I'm working on it. I'm sure I could learn much from you and you a little from me. Good luck with your school. Sounds like a great idea and it will be fun to drive the little planes again with students, I'm sure.