Flight Options Non-MIGS

[Starman]

and I am a member of a union, but not by choice.

You can always quit. In fact, please do. We have 495 union pilots that would love to come back.

 

[G4dude]

Who decides what is a benefit? This reads like '1984.' Hi there, Big Brother. Say, now that we're talking and all, two pilots who don't work at Flops, do you think that the majority should always have the right to tell the minority that they need to pay, even when it is for a fight that the minority does not agree with?

Do you have the right to tell others what is a 'benefit?' Even when they disagree?

What kills me about these arguments is that I am dead certain that most of you are staunch republicans. You believe in individual freedom, individual responsibility, until it comes to our jobs. Not just your job, but also your fellow pilot's job. Maybe even my job. Don't you see the hypocrisy? I mean, come on.

The union won. Flops is a closed shop. Now they are paying. Can't you be satisfied?

Great point! Union thugs are never happy, never satisfied, until they drive their employers out of business. Then they are still unhappy. They are clueless and childish and vindictive and relatively unproductive, the worst among us. I have been waiting for years to finally say these things. I have had enough of the intimidation and laziness and churlishness of rabid union types.

 

[G4dude]

Dime, You are a piece of sh!t for doing that to someone! The aviation community is a small one and your actions over this trivial gray area will be remembered if you blocked his attempts at employment.

Did you stop to think that perhaps the reason he was leaving Flops was to get away from the HARASSMENT and BULLSH!T you and your small group of buddies spread around?

Exactly! Dimeline makes my point every time he/she/it posts.

 

[G4dude]

You can always quit. In fact, please do. We have 495 union pilots that would love to come back.

My point made again, Starman, Thanks. I was coerced into joining a union in order to keep my job, and your response to my concern is to urge me to quit. My response to you is STOP FORCING other pilots to do what you want.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

Ghetto, You should have stayed down and quiet while you had the chance, but you don't know any better so every time you open your mouth on this issue, you just become a bigger ass than you already are.

The Pilots of Flight Options voted for representation under the promise that they would not have to pay dues till a contract was ratified. That vote was rushed prior to Bob T giving the pilots their 30% raise, a raise that would have been locked in with Status Quo. A vote was held by the entire membership of the 1108 and the members that voted voted to make dues for the Flight Options Pilots mandatory from Nov 2006 to be considered a MIG. This was a majority of those who voted, not a majority of the entire membership and not a Majority of the Flight Options Pilots. Most of the Flight Options Pilots did not even receive a ballot to vote in a timely fashion to even cast a vote so they did not even have a say in the matter.

For you and your group to now harass and intimidate the members on your list is revolting as there are 42 members on that list that would be signing for a pay cut if they paid the fees you claim they owe from a fraudulent vote, and you say that they are benefiting from the contract? There are members that are quitting here to get away from your harassment and intimidation and you sent your list to SWA and DAL to shotgun their attempt to get away from you?

You are an ass!

Nice with the name calling. Thats prime.

OK the pilots did vote in the IBT under the no dues premise but reality changed. The fact is that sustaining that position became politcally unattainable. Simply put the Netjets pilots did not want to and would not pay for our first contract. They voted the idea down. They had the right to. It was their money in the first place. What do you think the solution should have been after the Netjet pilots left the IBT? Where do you think the money should have come from to continue to negoitate? Really I would like an answer to that question.

As far as your dissatisfaction with the bylaws chage vote I don't recall hearing anyone at the time complaining about the ballots. If there was a real issue someone should have complained to the 1108 and if they didn't respond to the NMB. I know I got my ballot on time no problem. Even if the vote was flawed as you claim then why are the Flight Options pilots that today make up 100 percent of the 1108s membership not working to correct it? If the majority of the Flight Options pilots don't support the back dues then why are over 75% MIGS who have paid them? Logically all the evidence points to the position that the majority of the pilots today support the need to pay the dues from 11/06. In a republic the majority makes decisions for the entire group.

I like your theory on the "pay cut" that the pilots on the list would take by catching up with what they owe. So using the same logic If I quit paying my mortgage and the bank demands that I become current I should decline because it would be forcing me to take a pay cut?

As far as benefitting from the contract all pilots do. Did you like the out of senority lay off in 2008? Did you like the loss of benefits? Did you like the rolling duty clock? If the answer is no to any of these questions then you are benefitting from the contract in that it protects you from those things happening again.

