Flight Options

[matchthehatch]

Quote:

"so here goes: hire more friggin pilots so there is more flexability in the schedules, with more pilots you don't have to squeeze them for every available minute. Oh yeah, forgot to add... not much pressure on the company to do that if everyone is gonna work overtime though."

As long as these guys continue to work day upon day of overtime, mgmt. will not upgrade, nor hire sufficient pilots. I understand the need to make a little extra money to help out with expenses, but pilots should consider their fellow pilots on occasion.

 

[DesertFalcon]

Falcon,

I guess I should have been more clear. Knowing somebody there is not enough. Like Dr. B said, your freind has to "go to bat for you" if you want that interview. Good luck.

Frac...

Well, I guess it comes down to when you put down your reference, using the online application, will the friend concur with your reference to him/her?

In other words, will your reference really refer you to the job?

 

[Dep676]

I was just hired by Options, still in training.

You are asked to disclose where you want to domicile during the interview. To my knowledge there is not a 50 city list. The old criteria still applies, they want at least 3 airlines, and 6 daily departures. In addition, the domicile must be approved by the logistics department. You will know if your choice is approved before you are offered a job. They prefer the bigger cities for obvious reasons. Whoever that was that asked if Vegas applies, yes it does. I know because I have already been approved to relocate there from my current domicile - Dallas.

The contract is real, I believe that I was in one of the first classes to sign it. It is a very simple 1 year pro-rated $12,000 training contract. In my class, 2 went to Beechjet, 3 to CJ1. Seniority or experience in new class seemed to have nothing to do with it. I.E. oldest got CJ1. Pay first year regardless of aircraft is $34,00/year plus $8,100 in perdiem.

The key to getting an interview is having a friend who is willing to personally go to bat for you in the office with the people who are responsible for interviewing you.

Good Luck

I don't believe they are CJ1's. I think they are the original CJ's.

 

[Dr. B]

You are correct, they are CJ's my mistake.

 

[SheGaveMeClap]

I'm probably gonna get my weiner slapped for this, but it doesn't bother me.

To all of the Options guys that work overtime, just realize you aren't actually saving the world, like they lead you to believe. You are making it harder on yourselves and the rest of us. You might think you are doing the company a favor, but you are really screwing the rest of us. What we need is bodies and new airplanes, upgrades and new SICs. When you whores go out and work overtime, it makes the company more willing to offer it because of guys like you. They hire less, upgrade less, and make the rest of us work our a$$es off for 14 hours, 7 days of the tour.

I've run into guys on day nine and ten on the road, and generally end up pi$$ing them off when I tell them what I think of OT. That doesn't bother me, because you guys are making my life tougher on the road, and I'm going to let you know about it. Call me what you will, chew my tail out, my opinion won't change. And I think the majority of our guys feel the same way.

 

[kingtut]

Ot.

Not taking side here. Just the facts. OT is cheaper than hiring more pilots. Why, to hire and train a new SIC regardless of acft, 75 to 80K before he flies the first IOE leg. And then, there is the issue of benefits and company contributions.

You can pay a bunch of guys OT, almost two years worth at average Frac industry SIC pay, and still save money as a company. Do the math times ten or 20 new hires and there ya go.

The pilots are gonna do it and the company knowns it. Pilots, like everyone else can always use a littel boost in the check book.

Be pissed all ya like (I agree with ya BTW.) but its not going to change anytime soon. JET PASS, M Cards, Jet Cards, whatever. Standby.

 

[Dep676]

Not taking side here. Just the facts. OT is cheaper than hiring more pilots. Why, to hire and train a new SIC regardless of acft, 75 to 80K before he flies the first IOE leg. And then, there is the issue of benefits and company contributions.

You can pay a bunch of guys OT, almost two years worth at average Frac industry SIC pay, and still save money as a company. Do the math times ten or 20 new hires and there ya go.

The pilots are gonna do it and the company knowns it. Pilots, like everyone else can always use a littel boost in the check book.

