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Flight Safety Academy
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From personal experience I can tell you youre making the right choice staying away from DCA. They'll take lots of your money while they have you bend over ... and won't even give you the courtesy of a reach-around!
Flight Safety, don't know. But they stopped answering my emails when I started asking the hard questions.
The best advice I can offer is stay away from the license mills, get your ratings, build time. make contacts.
The guaranteed interview is the biggest scam going right now until hiring picks up.
Good Luck
Flight Safety, don't know. But they stopped answering my emails when I started asking the hard questions.
The best advice I can offer is stay away from the license mills, get your ratings, build time. make contacts.
The guaranteed interview is the biggest scam going right now until hiring picks up.
Good Luck
bobbysamd
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Another lengthy, boring bobbysamd FlightSafety post . .
Apologies to those who've read my previous FSI postings, so please bear with me regarding this new query.
I was a flight instructor at FlightSafety Academy in Vero in 1991-92. I realize that is several years ago and things might change, but I've had contact with one or two people who are still there and I've heard from members of this board who are FSI students, so I'm confident in the accuracy of my comments.
The main program trains students in about six-seven months for their Commercial-Instrument-Multiengine certificates and ratings. I am happy to vouch for the program's quality. The ground school is adequate and the flight training is high quality. FSI is the only program of which I am aware that provides acro, spins and unusual attitudes training as an integral part of the course. That, in and of itself, is extremely valuable training because it gives one confidence in being able to deal with unexpected attitudes.
The facilities are excellent and the equipment is plentiful and extremely well maintained. I understand that FSI has been acquiring one new Seminole a month for the past one-and-a-half years. Having plenty of airplanes is important because it provides at least some assurance that your flights will take place as planned. I worked in another school where there were never enough airplanes. As a result, I had trouble scheduling my students consistently, which impeded their progress (and diminished my paycheck!).
FlightSafety is an intense program. You will have to attend class, study, be prepared for every activity, and be expected to keep up - which is a major reason why the program works. Don't expect it to be a day at the beach (although the beach is just past the bridges). In other words, the place is a school, just as if you were going to high school, college or a vo-tech, and you have to approach your training as such.
The basic program ain't cheap, at $44K+, and that's the minimum. Most students usually pay more because they often need extra training. That's no reflection on their ability; every student has strengths and weaknesses. You will pay extra for your Commercial Single and CFI ratings, if you choose to get them at FSI, which leads me to my final point.
FlightSafety offers its grads a chance to work there as instructors. That's an important consideration, for any school. However, I understand that currently there's a six-month waiting list for in-house hires at FSI. That could change overnight if the regionals pick up a bunch of instructors. In that regard, FSI likes to talk up its connections with the regionals.
From an employee's point of view, I did not see eye to eye with the managers and how the place treated instructors when I was there. However, I can vouch for three of the people who are now running the place as being first-class individuals.
Hope this helps. Good luck with wherever you decide to train.
Apologies to those who've read my previous FSI postings, so please bear with me regarding this new query.
I was a flight instructor at FlightSafety Academy in Vero in 1991-92. I realize that is several years ago and things might change, but I've had contact with one or two people who are still there and I've heard from members of this board who are FSI students, so I'm confident in the accuracy of my comments.
The main program trains students in about six-seven months for their Commercial-Instrument-Multiengine certificates and ratings. I am happy to vouch for the program's quality. The ground school is adequate and the flight training is high quality. FSI is the only program of which I am aware that provides acro, spins and unusual attitudes training as an integral part of the course. That, in and of itself, is extremely valuable training because it gives one confidence in being able to deal with unexpected attitudes.
The facilities are excellent and the equipment is plentiful and extremely well maintained. I understand that FSI has been acquiring one new Seminole a month for the past one-and-a-half years. Having plenty of airplanes is important because it provides at least some assurance that your flights will take place as planned. I worked in another school where there were never enough airplanes. As a result, I had trouble scheduling my students consistently, which impeded their progress (and diminished my paycheck!).
FlightSafety is an intense program. You will have to attend class, study, be prepared for every activity, and be expected to keep up - which is a major reason why the program works. Don't expect it to be a day at the beach (although the beach is just past the bridges). In other words, the place is a school, just as if you were going to high school, college or a vo-tech, and you have to approach your training as such.