Given your dislike of the union I find your next point very interesting. So you contend that the IBT should have sat on the cards and let the raise come then called for a vote to get staus quo? That doesn't even make sense if thats what your saying. Do you really beleive a raise was coming? If so why didn't they give it to us in the weeks or months prior while dissatifaction with the company was growing within the pilot group? If the company really didn't have time as you contend why did they not come to the negoitating table looking for a quick settlement instead of the foot dragging that occured for years? If they were really concerned about the well being, and happiness of the pilot group they would have done that. Instead they claimed that they couldn't even afford to continue paying us at the benefits levels that we had at the time. They drastically increased benefit costs and eliminated the 401k match to remain "competitive and viable." So which was it? Could they afford a raise as they claimed before the vote or could they not as they claimed after the vote? What evidence other than Bob Ts word is there that there was any intention of giving us a raise? I have never seen any.

It seems to me you want it both ways. You want the raise from the company and then status quo from the union to protect it. I assume you have piece of mind from the protections the contract gives you from pay cuts and work rule changes but you don't want to pay for the costs incurred in getting the contract. You want to not really be a member of this union but to be welcomed into a different unionized pilot group if it suits you.

If you wonder why the Options MIGS are not happy with non Migs let me explain it to you. The Migs to a person have sacrificed to support the union and gain a contract. They paid for it and non the non Migs are reaping the same benefits it even though they didn't contribute. Just because it fits within the letter of the law doesn't make it right or fair. If you think this is cool how about you work all month and then send me a portion of your paycheck? Its the same thing. If someone resents your actions and choices they are probably not going to be friendly to you.

If you wonder why other union groups would even care about a non MIGS at Options I'll explain it to you. Unions work on solidarity sometimes even in the face of self interest. If someone is so self interested that they will not pay up to become a MIGS at Options they will probably not stick with the union in the event of a legal job action. I don't want people in SWAPA that don't have the collective pilot groups back. If the people on the list don't like being pilots in a unionized work group they should seek work in a non union work group.

As far as me harrassing or intimidating anyone please explain to me how I am personally doing this. I don't work there anymore. The Options pilots I still communicate with are my friends who happen to all be MIGS. What group am I a member of? It must be a really well kept secret because even I don't know what it is.

 

[dime line]

Exactly! Dimeline makes my point every time he/she/it posts.

Yo G4 dude, you need to learn to read as well. Never did I say I brought that list to Delta.

 

[dime line]

But they are not seeking to intimidate and coerce you, but you intend to intimidate and coerce them. There is no moral equivalence here. Union thugs disgust me, and I am a member of a union, but not by choice. Shame on you.

where in there does it say "I intend to intimidate and coerce them"?

 

[hogbody]

G4dude said: "Great point! Union thugs are never happy, never satisfied, until they drive their employers out of business. Then they are still unhappy. They are clueless and childish and vindictive and relatively unproductive, the worst among us."

Really? Are you naive, illiterate or what? Open your eyes and look at the situation over at Flight Options. Some of these guys had 5 different CEO's in 10 years. Each broke the promises of those who came before. The pilot jobs at Flops eventually bore no resemblance to what was promised when the pilots were hired. It was always "go the extra mile for us today, and tomorrow we"ll xxxxxxx for you". But of course the tomorrows never came, and the pilot force was treated like a flock of terminally ignorant sheep. It became a management game to see how much they could get away with by dangling carrots in front of the pilots' noses. The "stupid" pilots must have been the butts of a lot of jokes in the board room.
When the pilot force began to seriously consider unionizing, the company didn't think it could ever happen. The pilots were just too "stupid" and too blindly loyal to their masters. Just to be sure, they hired the union busting firm of Ford and Harrison, who arrogantly boasted they had defeated unionization efforts in 33 of the last 34 cases. Management arrogance toward, and mistreatment of the pilot group continued unhindered. It must have shattered their huge egos the day the unionization vote succeeded by a very large majority. The pilots of Flight Options were finished with management's crap.
Fast forward to the present: The pilots negotiated a contract. They still don't have many of the things that were promised them over the years (pay equal to or better than Net Jets, 401k match, etc.) but they gained a lot. Most importantly they stopped the downward spiral. Every thing promised in the CBA is written in a legally enforceable document.
Now that the smoke has settled, the company is profitable, running more smoothly than ever, growing, and is beginning to bring back furloughed pilots. The relationship between the pilot group and management has never been better, and the pilots have never worked harder to help the company succeed.
Now G4dude, go back to the quote at the top, and tell me how anything you said has even one molecule of truth.
The End.

 

[Pervis]

My point made again, Starman, Thanks. I was coerced into joining a union in order to keep my job, and your response to my concern is to urge me to quit. My response to you is STOP FORCING other pilots to do what you want.