Be pissed all ya like (I agree with ya BTW.) but its not going to change anytime soon. JET PASS, M Cards, Jet Cards, whatever. Standby.

Where do you get a figure like 75to 80K for training? They are going to send you to school for a type if you do not have one. If you do they are going to send you to recurrent. I would think at the most it would be 25k counting hotel, airlines and the type or recurrent. No where near 75 to 80k. Just do not see that adding up.

BTW I don't think any of should do OT either.

 

[matchthehatch]

Amen, brother.

I'm probably gonna get my weiner slapped for this, but it doesn't bother me.

To all of the Options guys that work overtime, just realize you aren't actually saving the world, like they lead you to believe. You are making it harder on yourselves and the rest of us. You might think you are doing the company a favor, but you are really screwing the rest of us. What we need is bodies and new airplanes, upgrades and new SICs. When you whores go out and work overtime, it makes the company more willing to offer it because of guys like you. They hire less, upgrade less, and make the rest of us work our a$$es off for 14 hours, 7 days of the tour.

I've run into guys on day nine and ten on the road, and generally end up pi$$ing them off when I tell them what I think of OT. That doesn't bother me, because you guys are making my life tougher on the road, and I'm going to let you know about it. Call me what you will, chew my tail out, my opinion won't change. And I think the majority of our guys feel the same way.

Amen to that brother. We need more guys like you (and me) with enough ba11s to educate the rest of the pilot group on the drawbacks to working so much OT.

 

[matchthehatch]

Not taking side here. Just the facts. OT is cheaper than hiring more pilots. Why, to hire and train a new SIC regardless of acft, 75 to 80K before he flies the first IOE leg. And then, there is the issue of benefits and company contributions.

You can pay a bunch of guys OT, almost two years worth at average Frac industry SIC pay, and still save money as a company. Do the math times ten or 20 new hires and there ya go.

The pilots are gonna do it and the company knowns it. Pilots, like everyone else can always use a littel boost in the check book.

Be pissed all ya like (I agree with ya BTW.) but its not going to change anytime soon. JET PASS, M Cards, Jet Cards, whatever. Standby.

Dude, you are totally missing the point. You are correct that the company saves a buttload of money by paying overtime as opposed to hiring more pilots. While I don't want to start an "us vs. them" war with management, I do believe that they would pay us in ears of corn and chickens if we would accept it. The point is this: Management will do whatever it takes to save money. Pilots who work overtime may be doing themselves and their wallets a favor, but they are doing the vast majority of us a great disservice. I realize, sadly, that we may never have a union on property, but I would like to see the pilots look out for each other BEFORE looking out for those in suits.

 

[Frac Daddy]

Dude, you are totally missing the point. You are correct that the company saves a buttload of money by paying overtime as opposed to hiring more pilots. While I don't want to start an "us vs. them" war with management, I do believe that they would pay us in ears of corn and chickens if we would accept it. The point is this: Management will do whatever it takes to save money. Pilots who work overtime may be doing themselves and their wallets a favor, but they are doing the vast majority of us a great disservice. I realize, sadly, that we may never have a union on property, but I would like to see the pilots look out for each other BEFORE looking out for those in suits.

I think you are missing the point. I don't go to work "for the vast majority of us". I work to support myself and my family. If I need or want to work a few OT days for extra money, so be it. You guys can "educate" me all you want, but I just don't care.

Also, if you think having a union will change things, you are wrong. I have a couple of friends that are at FedEx. Even though they are happy, there is not as much movement as they would like to see because a lot of the old guys are picking up a ton of OT to pad their pension when the retire. Again, even at a unionized company, most people do what is best for themselves.

 

[matchthehatch]

Also, if you think having a union will change things, you are wrong. I have a couple of friends that are at FedEx. Even though they are happy, there is not as much movement as they would like to see because a lot of the old guys are picking up a ton of OT to pad their pension when the retire. Again, even at a unionized company, most people do what is best for themselves.