The basic program ain't cheap, at $44K+, and that's the minimum. Most students usually pay more because they often need extra training. That's no reflection on their ability; every student has strengths and weaknesses. You will pay extra for your Commercial Single and CFI ratings, if you choose to get them at FSI, which leads me to my final point.
FlightSafety offers its grads a chance to work there as instructors. That's an important consideration, for any school. However, I understand that currently there's a six-month waiting list for in-house hires at FSI. That could change overnight if the regionals pick up a bunch of instructors. In that regard, FSI likes to talk up its connections with the regionals.
From an employee's point of view, I did not see eye to eye with the managers and how the place treated instructors when I was there. However, I can vouch for three of the people who are now running the place as being first-class individuals.
Hope this helps. Good luck with wherever you decide to train.
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Ace757
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PennEagle
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OK Hoss, let's address some issues here without the sugar on top:
First and foremost, without a good and competent instructor all is lost. It does'nt matter that FSI has a new PA44 delivered to the property each month, nor does is matter how much they emphasize checklists or how many shiny adds they place in FLYING Magazine. You must have a good instructor, so make sure you get one!
I should know- I graduated from the CIME program at FSI and my instructor was unequivocally the worst ever. I did not realize this until I started teaching and saw how limited my BASIC ground knowledge was in every aspect - It was a miracle I passed my rides the first time out, let alone at all. I was not a student who had to be spoonfed either - I studied hard and was prepared for every lesson (so I thought).
Secondly, FSI will not help you get a job doing jack without a pricetag attached, usually a big one. The best place to network is a busy FBO (MillionAir, Signature, Mercury, etc.), not Vero Beach. Have you been to Vero Beach? C'mon, man! FSI and Jay Elder will also advertise ASA's flowthrough program, which is a joke and an expensive one (look to cough up an ADDITIONAL $40,000 on top of the first $40,000 you spend) at that.
ASA has some of the biggest hacks in the industry currently flying for them as a result of this wonderful program. A 220-275 hour newly minted commercial pilot has no business in the right seat of a CRJ, nor anything else that has paying customers behind them. Again, a joke and one that I personally witnessed. In fact, my opinion of ASA went in the crapper after who I saw pass the interview and be accepted into the program. Do you have a heartbeat and cash? Welcome to ASA.
Bottom line, there is no easy way. It is a long hard road any way you look at it. Getting your ratings, teaching, flying boxes through cruddy weather. Have a good attitude and watch out for those in this business who don't - they are plentiful.
If whoever is teaching you does not share in the following attitude, get a new one. Your CFI has to be patient enough to remember when he/she could not do what they are trying to teach you. Good luck!
First and foremost, without a good and competent instructor all is lost. It does'nt matter that FSI has a new PA44 delivered to the property each month, nor does is matter how much they emphasize checklists or how many shiny adds they place in FLYING Magazine. You must have a good instructor, so make sure you get one!
I should know- I graduated from the CIME program at FSI and my instructor was unequivocally the worst ever. I did not realize this until I started teaching and saw how limited my BASIC ground knowledge was in every aspect - It was a miracle I passed my rides the first time out, let alone at all. I was not a student who had to be spoonfed either - I studied hard and was prepared for every lesson (so I thought).
Secondly, FSI will not help you get a job doing jack without a pricetag attached, usually a big one. The best place to network is a busy FBO (MillionAir, Signature, Mercury, etc.), not Vero Beach. Have you been to Vero Beach? C'mon, man! FSI and Jay Elder will also advertise ASA's flowthrough program, which is a joke and an expensive one (look to cough up an ADDITIONAL $40,000 on top of the first $40,000 you spend) at that.
ASA has some of the biggest hacks in the industry currently flying for them as a result of this wonderful program. A 220-275 hour newly minted commercial pilot has no business in the right seat of a CRJ, nor anything else that has paying customers behind them. Again, a joke and one that I personally witnessed. In fact, my opinion of ASA went in the crapper after who I saw pass the interview and be accepted into the program. Do you have a heartbeat and cash? Welcome to ASA.
Bottom line, there is no easy way. It is a long hard road any way you look at it. Getting your ratings, teaching, flying boxes through cruddy weather. Have a good attitude and watch out for those in this business who don't - they are plentiful.
