Iam3rd
God, Others, Self
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What empty promises are you refering to?
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Flex's Good, bad, and uglier>.....
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What empty promises are you refering to?
Iam3rd
God, Others, Self
- Joined
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My I ask why you (Diesel) always intend on turning a thread hostile? I just simply asked for clarification on a comment. I don't think anyone was speaking to you.....or asking you.
CL300Pilot
Well-known member
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- Oct 4, 2005
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Lets have a history lesson here just so everyone who is speculating has an understanding as to how we live in todays world of Flexjet. Back in 2002, oh yeah, right after 911, when everyone in the aviation industry was scrambling and hurting, Bombardier Inc., you know, the parent company of Flex, ordered a 20% reduction in force. Layoff if you will. Flexjet was able to dodge that cut for a couple of months until, once again, Bombardier Inc said to cut 20%.
From there, yes, they went out of seniority and got rid of the "bad apples" as you say. Then, they went to the bottom of the list and worked their way up. About 6 months later, when Bomberdier gave Flex the green light to rehire, they began at the top of the list of guys and began calling them back if they wanted the job. No, not the bad apples. Should not have to say that, but I am sure someone will chime in with "what about them." Any way, since that unfortunate time, Flexjet has not laid off a single pilot. Now, we can always harp on 5 years ago, and bring it up like a bad divorce, or you can move on and get over it.
Do I think they would do it that way again if a reduction was called for? You bet. But think about it from a business decision. If you had a guy/gal who flew the airplane ok but was the definition of a tool, gave crap customer service to the owners and was just miserable to be around on a daily basis, would you not want to do it that way yourself?
The fact of the matter is, this is a business and you have to run it that way from a management aspect, or you get to lay off 400 pilots, including yourelf. No, I am not management. I work the line just like everyone else. I just have a lot of management in my previous life.
Hopefully that answers your questions regarding the "out of seniority" lay off.
From there, yes, they went out of seniority and got rid of the "bad apples" as you say. Then, they went to the bottom of the list and worked their way up. About 6 months later, when Bomberdier gave Flex the green light to rehire, they began at the top of the list of guys and began calling them back if they wanted the job. No, not the bad apples. Should not have to say that, but I am sure someone will chime in with "what about them." Any way, since that unfortunate time, Flexjet has not laid off a single pilot. Now, we can always harp on 5 years ago, and bring it up like a bad divorce, or you can move on and get over it.
Do I think they would do it that way again if a reduction was called for? You bet. But think about it from a business decision. If you had a guy/gal who flew the airplane ok but was the definition of a tool, gave crap customer service to the owners and was just miserable to be around on a daily basis, would you not want to do it that way yourself?
The fact of the matter is, this is a business and you have to run it that way from a management aspect, or you get to lay off 400 pilots, including yourelf. No, I am not management. I work the line just like everyone else. I just have a lot of management in my previous life.
Hopefully that answers your questions regarding the "out of seniority" lay off.
Iam3rd
God, Others, Self
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- 143
Good response CL300!! Only problem is that some of these militant union guys on here refuse to view things from both sides. And refuse to understand the business side of this industry. I can understand their issues when it comes to mgmt. and their treatment towards its employees. But when you are refering to pilots and their lack of customer service towards owners, the pilot has to go. Especially when our industry is so customer service driven. The loss of one customer can mean the loss of millions.
Galaxy
Watching FLOPS die slowly
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2002
- Posts
- 426
I wanted to respond to the empty promises comment. First anything they say they should be willing to put it in writing for you. You can be sure that the CEO and other officers of the company have contracts with the company so that the promises the parent company made will be enforcable by free will or by law. Hell, I even have a contract with the company that picks up my garbage-it protects me and the company providing the service. We have turned this profession to what it is today, a group of whining professionals fighting amongst each other while the real problem (Upper Level MGT) lays back and collects huge profits in exorbant salaries and stock options while the workers take cuts, reduced benefits, layoffs and other exciting things. I am not a loud union drum beater but I do believe that you don't get what you deserve-you get only what you negotiate. I don't believe in the bullying practices that mgt or unions have played in the past. All anyone really wants to do is do a good job, get paid a good wage and take care of thier family. A contract is more than just money. By having a set of work rules it protects you, your passengers, and the long term goals of the company. Many pilots today get pressured to do things to complete the mission instead of doing what is legal and safe. Why do they do these things? Fear of losing thier jobs-not a safe work environment in my eyes.