Have you ever worked for a union company? Somehow I doubt it. I speak from experience. Unions are not always the best answer, but I'm starting to feel a Flight Options Pilots union would benefit us all.

I understand your desire to make a little extra money, however, more than 1 - 2 days a month is a bit over the top. You're screwing us all by working more than that.

 

[Frac Daddy]

So the point is you don't care about anyone but yourself? Got it now!

Gunfytr,

So...You never work overtime because it harms the junior pilots at your company? If so, you are a true martyr. If not, you are a hypocrite.

 

[Frac Daddy]

Have you ever worked for a union company? Somehow I doubt it. I speak from experience. Unions are not always the best answer, but I'm starting to feel a Flight Options Pilots union would benefit us all.

I understand your desire to make a little extra money, however, more than 1 - 2 days a month is a bit over the top. You're screwing us all by working more than that.

Well pal, I have worked for a union company. If you ever have, you would know that sometimes unions eat their young. I am not saying I am against a union at Options, but I think I am a little more realistic.

 

[matchthehatch]

Well pal, I have worked for a union company. If you ever have, you would know that sometimes unions eat their young. I am not saying I am against a union at Options, but I think I am a little more realistic.

I should have asked "Have you ever worked for a company with a decent union?" Mesa or whatever other weak union doesn't count. The fact that so many feel they need to work so many days of OT to make a decent living is proof of the fact that we are underpaid and overworked.

Just curious, what union did you belong to?

 

[SheGaveMeClap]

If I need or want to work a few OT days for extra money, so be it. You guys can "educate" me all you want, but I just don't care.

Also, if you think having a union will change things, you are wrong. I have a couple of friends that are at FedEx. Even though they are happy, there is not as much movement as they would like to see because a lot of the old guys are picking up a ton of OT to pad their pension when the retire. Again, even at a unionized company, most people do what is best for themselves.

Frac,

I don't see you as a company man, and typically I agree with what you post. However, we will agree to disagree on this matter. If all of our pilots refused OT, the company would be forced to upgrade people, and hire new people to fill those open slots. It's a fact. Everything is stagnant here right now. If you guys wouldn't work OT, there would be movement. By working OT, you are looking out for number one. Yeah, yeah, yeah, everyone needs some extra change. Guess what? You have a whole week off, find a part time job doing something different, not being a whore for Options. I'm gonna call a spade a spade, and it pi$$es me off to no end hearing about guys working days upon days of OT for "their own benefit." Well, it sucks because it fuks me and it fuks all of our other pilots out there busting our aces 14 hours, 7 days, and 16 hours on day eight. Rant over. Have a good weekend.

P.S. Let's not work overtime anymore!!!

 

[hawkercpt]

hate to agree with Frac Daddy

but I do.

"I think you are missing the point. I don't go to work "for the vast majority of us". I work to support myself and my family. If I need or want to work a few OT days for extra money, so be it. You guys can "educate" me all you want, but I just don't care."

I'm not in it for anyone but myself. Are you going to pay my bills? Send my kids to college? Pay for my families vacation? Support my family when the company drives it self out of business? Didn't think so.


"The fact that so many feel they need to work so many days of OT to make a decent living is proof of the fact that we are underpaid and overworked."

Where do you think that more money is coming from?

""Have you ever worked for a company with a decent union?" Mesa or whatever other weak union doesn't count.


How about your precious Teamsters? Yes I worked for a company with them. It was even a job where they at least had a clue what they were doing, not aviation and they were horrible.
Collect their percentage.
Protect the lazy.
Keep one hand in the company's pocket.

That pretty much sums up the experience I've had with them.

Why don't you ask the Netjet guys how much they love their teamsters. Haven't found one on the road thats too happy recently. Their 100% pay increase they were all bragging about aint gonna happen. How long has it been for them? If you really want to ruin someones day, the next time your in an FBO and you see a Netjet guy ask him/her how the contract is coming. The look on their face wil tell it all.