If whoever is teaching you does not share in the following attitude, get a new one. Your CFI has to be patient enough to remember when he/she could not do what they are trying to teach you. Good luck!
bobbysamd
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FSI
So, how come you didn't address your concerns with the Student Counselor? By the time you passed your Private any realization that you did not know enough should have been apparent and you could have had an instructor change.
I have written repeatedly that FSI ground school, as I recall it, was "adequate." Enough to provide a foundation upon which to build.
Well, maybe things have changed. When I was at FSI the ASA program required one to put in time instructing before the "conditional offer of employment" was fulfilled. So, these individuals would have had closer to 1200 hours before they went to ASA.
I had a student, who was one of my best CFI students ever, go that route. I should mention that he put in plenty of time in Scheduling and Dispatch long before he sat down in the right seat of a Cadet.
I never said that FSI is perfect. No flight school is perfect. And, yes indeed, you need a good instructor. But FSI still provides a fine training experience, name recognition and opportunities to succeed thereafter.
Torey15 said:
So, how come you didn't address your concerns with the Student Counselor? By the time you passed your Private any realization that you did not know enough should have been apparent and you could have had an instructor change.
I gather that you earned your CFI at FSI. I recall that you had to know your stuff because the DE(s) were tough.
I have written repeatedly that FSI ground school, as I recall it, was "adequate." Enough to provide a foundation upon which to build.
(emphasis added)
Well, maybe things have changed. When I was at FSI the ASA program required one to put in time instructing before the "conditional offer of employment" was fulfilled. So, these individuals would have had closer to 1200 hours before they went to ASA.
I had a student, who was one of my best CFI students ever, go that route. I should mention that he put in plenty of time in Scheduling and Dispatch long before he sat down in the right seat of a Cadet.
I never said that FSI is perfect. No flight school is perfect. And, yes indeed, you need a good instructor. But FSI still provides a fine training experience, name recognition and opportunities to succeed thereafter.
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Bobbysamd,
I understand your point about getting a new instructor, but as a very young pilot, I did not know what I was missing until the completion of my training and transition into the CFI role. Again, I studied very hard and was at the time I thought a very capable student pilot-Wrong. Additionally, getting a multi engine license and an entire rating (instrument) in the twin dictates that the CFI be sharp. Who I am to tell the CFI he does'nt know what he is doing during training for the two most important ratings of all?
Furthermore, alot of what you stated about those sitting in the fishbowl as we called (management) it, is factual. So many of the CFI's were constantly upset at the higher ups that morale among the instructors was terribly low. I have never in my life heard more complaining from a group of people. Maybe it was justified - I do not know. That attitude however permeated into the teaching and was/is unacceptable. Students deserve better, especially with that kind of financial commitment to the institution.
All my comments about ASA are truthful. To this day, if I saw one of those guys sitting in the right seat, I would do a 180 back up the jetway and wait for another flight. I know that does not reflect the capabilities of the ASA pilot group as a whole, but it did cloud my opinion of the organization at the time, besides the whole PFT deal, which is another thread for another day.
Overall, it does provide a good base for the fledgling pilot, but I just want people to understand that the FSI Academy pedigree does not carry any weight in today's industry, nor does it guarantee a stellar flying education.
I understand your point about getting a new instructor, but as a very young pilot, I did not know what I was missing until the completion of my training and transition into the CFI role. Again, I studied very hard and was at the time I thought a very capable student pilot-Wrong. Additionally, getting a multi engine license and an entire rating (instrument) in the twin dictates that the CFI be sharp. Who I am to tell the CFI he does'nt know what he is doing during training for the two most important ratings of all?
Furthermore, alot of what you stated about those sitting in the fishbowl as we called (management) it, is factual. So many of the CFI's were constantly upset at the higher ups that morale among the instructors was terribly low. I have never in my life heard more complaining from a group of people. Maybe it was justified - I do not know. That attitude however permeated into the teaching and was/is unacceptable. Students deserve better, especially with that kind of financial commitment to the institution.
All my comments about ASA are truthful. To this day, if I saw one of those guys sitting in the right seat, I would do a 180 back up the jetway and wait for another flight. I know that does not reflect the capabilities of the ASA pilot group as a whole, but it did cloud my opinion of the organization at the time, besides the whole PFT deal, which is another thread for another day.
Overall, it does provide a good base for the fledgling pilot, but I just want people to understand that the FSI Academy pedigree does not carry any weight in today's industry, nor does it guarantee a stellar flying education.