For the original problem of the "Bad Apples" How did they come up in a union or layoff issue? If they actually were not performing to the company SOP's then it appears that a reverse layoff can only be masked as a displinary issue. Fact is if they were rude, disrespectful or whatever being detrimental to the company than they should have been discliplined according to policy. Written up, counceled, suspended then finally terminated if the employee can not fit in. But I am sorry-an excuse of we layed them off in out of senority order because they were bad doesn't smell right. It smells like they were union supporters and the company found the easy way to rid themselves of people with voices.
Ask yourself: Where would this country be if we just terminated everyone who spoke up for something they believe in?
You can thank your forefathers for speaking up and not fearing punishment for it that you are not reading the same question in these languages.
French:
Où ce pays serait si nous terminions juste chacun qui a parlé vers le haut pour quelque chose qu'ils croient dedans ?
German: Wo würde dieses Land sein, wenn wir gerade jeder beendeten, das oben für etwas sprach, das, sie innen glauben?
Japenese:
この国はどこに私達がちょうど信じる何かをはっきり主張した皆を終えたらであるか。
For the original problem of the "Bad Apples" How did they come up in a union or layoff issue? If they actually were not performing to the company SOP's then it appears that a reverse layoff can only be masked as a displinary issue. Fact is if they were rude, disrespectful or whatever being detrimental to the company than they should have been discliplined according to policy. Written up, counceled, suspended then finally terminated if the employee can not fit in. But I am sorry-an excuse of we layed them off in out of senority order because they were bad doesn't smell right. It smells like they were union supporters and the company found the easy way to rid themselves of people with voices.
Ask yourself: Where would this country be if we just terminated everyone who spoke up for something they believe in?
You can thank your forefathers for speaking up and not fearing punishment for it that you are not reading the same question in these languages.
French:
Où ce pays serait si nous terminions juste chacun qui a parlé vers le haut pour quelque chose qu'ils croient dedans ?
German: Wo würde dieses Land sein, wenn wir gerade jeder beendeten, das oben für etwas sprach, das, sie innen glauben?
Japenese:
この国はどこに私達がちょうど信じる何かをはっきり主張した皆を終えたらであるか。
Iam3rd
God, Others, Self
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2004
- Posts
- 143
I will say that I agree with some of the things that you have said. And I will say that I know there is no company that is perfect. They will not always do what they say they are going to do. But the truth of the matter is that up to this point Flex has done a pretty good job so far in following through with the things that they say they are going to do. Not always, but most of the time. And I guess enough so that the majority of pilots do not feel there is a need for a union. Because I bet my life that if Flex was in the habit of breaking its promises and not taking care of its pilots, there would be a union faster than you could say the word "union".
The part I don't understand is why pilots from other companies are dead set on forcing a union down the throats of Flex pilots. And being hostile towards us because we don't see the need. Thats all you read about on this web site. Other pilots from other companies trying to tell us why we need a union. Nobody knows the conditions at Flex better than the Flex pilots. So I promise you that when Flex pilots feel the need for a union, there will be a union. Not a min. sooner and not a min. later.
The part I don't understand is why pilots from other companies are dead set on forcing a union down the throats of Flex pilots. And being hostile towards us because we don't see the need. Thats all you read about on this web site. Other pilots from other companies trying to tell us why we need a union. Nobody knows the conditions at Flex better than the Flex pilots. So I promise you that when Flex pilots feel the need for a union, there will be a union. Not a min. sooner and not a min. later.