 

[matchthehatch]

How about your precious Teamsters? Yes I worked for a company with them. It was even a job where they at least had a clue what they were doing, not aviation and they were horrible.
Collect their percentage.
Protect the lazy.
Keep one hand in the company's pocket.

That pretty much sums up the experience I've had with them.

Why don't you ask the Netjet guys how much they love their teamsters. Haven't found one on the road thats too happy recently. Their 100% pay increase they were all bragging about aint gonna happen. How long has it been for them? If you really want to ruin someones day, the next time your in an FBO and you see a Netjet guy ask him/her how the contract is coming. The look on their face wil tell it all.

Ain't my union. Never mentioned anything about Teamsters. All of my prior union experiences (3-all ALPA) have been fantastic. Any union pilot will tell you that your union is only as good as the local leadership, not the national leadership. I'm sorry you belonged to a union with such crappy local leaders.

What happened to the recommendations from the pilot board? We didn't even get to find out what they were, much less hear of management's decisions regarding them! I'm sure we will get raises, after Netjets get theirs. The only reason we'll get them is because it will help retain pilots and minimize training costs of new pilots. If you think JH is looking out for us, you are wrong. He will only look out for us to the extent necessary to keep the crowd controlled. His job (as it should be) is to look out for the stockholders.

I don't necessarily think a union is the answer (and if it is, Teamsters isn't it), but some sort of group to unify the pilots is needed. My partner got a call from our PM last tour. A Challenger pilot whom he was hanging out with for several hours called our PM to tell him that my partner was not wearing a tie. This guy had hours to pull him aside and give him his thoughts on proper attire, but he went straight to the PM. That sort of thing doesn't happen at a company where the pilots are unified and looking out for one another. You can probably name several other similar examples.

I don't want to start a pi$$ing match with you or anyone else. These are simply the thoughts of one guy who works hard and is an outstanding employee who would like to see a few changes around here. I'm not asking for a 7/7 schedule, or 100% pay raise, just to be recognized and rewarded for giving more than half of my life to FO.

 

[Dep676]

Who gives a ratsa$$ if he was wearing a tie or not. Was he in front of customers or in the plane with pax's on board. If not then he does not need a tie on in my opinion. If he was sitting at the FBO waiting for pax it should not matter. As long as he is uniform when it comes time to play pilot for the customers. It just goes to show the PM's and APM's are not there for us. They are just management puppets.

 

[xrated]

When you say X bids, do you mean XP or Citation X?

 

[flyr4hire]

how come its always the CPTs

with the screw you, I'm working overtime attitude. Why, because the CPTs now "got theirs"... they upgraded when the upgrades were quick and never had to spend 3 years as a FO. . If you complain about not getting vacation and then work OT, your a dumbarse too. You and me clap, maybe we can shame one or two self serving, selfish, OT whores, but i feel it is a losing battle. Even some guys I've flown allot with who are supposed "friends", and give me the "tough luck man... thought you would have had your upgrade months ago" still thumb their noses by working OT to pay for the boat, or the second house, or for the next trip to Vegas. FO OT pay sucks if an FO is dumb enough to work it.

 

[dime line]

Dep676........
Who gives a ratsa$$ if he was wearing a tie or not. Was he in front of customers or in the plane with pax's on board. If not then he does not need a tie on in my opinion. If he was sitting at the FBO waiting for pax it should not matter. As long as he is uniform when it comes time to play pilot for the customers. It just goes to show the PM's and APM's are not there for us. They are just management puppets.Yesterday 12:57



You couldn't have said that any better!!!!!!!!!

 

[FracCapt]

When you say X bids, do you mean XP or Citation X?

Citation X. There are 2 or 3 PIC positions out for the X right now, plus another 2 or 3 SIC. At the same time the bids were issued, though, we got another email stating that the Citation X and Falcon 50 pay had been cut. It used to be the same as large cabin(CL601 and EMB135), but the PIC pay is now halfway between mid cabin(HS125, CE650) and large cabin...and the SIC pay is the same as mid cabin. Just another slap in the face.

 

[xrated]

Interesting. So that means Options pilots are finally going to be crewing the X's?