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huncowboy
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bobbysamd
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The more things change, the more they stay the same
(As it turned out, the aforementioned Chief Pilot was gone about two months after he took salaries away from instructors who were receiving them, including me, put them on flight tags, and docked their paychecks to make up the difference. I was in the process of lining up a new job and was on my way out. I gave notice. One instructor was so fed up that he left his keys and walked out immediately.)
I didn't leave there after only a year for no reason - and my job-hunting efforts had started long before then - like a month after I was hired. It's pretty sad if you feel driven to look for another job after only a month and having moved two thousand miles.
There were still many positives about the place - such as good facilities and equipment. And good flight training. Once again, after having worked at FSI, ERAU and Mesa and having interviewed with and/or being associated with others, I can tell you that no flight school is perfect. As well as being pilot factories, flight schools are nonsense factories. I always advise people to talk to students and instructors at a school before making a decision. Don't speak only to the ones arrayed by the salesmen. Talk to others. The unvarnished truth should come out.
Good discussion. Anyone who has been reading this thread should be helped by hearing all sides.
They still call it the fishbowl, eh? The morale among instructors was bad in 1992. I remember well standing outside of the Chief Pilot, Mr. B's, office for hours at a time waiting for a moment of his time. His plate-glass door was always shut tight as he proceded to ignore me. That kind of nonsense grinds at you - and it's that kind of grinding that causes people to leave. But they didn't care, apparently.Torey15 said:
(As it turned out, the aforementioned Chief Pilot was gone about two months after he took salaries away from instructors who were receiving them, including me, put them on flight tags, and docked their paychecks to make up the difference. I was in the process of lining up a new job and was on my way out. I gave notice. One instructor was so fed up that he left his keys and walked out immediately.)
I didn't leave there after only a year for no reason - and my job-hunting efforts had started long before then - like a month after I was hired. It's pretty sad if you feel driven to look for another job after only a month and having moved two thousand miles.
Yes, they do. But, at all times, when I was with my students, they had 100% of my attention. I'm sorry to hear that the immaturity factor at FSI is still there.
There were still many positives about the place - such as good facilities and equipment. And good flight training. Once again, after having worked at FSI, ERAU and Mesa and having interviewed with and/or being associated with others, I can tell you that no flight school is perfect. As well as being pilot factories, flight schools are nonsense factories. I always advise people to talk to students and instructors at a school before making a decision. Don't speak only to the ones arrayed by the salesmen. Talk to others. The unvarnished truth should come out.
Good discussion. Anyone who has been reading this thread should be helped by hearing all sides.
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Torey sound's like one of the 1% people. You know the guy that has trouble with the program and blame's other people. And to top it off ASA has the fore sight not to hire him. Maybe it's time to look in the mirror. I know all the people around me loved the school and are doing great even some at ASA.
Whatever Potsy-made it through the entire program in five months without repeating a lesson, busting a ride or a stage check - virtually on my own.
Man, that interview for the brand new CIME FSI Academy grad is difficult - let me stick this mirror underneath your nose and ask you a couple of very serious situational awareness questions that really make applicants think hard like, "Have you ever killed anyone?" Well, what do you know, this guy is breathing and look, he's never been convicted of a felony, lets invite him to Atlanta.
Oh, by the way, there will not be a sim session during this interview to assess your IFR abilities. We will do that with 30 hours in the Seneca, plus time in each seat of the Saab 2000. We will make sure an instructor is with you at all times - we really do not care to see if you can think on your own. Don't forget, that FSI needs a big check from you before you can start - please pay for your job, I mean pay on your way out.
I chose not to be a part of that on my own accord. So take that one percent of yours and have a Merry Christmas.
Man, that interview for the brand new CIME FSI Academy grad is difficult - let me stick this mirror underneath your nose and ask you a couple of very serious situational awareness questions that really make applicants think hard like, "Have you ever killed anyone?" Well, what do you know, this guy is breathing and look, he's never been convicted of a felony, lets invite him to Atlanta.
Oh, by the way, there will not be a sim session during this interview to assess your IFR abilities. We will do that with 30 hours in the Seneca, plus time in each seat of the Saab 2000. We will make sure an instructor is with you at all times - we really do not care to see if you can think on your own. Don't forget, that FSI needs a big check from you before you can start - please pay for your job, I mean pay on your way out.
