Flight School/Flight Training Question

[bobbysamd]

FlightSafety sim time

Your comment about FSI sim training is misleading. Below is the course outline I copied from http://www.flightsafetyacademy.com/career.htm :

HOURS INSTRUCTION
176.0 Academic Class
26.0 Crew Resource Management (CRM)/Human Factor
44.0 Dual Flight Warrior Cadet VFR.
61.0 Solo Practice Flight Warrior Cadet
55.0 Multiengine Instruction Dual Flight Seminole
4.0 Unusual Attitude/Spin Recovery - Zlin 242L
30.0 Flight Trainer (Frasca - 142)
110.0 Flight Briefing
27.0 Microsoft Lab
(emphasis added)

The course really isn't much different than when I taught there ten years ago. We didn't have Zlins, but taught the unusual attitudes in Aerobat 152s. Before we used those, we used either a Citabria or a Decathlon. The Microsoft Lab is new, which is understandable with the advent of powerful computers during the past ten years. But, most of the sim time is still in the Frascas. I don't believe that Microsoft Lab can count for flight training device time per Part 61.

Read some my other FSI posts. In a nutshell, I had my differences with Vero's management, which is why I left after just over a year. But, I know the people who are in charge now because I knew them back then. They are first-class people. Notwithstanding my experiences working there, I'd recommend FSI to anyone for flight training. Of course, price is a consideration.

 

[PilotOnTheRise]

1) I never said that the sim training was done on Microsoft Flight Sim. I said that 27hrs that cost $1500, was sitting at a computer in a lab, they title "Microsoft Lab". That comes out to be around $55/hr you pay to play Flight Sim. The game itself cost less than $55, depending on where you get it. I think that 27hrs on flight sim does nothing and I can get a complete rating, or 27 hrs actual flight time for $1500 where I live/am getting my ratings. And you are correct, no you cannot log Microsoft Flight Sim time .. thats the point of it being ridiculous to play 27hrs at $55/hr on it, when you could be paying $55/hr to rent a 150 and get actual flight time. Yes, with FSI you do get actual sim time, that you can log .. Why not do more of that than charge $1500 to play Flight Sim.

2) My statement about what ratings you get in the basic program are not misleading. For $44K there is ALOT of things missing that any pilot, wishing to fly professionally should have! I realize that there are other programs they have that may get you those ... but from the brochures I got from them, to add the rest would cost approx. $71K. (Maybe I got a messed up copy of their training brochures and prices, maybe there copy machine went crazy, but Im not reading exactly what you are saying.)

3) The CRM training!!! -- Don't you get that while in training when you get hired by an airline anyway!?! And it is free with the airline -- wonder how much FSI charges for it?

4) There are some other things I am reading that they charge for as well that are ridiculous, that are listed on the back of the brochure with training costs. I do not wish to list all and sit here and start a huge argument over FSI ... although I probably already have.

I am sure FSI is a good school and I do not mean to make them to sound like a bad school -- if I had to recommend going to a Part 141 school, it would probably be them. However ... I don't feel the training you get there is better than anywhere else, I think all you get, honestly, is the name. I also feel as if some of their prices are ridiculous ... but it is not FSI I feel this way about .. it is most all 141 schools. I was simply making the point, to look into some Part 61 stuff and not just concentrate on Part 141 schools.

 

[Chunk]

FSI

172driver,

How hard is it to look up the owner of an N-number....? Not very.


Pilotontherise,

You say you don't want to knock FSI, but then proceed to make judgments about things you know nothing about. The MS sim is free - unlimited use after checkout. The $$ is for the CFI to sit next to you for the first few (3) hours. No one I know pays that kind of dough for the MS lab.

I've trained in many different environments....FBO, university, military, and now large school (FSI). I'd certainly rank my military training in the number one spot, just because of the resources available to the student/instructor. However, FSI is a close second, in fact, better in some areas. For example, my weather classes are taught by a retired EAL dispatcher with 30 years experience PLUS a masters in Wx. Did my FBO offer that? No! Can yours? Doubtful. Is FSI for everyone? No. Is FSI the only way? Of course not. Should you, or anyone else, knock us who have made the financial and time commitment to doing our training at what we consider the best civilian flight school in the world, just because it's not what you chose? No!