 

[Dep676]

Thor,

Yes things could be worse for me. I could be on the outside looking in. Better yet I could be upgraded like we were told when I got hired. They told us 18 to 24 months. Well it will be 24 months next month. It will at least another 12 months before I see the left seat of anything.

As far as working OT. Why don't you guys do contract work on your days off and make more money than working OT. Also at the same time you could be building a realtionship with a potential employer. Don't give me the sob story of we are not allowed to do contract work. There are plenty of guys that do it everyday that work at Options.

Yes we are going to crew the X's but as stated they changed the pay overnight on it.

 

[hawkercpt]

you guys

could always go work for the commuters for $23000/yr. Or some crooked 135 guy with a beeper on your hip. I know alot of guys/gals out there that would love to have 14 scheduled days off a month. Not to mention a decent salary. Notice I said decent not great.
Everyone wants more money, more time off ect. But you need to look at all of the facets of the job.
Is the f'n your getting worth the f'n your getting? If not, then it just might be time for you to move on.

 

[flyr4hire]

Thor

"Things are not standing still. Two PIC Bid to the legacy will equal opening in other fleets. A pic bid to the Challenger just awarded. Guy came from the XP Fleet = opening for XP captain. The X PIC Bids, TWO X SIC bids will be awarded and will make space. Accepting two new Beechjets per month = go figure"

Although there have been calls to bid (and awards) for the Legacy, Challenger, Falcon, and Hawker fleets, it has not rolled down hill for those of us who are waiting (still waiting) to upgrade in the small cabin programs. Getting new Beechjets at 2 a month... where's that come from?!? Since you know how many we are getting, you should know how many we are selling...how many are we selling off, I know of at least one sold last month? We have so many **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ed Beechjet cpts, and a few dumarse SICs, working overtime now that the company doesn't need to fill/doesn't need to be in a rush to fill the vacancies in the small cabins. Here's a line for you: I don't think you see the big picture... as a Hawker CPT, I doubt that you attempt to stay up to date about those behind you ie those waiting for a shot at the left seat in the CJ, V, and BE40... I would guess that all you look for is what seat you can fill next. I know that your contemporaries, guys like Hawker Cpt and frac daddy, don't give a rats arse about anything or anyone other than themselves, are you that different? The new super mid-sized pay scale sux, wondering how loud the guys that work OT and tell me to get over it will wail and will expect my support... AT LEAST IT IS THE COMPANY SCREWING THEM, NOT THEIR FELLOW PILOTS!!!

 

[Dep676]

thor,thor,thor

Man you are really busting the balls of people. Do you even work at Options?

No I did not make more at my last company. As I said in my post it could be worse for me. As far as upgrades. I would not call going from piston to turboprop to a jet an upgrade. I could have have a job flying jets a long time ago. However I did not want to move for that.

Now for upgrade to captain at Options. The economy was a lot worse when I got hired almost two years ago. The problem is that management is pi$$ing more than the pilots off. They are pi$$ing off the owners and they are leaving the program when their contracts are up.

You have been flying for 30 years? You really haven't flown much to only have 8000 hours in 30 years. I know flying for a living sucks. If I was in it for the money I would have quit a long time ago. It's people like you and others that will whore themselves for OT and low pay that make this industry suck.

 

[flyr4hire]

answer the question Thor

Still interested in where your info comes from that we are getting 2 beechjets a month. And bo, I didn't expect to sail right on up to CPT and make a mint, but I didn't expect to be a sic for so long, especially with what the upgrade was running when I was hired 2 1/2 years ago.

 

[flyr4hire]

Well Thor,

you got me then!

 

[Heavy Set]

Sorry to repeat this question if someone has already answered it. But did I read that the Citation X at FLOPS is opening up for FLOPS pilots vs. Swift pilots? Are there bids out for Capt and FO positions?

Will this airplane bid senior among the pilots at FLOPS or will people be primarily focused on getting into the Legacy (I hear that is pretty popular now)...