CL300Pilot
Well-known member
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Diesel
TEB Hilton resident
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Galaxy
Watching FLOPS die slowly
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2002
- Posts
- 426
History is not always "history" it usually sets the tone for future events. Some may call it case law..Now you know how mgt deals with problems. Flight Options did the same thing and ended up paying for it dearly. Were those people bad apples? To the company they were because they disrupted the way mgt was used to operating. All of those pilots have gone on to different jobs and seem to fit in just fine where they are. Did the go to Bad Apple rehab? Not likely.
I understand your fear of militant attitudes. I have seen them all pro-union, anti-union,Save the Whales, Jesus loves you, Please read this watchtower- you name it they are out there doing what they want to do. They do it because they all feel they see the vision clearly and you just don't see it like they do. So, they talk AT you till they are blue in the face and you never even heard the content just someone barking at you about how your way of thinking is wrong.
The idea of looking at this like a business has been brought up several times. Lets look at it that way:
The MGT View: I am sure the mission statement reads the same everywhere-provide some superior blah blah service at an attractive price yada yada yada. In the end it comes to providing a service and making a profit in the end. Your CEO is no different than any other CEO out there-They will get paid through success or failure. Seems strange to get paid big money if you fail huh? But if they succeed they get even more! The BOD's offer these plans to entice them to stay on board and not jump ship to the next biggest deal. So knowing that-how committed are they if they to your company that you built if they have to have an incentive to stay? Bottom line is the cheaper the number going out the more money they get to keep.
The union you fear isnt some bat swinging, brick throwing group of thugs. They are a group of flying professionals just like yourself that is actually looking out for you and your family of pilots best interest. What the mgt giveth they can also taketh away. But with a contract they must uphold thier end of the deal. If you feel the union will break the bank at the company-think again-why do you think they will never open the books for you to see. Also if you think the company will help you in time of trouble-think again-just because all is good now doesnt mean it will stay that way. FLOPS has a few guys out fighting cancer or injured from an on the job injury and the company sits in a glass cubicle finding ways to save money by reducing thier heath benifits when they need them the most. That is what a lack of contract will get you-stress from the unknown.
In a perfect world we would not need unions, lawyers or other groups that protect us and our interests but todays business world is filled with GREED and empty of CONCIOUS.
Do what is right-
Iam3rd
God, Others, Self
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2004
- Posts
- 143
Once again I agree with some of what you are saying, but at the moment Flex mgmt. has not shown that side of themselves. They have made an effort to try and take care of their pilots. And as I also said before, the second they don't, there will be a big push for a union. Not that I will be apart of that push, but there will probably be enough pilots to vote "yes" for a union.
Remember, Flex pilots are more familure with their work conditions and happiness than those that don't work here. Also, Flex in the last 12 months has only lost 11% of its pilots. And most of those have gone to either Southwest, FedEx or UPS. So once again I don't understand why people on the outside seem hell bent on trying to get Flex pilots to unionize when the Flex pilots themselves don't feel in necessary. Those on the outside act as though they know something that we don't. And its not like Flex pilots are a bunch of pilots that don't understand how a union works. Most of them came from other companies that had unions.
Also with regards to your following statement:
"History is not always "history" it usually sets the tone for future events. Some may call it case law..Now you know how mgt deals with problems. Flight Options did the same thing and ended up paying for it dearly. Were those people bad apples? To the company they were because they disrupted the way mgt was used to operating. All of those pilots have gone on to different jobs and seem to fit in just fine where they are. Did the go to Bad Apple rehab? Not likely"
Keep in mind that you can not find a single Flex pilot that was unhappy about these guys being let go so it was a win win for everyone. And your statement that you think they are doing just fine now.....Do you know these guys? Because you are making the statement as though you do. If you don't then you could also be just as safe to assume that they have not been able to hold a job since they were let go from Flex. That they still have the same issues that caused them to be let go in the first place at Flex.....
Remember, Flex pilots are more familure with their work conditions and happiness than those that don't work here. Also, Flex in the last 12 months has only lost 11% of its pilots. And most of those have gone to either Southwest, FedEx or UPS. So once again I don't understand why people on the outside seem hell bent on trying to get Flex pilots to unionize when the Flex pilots themselves don't feel in necessary. Those on the outside act as though they know something that we don't. And its not like Flex pilots are a bunch of pilots that don't understand how a union works. Most of them came from other companies that had unions.
