Flight Options - July 1

[AeroBoy]

I'm trying to gauge the fallout from the upcoming July 1 changes to crew domiciles, scheduling, crew meals, etc. at Flight Options. How many FlOps pilots have left, or are planning on leaving, due to these changes?

Also, has the union organizing effort stalled at FlOps?

Please PM me your answers...

 

[Hogprint]

Aeroboy

After you get your PMs and sanitize them, can you post the results of what you found? It would be interesting to see what the mindset is at Options.

I've noticed an increased kinship on the road with other frax pilots. Akin to what it was like about five years ago, before some of the head to head advertising and competing between the companies.

This is just my opinion and observation, but all the frax are starting to show their warts!

 

[AeroBoy]

Hogprint,

I'd be happy to share. All I need now is some people to reply...

 

[WrknStff]

Just the domicile issue, but all that's been pushed back to 31 Sep, although it affects all new hires now.

 

[FracCapt]

I'm trying to gauge the fallout from the upcoming July 1 changes to crew domiciles, scheduling, crew meals, etc. at Flight Options. How many FlOps pilots have left, or are planning on leaving, due to these changes?

Lots have left. I have no exact numbers, but I know of quite a few that have found other jobs based on the Tier 3 domicile thing. It has been pushed back 3 months, though. The company decided to also pay for hotel rooms before day 1 and after day 8 for a year for those crewmembers that are commuting to their domicile based on the Tier 3's going away. I think they did this(both the hotel and pushing back the effective date) because they didn't realize how many pilots they would lose because of this. They didn't want to lose them all at once, since we are short staffed as it is.

Also, has the union organizing effort stalled at FlOps?

Far from it. We're getting close.

Please PM me your answers...

No need. Everybody can see these replies, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Hogprint]

FracCapt said about F Options union:

Far from it. We're getting close.

Great job! You have our support!

I still think somewhere in the not so distant future, we will probably be wearing the same colored ties!

 

[Frac Daddy]

Great job! You have our support!

I still think somewhere in the not so distant future, we will probably be wearing the same colored ties!

So if we organize with ASAP you NJA guys will put away the stapler?

 

[Majik]

So if we organize with ASAP you NJA guys will put away the stapler?

Here's how a merger goes (I'm pretty sure) - the 2 groups elect representatives. Those representatives have 90 days to come to a mututal agreement on merging seniority between the 2 groups. If they can't reach an agreemeent, an independent arbitrator is assigned, hears both arguments and makes a binding decision.

I do know this - your work conditions have eroded over the last 5 years and you are not in a position to have any input whatsoever. Your only recourse is to quit or bend over and take it. Doesn't matter to me if you decide to remain powerless, as you're the ones that have to live with reductions in schedule, domicile, benefit, or pay. I'm just an observer from the sidelines. You're the ones that have to decide. Basing that decision on spectulation that your company is going under, will be bought by NJA, and you might be junior to someone at NJA that was hired after you were hired by Options is faulty logic. Vote no if you are content with management deciding which changes are best for you. Vote yes if you want to be part of that decision process.

 

[Frac Daddy]

Here's how a merger goes (I'm pretty sure) - the 2 groups elect representatives. Those representatives have 90 days to come to a mututal agreement on merging seniority between the 2 groups. If they can't reach an agreemeent, an independent arbitrator is assigned, hears both arguments and makes a binding decision.

I do know this - your work conditions have eroded over the last 5 years and you are not in a position to have any input whatsoever. Your only recourse is to quit or bend over and take it. Doesn't matter to me if you decide to remain powerless, as you're the ones that have to live with reductions in schedule, domicile, benefit, or pay. I'm just an observer from the sidelines. You're the ones that have to decide. Basing that decision on spectulation that your company is going under, will be bought by NJA, and you might be junior to someone at NJA that was hired after you were hired by Options is faulty logic. Vote no if you are content with management deciding which changes are best for you. Vote yes if you want to be part of that decision process.

Majik,

I have sent my card in every drive and voted yes when we had the vote at RTA. My card is in now and I have a stack I carry on the road with me. I don't need the "fence-sitter" pep talk.

The difference between the IBT and FLOPS management is that, if we were to organize, I would PAYING the union to NOT screw me. Being stapled to the bottom of a list does constitue "screwing". It would be like if my house burned down and my insurance agent delivered my check to my neighbor, saying:"But he is a better customer than you".

I am not trying to pick a fight, Majik. I just wonder how sincere all this brotherly love I am experiencing on the road is.

Cheers,

FD

 

[Majik]

Understand. Put it another way. Pretend you have been paying dues for 5 years. Pretend that your company buys FlexJet. How would you honestly feel about being pushed back on your seniority list by flex pilots that were hired by Flex before you were hired by Options? Would you feel it fair to give up your seniority number to those pilots? Do your 5 years of dues count for nothing?


You won't get stapled to the bottom. You won't merge with a straight DOH. It will be something in between.

 

[Majik]

Oh, and a better analogy - You pay social security taxes for all of your working life. A foreigner comes to the US, attains citizenship and works only one year before reaching age 65. He says he wants the same social security check amount that you get. He's only worked and paid into the system for one year. You've done it all of your life. Want to to split your check with him?

 

[Majik]

AeroBoy,

I know an Options pilot in the Legacy that is leaving this week. He said he saw the writing on the wall and is moving on to another job.

 

[El Chupacabra]

So if we organize with ASAP you NJA guys will put away the stapler?

What if Raytheon buys Netjets? I hear the BRK shareholders want Warren to get rid of us. Not getting their 7%.

 

[NRHPilot]

Can anyone give me a quick answer of what a Tier 3 city if for you guys. I am assuming it is a smaller city that still has airline service. Will these FLOPS guys have to pick a new gateway city and live there?