I chose not to be a part of that on my own accord. So take that one percent of yours and have a Merry Christmas.
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DCA
For what it's worth, I attended DCA (then Comair Academy) from 2000 to 2001. I was fresh out of highschool, and had been impressed with the glossy ads, and the free visit down there. While this isn't directly FSI related, I think it's a good idea to get a fair idea what is out there.
Pros
The training was excellent, the instructors knowlegable and were always willing to put in the free ground instruction because they knew just how much everyone was paying. Instructors were instructors - some lacked in some areas, some were excellent in others. I came in with my PPL from a P61 school, and completed my Instrument, Com/SE and CFI. I was always impressed with the quality of training and the "airline style" environment was an excellent foundation to my cockpit habits.
Cons
It was expensive. Per hour was more than your P61 FBO and the rigid P141 program did not lead to cost-saving flexibility. The aircraft were by no means pigs, but were not even close to state of the art. There was always a period during my Instrument and Com/SE where there was a shortage of aircraft, in one case going 6 days without flying. After living expenses, those 6 days add up. You get what you pay for, obviously, and I doubt I could have gone through my training as fast or with such regimented standards as I'd gone through.
Oh ya, living in Sanford sucks a$$, especially for a 19 year old!
Epilogue
I never did my CFII, nor applied to instruct at Comair, as I intended to go to school to get my BA (which I've finished 2 of 4 years currently). I currently instruct during my summers with my Comair CFI in a small town P61 operator. I would not have been able to competently handle the responsiblity and open standards had I not come from a P141 school, BUT I cannot see how CFIs in P141 schools learn how to make decisions as one does in a P61 environment, as there is zero flexibility to tailor flights to specific student problems.
Based on my experience, combining P61 decision making and 141 discipline is the way to go, but that's just me. To each unto their own.
First post, woo-hoo!
For what it's worth, I attended DCA (then Comair Academy) from 2000 to 2001. I was fresh out of highschool, and had been impressed with the glossy ads, and the free visit down there. While this isn't directly FSI related, I think it's a good idea to get a fair idea what is out there.
Pros
The training was excellent, the instructors knowlegable and were always willing to put in the free ground instruction because they knew just how much everyone was paying. Instructors were instructors - some lacked in some areas, some were excellent in others. I came in with my PPL from a P61 school, and completed my Instrument, Com/SE and CFI. I was always impressed with the quality of training and the "airline style" environment was an excellent foundation to my cockpit habits.
Cons
It was expensive. Per hour was more than your P61 FBO and the rigid P141 program did not lead to cost-saving flexibility. The aircraft were by no means pigs, but were not even close to state of the art. There was always a period during my Instrument and Com/SE where there was a shortage of aircraft, in one case going 6 days without flying. After living expenses, those 6 days add up. You get what you pay for, obviously, and I doubt I could have gone through my training as fast or with such regimented standards as I'd gone through.
Oh ya, living in Sanford sucks a$$, especially for a 19 year old!
Epilogue
I never did my CFII, nor applied to instruct at Comair, as I intended to go to school to get my BA (which I've finished 2 of 4 years currently). I currently instruct during my summers with my Comair CFI in a small town P61 operator. I would not have been able to competently handle the responsiblity and open standards had I not come from a P141 school, BUT I cannot see how CFIs in P141 schools learn how to make decisions as one does in a P61 environment, as there is zero flexibility to tailor flights to specific student problems.
Based on my experience, combining P61 decision making and 141 discipline is the way to go, but that's just me. To each unto their own.
First post, woo-hoo!
a few comments and corrections...
For the most part, I'd agree with bobbysamd regarding FSI. I attended from '96-'98, going in with my Private and about 75 hours. I haven't been back since nor do I have much contact with anyone there, so I can't say how much has really changed. When I was there however, the facilities and equipment were excellent. You could count on properly maintained aircraft and rooms to use for study. Of course, as Torey mentioned, your instructor will dictate your experience more than any other factor. If you're not getting what you pay for, speak up and get a new one. That's true of all flight schools however, it's not particular to FSI. The training will prepare you well for 121-type operations, so if that's your goal, you should look seriously at FSI. It's true that some of the attitudes that prevail from the higher-ups do make life difficult, especially when you become an instructor. It's just a fact, take it or leave it. Everyone responds to different things, but if you're looking for good training, you could do a lot worse than FSI. It's also true that you shouldn't go because of the "guaranteed interview", "fast-track", "job placement" or whatever they're advertising these days. You may have some advantages being an FSI alum, but you can only count on yourself.