Also with regards to your following statement:
"History is not always "history" it usually sets the tone for future events. Some may call it case law..Now you know how mgt deals with problems. Flight Options did the same thing and ended up paying for it dearly. Were those people bad apples? To the company they were because they disrupted the way mgt was used to operating. All of those pilots have gone on to different jobs and seem to fit in just fine where they are. Did the go to Bad Apple rehab? Not likely"
Keep in mind that you can not find a single Flex pilot that was unhappy about these guys being let go so it was a win win for everyone. And your statement that you think they are doing just fine now.....Do you know these guys? Because you are making the statement as though you do. If you don't then you could also be just as safe to assume that they have not been able to hold a job since they were let go from Flex. That they still have the same issues that caused them to be let go in the first place at Flex.....
Daytonaflyer
Well-known member
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- Mar 3, 2006
- Posts
- 1,383
Funniest thing I've read all day long!!!
CL300Pilot
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 4, 2005
- Posts
- 322
Galaxy.......
I have no fear of any attitude. Once again, my posting was for potential pilots who are interested in flying for Flexjet that this was 5 years ago. Again, if you read my post, I stated that I believe the company would do it that way again.
As far as fearing a union.....I fear a union as much as you fear pilots who are capable of operating without one.
Each side, the union side and the company side uses scare tactics to get you into their court. It is just a matter of how it presented. The thing that I continue to find interesting is that there are so many on this board who seem to think that the majority of the pilots who work for flexjet are ignorant. Since it takes a majority to vote in a union. Do you actually think for one second that there is not a single pilot at Flex, or any other fractional for that matter, who does not know who the IBT 1108 are? Or the fact that they are looking to represent the entire fractional industry?
Why is it that because the, once again, majority of our pilot force chooses not to vote union, that we are continually blasted for it. Show me more than one Flexjet posting on here that someone does not jump out with you guys need a union. Do you honestly think for one second that our pilot group would not bring in a union if conditions warranted it? We like what we have and we like how our management is treating us. Could all of that change? Absolutely! And if it did, I believe you would see our pilot group take the proper measures. However, since management does not want a union, they are taking care of us. And no, I really don't care who makes more money.
The bottom line is this. Flexjet management and the majority of the pilots do not want a union. Therefore, if you are interested in coming to a non union fractional job, as it stands today, then apply at Flexjet or Citation Shares. If you want a union shop, then by all means, apply at NJA or Flops.
I have no fear of any attitude. Once again, my posting was for potential pilots who are interested in flying for Flexjet that this was 5 years ago. Again, if you read my post, I stated that I believe the company would do it that way again.
As far as fearing a union.....I fear a union as much as you fear pilots who are capable of operating without one.
Each side, the union side and the company side uses scare tactics to get you into their court. It is just a matter of how it presented. The thing that I continue to find interesting is that there are so many on this board who seem to think that the majority of the pilots who work for flexjet are ignorant. Since it takes a majority to vote in a union. Do you actually think for one second that there is not a single pilot at Flex, or any other fractional for that matter, who does not know who the IBT 1108 are? Or the fact that they are looking to represent the entire fractional industry?
Why is it that because the, once again, majority of our pilot force chooses not to vote union, that we are continually blasted for it. Show me more than one Flexjet posting on here that someone does not jump out with you guys need a union. Do you honestly think for one second that our pilot group would not bring in a union if conditions warranted it? We like what we have and we like how our management is treating us. Could all of that change? Absolutely! And if it did, I believe you would see our pilot group take the proper measures. However, since management does not want a union, they are taking care of us. And no, I really don't care who makes more money.
The bottom line is this. Flexjet management and the majority of the pilots do not want a union. Therefore, if you are interested in coming to a non union fractional job, as it stands today, then apply at Flexjet or Citation Shares. If you want a union shop, then by all means, apply at NJA or Flops.
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