You were not coerced into anything. Nearly 3.5 years ago, before the economic collapse, the writing was on the wall regarding integration, yet you CHOSE to remain. When the final notice of integration was provided last year by the company, who provided you with all kinds of "promises", you CHOSE to remain. And you blame the union for those broken promises?

You speak of union thugs never happy, yet you seem to indicate your unhappiness more than most. Why don't you join your collegues in reasonable discussions in our PRIVATE environment rather than continue this bravado in public? You hold zero credibility here behind a false label.

No one is forcing anyone to do anything. When the democratic process is involved, the overall result is actually better than the dictatorial result, except for the "annointed ones". Your input here indicates exactly which group you fit into.

 

[1folinepilot]

Nice with the name calling. Thats prime.

OK the pilots did vote in the IBT under the no dues premise but reality changed. The fact is that sustaining that position became politcally unattainable. Simply put the Netjets pilots did not want to and would not pay for our first contract. They voted the idea down. They had the right to. It was their money in the first place. What do you think the solution should have been after the Netjet pilots left the IBT? Where do you think the money should have come from to continue to negoitate? Really I would like an answer to that question.

As far as your dissatisfaction with the bylaws chage vote I don't recall hearing anyone at the time complaining about the ballots. If there was a real issue someone should have complained to the 1108 and if they didn't respond to the NMB. I know I got my ballot on time no problem. Even if the vote was flawed as you claim then why are the Flight Options pilots that today make up 100 percent of the 1108s membership not working to correct it? If the majority of the Flight Options pilots don't support the back dues then why are over 75% MIGS who have paid them? Logically all the evidence points to the position that the majority of the pilots today support the need to pay the dues from 11/06. In a republic the majority makes decisions for the entire group.

I like your theory on the "pay cut" that the pilots on the list would take by catching up with what they owe. So using the same logic If I quit paying my mortgage and the bank demands that I become current I should decline because it would be forcing me to take a pay cut?

As far as benefitting from the contract all pilots do. Did you like the out of senority lay off in 2008? Did you like the loss of benefits? Did you like the rolling duty clock? If the answer is no to any of these questions then you are benefitting from the contract in that it protects you from those things happening again.

Given your dislike of the union I find your next point very interesting. So you contend that the IBT should have sat on the cards and let the raise come then called for a vote to get staus quo? That doesn't even make sense if thats what your saying. Do you really beleive a raise was coming? If so why didn't they give it to us in the weeks or months prior while dissatifaction with the company was growing within the pilot group? If the company really didn't have time as you contend why did they not come to the negoitating table looking for a quick settlement instead of the foot dragging that occured for years? If they were really concerned about the well being, and happiness of the pilot group they would have done that. Instead they claimed that they couldn't even afford to continue paying us at the benefits levels that we had at the time. They drastically increased benefit costs and eliminated the 401k match to remain "competitive and viable." So which was it? Could they afford a raise as they claimed before the vote or could they not as they claimed after the vote? What evidence other than Bob Ts word is there that there was any intention of giving us a raise? I have never seen any.

It seems to me you want it both ways. You want the raise from the company and then status quo from the union to protect it. I assume you have piece of mind from the protections the contract gives you from pay cuts and work rule changes but you don't want to pay for the costs incurred in getting the contract. You want to not really be a member of this union but to be welcomed into a different unionized pilot group if it suits you.

If you wonder why the Options MIGS are not happy with non Migs let me explain it to you. The Migs to a person have sacrificed to support the union and gain a contract. They paid for it and non the non Migs are reaping the same benefits it even though they didn't contribute. Just because it fits within the letter of the law doesn't make it right or fair. If you think this is cool how about you work all month and then send me a portion of your paycheck? Its the same thing. If someone resents your actions and choices they are probably not going to be friendly to you.

If you wonder why other union groups would even care about a non MIGS at Options I'll explain it to you. Unions work on solidarity sometimes even in the face of self interest. If someone is so self interested that they will not pay up to become a MIGS at Options they will probably not stick with the union in the event of a legal job action. I don't want people in SWAPA that don't have the collective pilot groups back. If the people on the list don't like being pilots in a unionized work group they should seek work in a non union work group.

As far as me harrassing or intimidating anyone please explain to me how I am personally doing this. I don't work there anymore. The Options pilots I still communicate with are my friends who happen to all be MIGS. What group am I a member of? It must be a really well kept secret because even I don't know what it is.

Ok, you are starting to tell the truth in your first paragraph of your rant. Se was that so hard? If you had just told the truth from the start, more would trust you and your friends