I have to take exception to a few other comments made by Torey however...
Unless you've worked at ASA for any length of time, I don't think you're in a position to judge either the quality of our pilots or the accuracy of your own statement. I understand that you're way over-generalizing and you said later than you didn't mean it to reflect on the entire group, but how can it not? I will be the first to agree that we do have some huge tools flying for us, but out of all of them, only a very few are FSI grads. I too must be a hack in your eyes since I came to ASA with low time. Like bobbysamd said, most of the FSI folks came to ASA with quite a bit more than 200-250hours. Those folks all came from another school up the coast a little ways. Yes we do have some people that should have never made it to a 121 operator, but so does every other airline. While there's no substitute for experience, there is also no substitute for personal preparation. Give people some credit, a lot of guys/gals come out of FSI very well-prepared for the experience they'll have in their next job.
For the most part, I'd agree with bobbysamd regarding FSI. I attended from '96-'98, going in with my Private and about 75 hours. I haven't been back since nor do I have much contact with anyone there, so I can't say how much has really changed. When I was there however, the facilities and equipment were excellent. You could count on properly maintained aircraft and rooms to use for study. Of course, as Torey mentioned, your instructor will dictate your experience more than any other factor. If you're not getting what you pay for, speak up and get a new one. That's true of all flight schools however, it's not particular to FSI. The training will prepare you well for 121-type operations, so if that's your goal, you should look seriously at FSI. It's true that some of the attitudes that prevail from the higher-ups do make life difficult, especially when you become an instructor. It's just a fact, take it or leave it. Everyone responds to different things, but if you're looking for good training, you could do a lot worse than FSI. It's also true that you shouldn't go because of the "guaranteed interview", "fast-track", "job placement" or whatever they're advertising these days. You may have some advantages being an FSI alum, but you can only count on yourself.
I have to take exception to a few other comments made by Torey however...
Unless you've worked at ASA for any length of time, I don't think you're in a position to judge either the quality of our pilots or the accuracy of your own statement. I understand that you're way over-generalizing and you said later than you didn't mean it to reflect on the entire group, but how can it not? I will be the first to agree that we do have some huge tools flying for us, but out of all of them, only a very few are FSI grads. I too must be a hack in your eyes since I came to ASA with low time. Like bobbysamd said, most of the FSI folks came to ASA with quite a bit more than 200-250hours. Those folks all came from another school up the coast a little ways. Yes we do have some people that should have never made it to a 121 operator, but so does every other airline. While there's no substitute for experience, there is also no substitute for personal preparation. Give people some credit, a lot of guys/gals come out of FSI very well-prepared for the experience they'll have in their next job.
bobbysamd
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Training programs in general
This is a general comment about all schools, and is geared especially for those who believe they were ill prepared after finishing training.
A training program is designed to lay a solid foundation for and equip you with the basic skills needed to do your job. No training program can equip you beyond that level. After completing training, it is experience that, hopefully, improves your knowledge and hones your skills. The old expression, experience is the best teacher, holds true. Just as the caption under the picture in the FOI notes, an instructor cannot open up the head of his/her trainee and pour in experience; experience must be obtained.
I make these comments after re-reading Torey's FSI training experience. The thing that keeps coming back is the fact that he obviously passed his practical exams. I'm assuming that FSI still had 141 self-examining authority when he was there; we had just obtained it while I was there in 1991-92. While some would argue that self-examining authority erodes or compromises the quality of training, he still had to demonstrate a minimum level of competence to receive his tickets, i.e. sufficient proficiency and knowledge to exercise the privileges granted to him. Not necessarily "outstanding" or "Ph.D" proficiency and knowledge.
(Situations where 141 self-examining authority has compromised or eroded training quality are those when higher-ups order stage check pilots to pass certain people and/or where the higher-ups are paranoid and frightened that they will lose self-examining because they feel too many students are busting. See, e.g., the recent American Flyers situation in Chicago.)