 

[FLOPSouth]

Last week tng said there were 860 pilots. They expect more to leave in Sept. with the implement of Tier 3 closure. However, they are hiring Flex scheduling pilots in ATL, DFW and SFO.

Southside

 

[guido411]

NRH,

Good questions, but there seems to be no answer to the first question. Despite many people asking on the company FAQ site "WHAT constitutes a Tier 3 airport?" there has been no black and white answer. Basically it seems somebody in a higher up position than the rest of us, randomly decided one day what was going to be what. No money savings have been conveyed to us pilots. No rhyme nor reason has been applied, or at least passed on to us either. Fact is when the first revision to the original Tier list came out, some former Tier 2's where reclassified as Tier 3's. Again, nobody told us WHY. Every guy I've flown with that is at a Tier 3 has always taken the approach that they're going to fly out on the first flight of the day and arrive on the last flight of the day, anything else was just icing on the cake. So it's not because some people have been difficult that they've decided to do this.

As for your second question, the Tier 3 guys (that don't quit or are fired) will not have to MOVE but will have to claim a current Tier 1 or 2 domicile to commute from. In other words, the company will let you live anywhere but they'll only buy you an airline ticket from a Tier 1 or 2. For many people in Tier 3's this is not a viable option because the closest airport (other than their current domicile) is far, far away. Many of the people I have talked to have decided to stay where they are and make the company fire them as to collect unemployment while they find a new job.

Also for the Tier 3 guys, the company is being so kind as to provide a hotel room for them in their new domicile on the night BEFORE Day 1 and AFTER Day 8 so they can be in position for a flight at the a$$-crack of dwan the nest day and then be well rested for the 5 hr trip home after Day 8. Basically, they're allowing a person to work a 10 on 5 off schedule. They are going to provide this "benefit" for a year after Sept. 1 to allow time for Tier 3 guys to relocate.

But, seeing as how you don't work for FLOPs this may all be a moot point because if you hire on here you will HAVE to select a Tier 1 and if you ever want to move it will have to be to another Tier 1 only. Hope this answeres your last question. And if you find somebody that knows HOW they classified the Tier list, post it here because I know about 800 other FLOPs pilots that would like an explaination.

 

[NRHPilot]

guido411,

Thanks for your time in answering my questions. That is what I needed to know.

NRH

 

[On Your Six]

Fleet transitions...

A little off topic, but how's the transition to 4-5 fleet types going? Are the Citation (CJ, III, and V) pilots quickly being reallocated to the Beechjet or Hawker fleets? What about the F50, CL601 and GIV pilots - are they racing to claim their Legacy seats?

I realize that many of these aircraft may still be on the property for a long while (until the contracts run out), but I would imagine that some of the transition is starting to take place. Along those lines, how many Citation Xs are expected to be on the property through the end of 2005 - are you adding many more or is Swift still flying them?

Lastly, what percentage of your Hawker 800XPs are XP-Cs with the new flight deck? Thanks

 

[guido411]

NRH,

No problem.

Six,

The transition to 4 fleet types will be slow (4-5 years) but has been going faster than anticipated. But there are many owners that will sit till the end of their contract. There are many CJ owners that always ride on 400s, haven't seen a CJ in months. Also many CIII owners riding on 800s or better. Would you be in a hurry to spend more money for what you already get? neither would I.

As for pilots of expiring fleets, I think they are being merged into the 4 fleets according to what their seniority will hold. I assume this because people are leaving in droves and yet no bids come out. These seats have to be filled by somebody.

As for the CXs. I think we have 7 to date and I think 2 of these are owned and operated by FLOPs. A couple of the Xs are owned by us but flown by Swift due to a long term pilot service agreement of some kind and a couple are owned AND operated by Swift on a lease or charter agreement of sorts. All new Xs will be crewed and owned by FLOPs and the Swift birds will be crewed by us when the contracts expire. The ones that Swift own may have to be bought by us later or we may have to buy a coople others since we have no ownership.

Lastly for the XP-Collins, no clue. I know all the newest XPs have them and all future deliveries will have the Pro-Line but have no idea how many on property.

 

[Heavy Set]

NRH,

No problem.

Six,

The transition to 4 fleet types will be slow (4-5 years) but has been going faster than anticipated. But there are many owners that will sit till the end of their contract. There are many CJ owners that always ride on 400s, haven't seen a CJ in months. Also many CIII owners riding on 800s or better. Would you be in a hurry to spend more money for what you already get? neither would I.

As for pilots of expiring fleets, I think they are being merged into the 4 fleets according to what their seniority will hold. I assume this because people are leaving in droves and yet no bids come out. These seats have to be filled by somebody.

As for the CXs. I think we have 7 to date and I think 2 of these are owned and operated by FLOPs. A couple of the Xs are owned by us but flown by Swift due to a long term pilot service agreement of some kind and a couple are owned AND operated by Swift on a lease or charter agreement of sorts. All new Xs will be crewed and owned by FLOPs and the Swift birds will be crewed by us when the contracts expire. The ones that Swift own may have to be bought by us later or we may have to buy a coople others since we have no ownership.

Lastly for the XP-Collins, no clue. I know all the newest XPs have them and all future deliveries will have the Pro-Line but have no idea how many on property.

Good post Guido. I am sure having both the regular XP and XP-C versions just adds to the logistical complexity that FLOPS management wants to eliminate in terms of training and crew scheduling. NJA has the same situation and I am sure they both would like to standardize on the XP-C as soon as possible.

As for the X, I am sure the pilots transitioning from the CL-601 fleet are having a tough time squeezing into that narrow cockpit (at least it gets to the destination quicker).