On a few of the forums I participate in, it seems like a sport to knock anyone who goes to a big school. I'm kinda tired of it. I assure you, we don't sit around knocking FBO guys over lunch....that's where most of us started.

Just speaking my peace,

Chunk

 

[172driver]

Pilotontherise,

I agree that Pt 61 is a good route. However, I think you are exaggerating the lower cost. Come back when you have all of your ratings and tell us how much they cost. At the $20,000 you quoted, that works out to $80/hr for CFI and plane just to get your 250 hrs for Commercial single. Hmmm, sounds a little lower than any FBO I've ever seen. So, let's say $25,000 for CASEL. Then add 20-30 hrs of multi in there and you're looking at another $5,000. CFI, CFII, MEI will be at least $5000 more, probably closer to 10K. Miscellaneous ground work, sim time, etc will be added in. Minimum of $35K, if you do it in minimum time which most don't, hence the high prices quoted by 141 schools. Most of the reputable schools quote avg cost, not minimums. Yes, 141 schools have higher rates and you pay for ground school but the difference is not as great as you think. BTW, students can get a Commercial ticket at some 141 schools with around 120 hrs. The rates may be higher per hr but if you can cut the hrs in half...

de727ups,

Sounds like a great idea. Maybe they'll even find someone who wants a right-seater in a C172 seaplane? Hope it works out for you.

I work at a 141 school and though i am a low timer, I have signed off 12 IFR students and 8 CFI-I, not to mention a load of private, commercial, and CFI students. Sounds like in my one yr of instructing, I am pushing your numbers. I may not have your overall experience but am very, very current and proficient. What's more important...total time or recency of the time? I think both are important but don't think my lack of total time hurts my students too much. For what I train them to do, I am at the top of my game. If asked to fly a 727 or even a C172 into ATL or ORD, I might be lacking a bit. To teach approaches and holds at 90 kts, I'm your man. Of course they will pay a bit more than 3-4K to do it.

 

[172driver]

Agreed completely. I do want to get out of here but...i love instructing and will come back to it. I definitely give it my best effort. Hopefully, when I come back, it will be in the Part 61 world. It's the bureaucracy of 141 that makes instructing tough.

Yes, we fly in IMC, no GPS, no autopilot. Just a couple VOR's and an ADF, sometimes DME. How ridiculous would that be if we didn't...I would leave that school in a hurry. Nor would I ever sign anyone off who's never seen the inside of a cloud. At least I wouldn't sign them off with much confidence. The hood is hardly a substitute as you know.

Not much IFR outside of training, though I don't see much difference. An instrument X-C is the same as real life IFR flying and is MUCH easier than the training environment where we'll shoot 4 approaches in 1.5 hrs. That's tough. In real life you have 1.5+ just to set up for the one approach you're going to shoot. You're right though, it is experience that counts, and I'm working on it. I'm sure I could learn much from you and you a little from me. Good luck with your school. Sounds like a great idea and it will be fun to drive the little planes again with students, I'm sure.

 

[PilotOnTheRise]

Actually, that is exactly what my instructor charges, with the plane, $80 per hour. And I said $20K minus the multi engine rating. However, I know of a place, that was recommended to me by another instructor where I can get my ME for a very cheap price as well. I realize that there are extra costs to add in there, however, I want spend more than $25K for my ratings .... the prices where I live are very cheap for flying ... you would be surprised!

Also, my instructor owns a complex airplane in which I can get my commercial and for a cheaper price than probably any complex even in my area for rent. My instructor is not with an FBO and neither are the planes for rent ... he is free lance and the planes are owned by a guy who is a free lance instructor, but also rents the planes to pilots.

FSI is a very good school. Like I said .. everything I quoted that I felt like was a rip off, was direct off of one of their brochures I was sent. Maybe it was an out dated or messed up brochure, but it says right there that you may $1500 to play 27hrs on FlightSim, among other expenses that are ridiculous. If someone is wanting to go to a 141 school, by all means go to FSI, probably the best, but from what Ive heard/read, its not all it is said to be, but maybe I am hearing/reading wrong.

 

[Chunk]

If someone is wanting to go to a 141 school, by all means go to FSI, probably the best, but from what Ive heard/read, its not all it is said to be, but maybe I am hearing/reading wrong.

What have you heard, and from what source?

Chunk