Now, if he felt inadequate to instruct after earning his CFI at FSI, I would note again that any training program equips you with the basic skills needed to do your job. A CFI really does learn on the job. That's why instructing is such a valuable learning experience - for the instructor. To this day, it still blows my mind how much I learned as a flight instructor.
Absolutely your instructor dictates your training experience, but your wet certificates prove that you have met at least a minimum standard. It is then up to you to take what you've learned and run with it.
This is a general comment about all schools, and is geared especially for those who believe they were ill prepared after finishing training.
A training program is designed to lay a solid foundation for and equip you with the basic skills needed to do your job. No training program can equip you beyond that level. After completing training, it is experience that, hopefully, improves your knowledge and hones your skills. The old expression, experience is the best teacher, holds true. Just as the caption under the picture in the FOI notes, an instructor cannot open up the head of his/her trainee and pour in experience; experience must be obtained.
I make these comments after re-reading Torey's FSI training experience. The thing that keeps coming back is the fact that he obviously passed his practical exams. I'm assuming that FSI still had 141 self-examining authority when he was there; we had just obtained it while I was there in 1991-92. While some would argue that self-examining authority erodes or compromises the quality of training, he still had to demonstrate a minimum level of competence to receive his tickets, i.e. sufficient proficiency and knowledge to exercise the privileges granted to him. Not necessarily "outstanding" or "Ph.D" proficiency and knowledge.
(Situations where 141 self-examining authority has compromised or eroded training quality are those when higher-ups order stage check pilots to pass certain people and/or where the higher-ups are paranoid and frightened that they will lose self-examining because they feel too many students are busting. See, e.g., the recent American Flyers situation in Chicago.)
Now, if he felt inadequate to instruct after earning his CFI at FSI, I would note again that any training program equips you with the basic skills needed to do your job. A CFI really does learn on the job. That's why instructing is such a valuable learning experience - for the instructor. To this day, it still blows my mind how much I learned as a flight instructor.
Absolutely your instructor dictates your training experience, but your wet certificates prove that you have met at least a minimum standard. It is then up to you to take what you've learned and run with it.
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phishn@daves
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Hey Bobby!!!
I always know when I see your name under training it's going to be about FSI.
It just cracks me up that's all!!
I went there too in 1998! I also agree it has some of the best training, with the amount of a/c alone I was flying sometimes three times a day. The point being, that's all I was doing, flying and hanging around people who were flying, I did my PVT, COMM, SE, ME, Instr., there in under 6 mos.
I left there and felt very confident about my flying skills, of course all that has gone to Sh!t now that I have been gone for a number of years, but at the time I was very comfortable. Whichever flight school you choose, try to fly as much as possible and ask questions, talk to different instructors and students while you are there, everyone's experience is different, and you'll save a lot of money.
Good Luck and Fly safe!
I always know when I see your name under training it's going to be about FSI.
It just cracks me up that's all!!
I went there too in 1998! I also agree it has some of the best training, with the amount of a/c alone I was flying sometimes three times a day. The point being, that's all I was doing, flying and hanging around people who were flying, I did my PVT, COMM, SE, ME, Instr., there in under 6 mos.
I left there and felt very confident about my flying skills, of course all that has gone to Sh!t now that I have been gone for a number of years, but at the time I was very comfortable. Whichever flight school you choose, try to fly as much as possible and ask questions, talk to different instructors and students while you are there, everyone's experience is different, and you'll save a lot of money.
Good Luck and Fly safe!
nosehair
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It's really sad that there is so much community agreement among instructors about how RIGID & INFLEXIBLE the 141 programs in these "Pilot Mills" are.
They don't have to be that way. Poor pilot training management and ill-prepared, inexperienced instructors make them seem that way. Pilot schools with 141 programs can be flexible and conform to the needs of the student. As a matter of fact, that is the way they are supposed to be. The FOI teaces that.
We (CFI's) should be screaming about these schools rigid adherance to a training outline that does not recognize the uniqueness of each individual student. Learning cannot occur unless the student is receptive. You can't make a person learn.
They don't have to be that way. Poor pilot training management and ill-prepared, inexperienced instructors make them seem that way. Pilot schools with 141 programs can be flexible and conform to the needs of the student. As a matter of fact, that is the way they are supposed to be. The FOI teaces that.
We (CFI's) should be screaming about these schools rigid adherance to a training outline that does not recognize the uniqueness of each individual student. Learning cannot occur unless the student is receptive. You can't make a person learn.
bobbysamd
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FSI
By the way, according to this article in the Treasure Coast Business Journal (correction), FSI recently won the Excellence in Pilot Training Award from NATA. The place must be doing something right.
Not always. I think I've put up more than my fair share of Mesa and Riddle posts on this forum as well as FSI.phishn@daves said:
This is an important point, and one $0.02 reason why I like flight schools. Their only purpose is to train pilots. The only reasons why people are there are to train pilots or be trained. It is a nourishing environment for all.
By the way, according to this article in the Treasure Coast Business Journal (correction), FSI recently won the Excellence in Pilot Training Award from NATA. The place must be doing something right.
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Started CIME program at FSI in Sept. 2001, graduated in April 2002. Very good school and facilities. I have no regrets attending there, eventhough I do not have a flying job now, it was great training (thanks to a great instructor). If you do attend I recommend getting hooked up with a crew partner. My crew partner and I flew together from day 1 and finished together and really made things easy. We blew away the classmates we started with time wise. When we finished our CIME program, our classmates were just getting into the middle of their instrument. Very helpful and beneficial.
Sorry to burst your bubble, nosehair, but the FAA are the ones that make a Part-141 program so rigid. It is designed with the purpose of training for a Certificate or Rating with the least amount of hours. A lot has to be covered in a short amount of time. In today’s flying environment, there is just too much information to cover. I would like to see the hour requirement increased for safety purposes.
nosehair
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No, CFI'er, the FAA does not tell you how to construct your program. As long as all 141 rules are complied with, it will be approved. You may experience some difficulty geting the approval from an Inspector who is not flight-training savvy, which most of them are not, but if you educate him/her/them, and it is clear that the basic outline in 141 is followed, you can write a very flexible program. Mine is.
jetalc
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sheps said:
That's what this discussion is about - not FlightSafety International, FlightSafety Academy in Vero Beach, FL.
I also went to FSI Academy/VRB, and found the training to be excellent. Yes, the procedures can be a bit demanding, but I wanted the structure of such a program. I ran out of money, and felt what it was like to instruct elsewhere - I quickly went back to FlightSafety and became an IP and eventually an Assistant Chief. Don't regret a day of it, and the training (and subsequent instructing there) forced me to show discipline in studying and make sure I knew what I was supposed to know in order to teach it to others. I would highly recommend FSI/VRB to anybody looking for a structured environment with a school that doesn't put up with slackers or those that aren't serious about flying for a living. FlightSafety and the "fish bowl" were responsible for kicking quite a few people out of the program who were either not cut out for flying or didn't take the program seriously. Kudos to them for that.
As for the "hacks" at ASA...pretty broad term. Something about glass houses...there are hacks at all airlines.
so Jetalc, how did you first get involved with Flight Safety, was it a word of mouth thing or were you just really impressed with what they told you? how do most students end up finding out one school is better than another and subsequently attending, because it seems like there are a hell of a lot of choices out there...
jetalc
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sheps said:
You're right - there were/are a ton of choices. Believe it or not, after my list of 100+ schools, I whittled it down to FSI, Comair Academy (now DCA) and a couple of other schools. The list was derived from word-of-mouth stuff as well as thumbing through flying magazines and looking at everybody's flashy little ads. When I got the list down to three schools, I sucked it up for a couple airline tickets and visited the schools. Was very impressed with Comair Academy, but more impressed with FSI. You could eat off of the maintenance hangar floor, and there was no hesitation when I asked to see the syllabus. The weather pretty much guaranteed that I could fly every day, and sometimes twice per day (for example, one dual, one solo). I didn't know at that point (I already had my PVT) what I was looking for in the syllabus, but it looked logical to me and the total package at FSI seemed like something that was right up my alley.
At that point, FSI was just starting the PFT thing with Chicago Express, ASA, ACA, and a couple others, but that's not why I enrolled. Never did do the PFT thing, although I do know quite a few people who did. It seemed like a good foundation for my flight training, and I don't believe I made a bad choice. Not every school is for every body, so make sure you shop around and look past the ads. Be VERY leary of all flight schools that have some sort of "informal arrangement" with airlines - aviation is a slippery business, and there are a lot of crooks that would LOVE to take your cashola. I found FlightSafety to be upfront, honest, high quality and tough. Would do it again in a heartbeat.
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