Flexjet

[pino]

Looking for info on Flexjet from anyone who works there or is knowledgable. Specifically:

1. Is there a contract for new hire F.O's?
2. Can you explain how the scheduling works?
3. What is the pay starting in the 60 or 45?
4. How are bases assigned?

The only negatives I have heard is the long upgrade (4 yrs +), but that seems to be the case everywhere these days I think. Also I was told by a friend that there is a 2 year contract but fracstats.com says there is no contract. I want to live permanently in Dallas, is that possible or can I be based wherever Flexjet deems necessary?

Advance thanks to anyone who responds.

 

[payton]

Dont expect much from Flex. They will work your butt off and then downsize you 2 seconds later.
Otherwise, the capts are good to fly with.
airplanes are great and maintained very well.
Hotels suck.
Pay suck.
days off suck.

Get your time and get out.

 

[Meathead]

1. Yep, there abosolutely, definitely, no doubt about it is a 2 year training contract for new FOs.

2. This is a little convoluted - 28 day bid cycle. Typical award is for 17 flying days. This will be comprised of (3) rotations made up of 5 or 6 days at a time. (7s were just eliminated). Anyone not in the top seniority of their fleet has almost ZERO say in what days you get.

3. Starting pay for FOs is about 34K. No pay differential for equipment in the FO ranks. (By the way, current plan is no new hires into the Challenger 300). So - bank on the 45 (includes the 40), or the 60. I don't think anyone else will go to the 31 unless attrition gets completely out of hand.

4. Base is your choice of DFW, EWR, FLL, or ONT (or somewhere within 90 minutes of one of those.)

There are some FOs at 4+ years. Nice hardware, and yes, you can plan on a regular diet of 12 hour days +.

 

[gump88]

I heard that Flex would be out of buisness by the end of 2004!

g

 

[Heavy Set]

I hear the Challenger 300 will be a sell-out and could lead to a Flexjet rebound...

 

[LR45JI]

either/or

There has been some concern expressed about the long-term viability of Flexjet. Flexjet is really in a niche market in the fractional industry and they know it and are happy with status-quo.

The 300, from my understanding, has done remarkably well!!! While many like to say that the 300 is selling off the shelf, which is only a half-truth. The 300 has basically sold off all available shares but the majority (over 90%) is from current FX owners: mostly 60 owners going over because the price difference is marginal.

FX will have minimal growth - no huge expansions and no mass exodus. They are super micromanaged from Montreal that it's ridiculous and the boys up north are just happy with the way things are. FX generates a fair amount of positive cash flow and that’s good for everyone.

Five years ago they had plans to take over QS but couldn't handle the bleeding of money that goes with slaying a giant - Bombardier doesn't have the stomach for such when it's not their core business.

 

[flexlrpilot357]

Pino,
A few additional comments:
1: Yes, I believe there is a contract for new-hires. Call Karen Parr for details.

2: Scheduling works as follows. There are 13 28-day bid periods per year. Base pay is figured on 219 work days total (including vacation and training). The average bid award is 17 days/period, though it goes as low as 14 during slow season, and as high as 20 during busy season. (these max and min lines are rare) Min # of days on is 4, max is 6. Figure the number of on/off combinations that add up to 28, and that's how many schedule combinations there are.

The seniority-based bid system is a bit complex. It awards lines based on company requirements and then by seniority. Good luck getting Christmas off if you're junior. Some guys would have you believe that the system gives them the exact opposite of what they want, no matter what that is. But... you know some guys...

During peak seasons, all days over 17 were paid at the OT rate.

Upgrades have been slow for the past couple of years, so new captains join the captain pay scale at the # of years as an FO minus one. i.e. 4th year FO gets 3rd year Capt. pay upon upgrade. (~$61K)

The reason for the change in max/min work days is to avoid layoffs due to unforseen peaks and troughs in demand. Last year there was a "furlough" due to a mis-estimation of demand. (those furloughees interested in returning have since been re-hired.) The hiring strategy was changed to avoid this in the future.

3&4 have been answered pretty well.

Hotels have been excellent for the past several months, since we changed our travel agent.

Pay sucks... I guess because our FOs make what Netjets Captains make.

Someone said days off suck. Well, what you do on your days off is your business. The schedule has been explained pretty thoroughly. The 7-day line was recently deleted due to popular request. (and probably at considerable company expense)

Flexjet is doing pretty well after a rough couple of years. We had our 2nd best February ever this year. We've been profitable for the past 2 years or so - a claim our larger competitors can't make. (ref. their shareholder's annual report) Also, our FOs are paid better than Netjets captains and our crewmembers don't have to foot the bill for our "negotiating team" to stay at home and do god-knows-what for the past couple of years. (100% raise!! WOOP!)

The Challenger 300 has sold like hotcakes. So well that new owners have had to buy into aircraft such as the LJ60 in order to wait for their 300 share to become available. The 300 is about :40 minutes slower coast to coast than the Citation X (590 vs. 540mph - if the X can do M.92 the whole way), with a much bigger cabin (28'L X 6'1"H X 7'2"W vs. 19.8'L X 5'7"H X 5'6" W) and for several million dollars less. Oh yeah, and our paint kicks ass. The future is looking bright.

Bombardier doesn't have to bleed money to beat QS. QS bleeds the money for us.

All in all, I'd go to Netjets if I were you. Just think, either you'll get a 100% raise (anydaynow) or you'll get a lot of sun on the picket line.

 

[Xdriver]

Forget the training contract its illegal. I went to court in Dallas and won. Flexjet had no leg so stand on and they knew it. If you want details private me. The bottom line is whatever they make you sign its been tossed out in court in Dallas county.

Hell I even won damages and my lawyer's fees

 

[Live4flyng]

Here we go again

Lear357,

Sorry to have to correct your misinformation, but a fourth year FO at FX does not make more than a 4th year Captain at NJA. As you said, the average number of days/month worked at FX is 17. At NJA it is 15.2/month.

4th year FO at FX makes $61K as you stated. 17x12=204 days worked per year. Daily rate is $299.00

4th year CA at NJA makes $58K. 15.2x12=182.4 days worked per year. Daily rate is $318.00

Since you don't have a contract, seniority is not only complex, it doesn't exist for you. Obviously you don't know much about contract negotiations either. What exactly does this mean? "QS bleeds the money for us."

Investing money into an operation for global expansion will not realize a profit immediately in the Fractional Business. It could accelerate closure for the stagnant competition though.

 

[NJA Capt]

Flexjet is doing pretty well after a rough couple of years. We had our 2nd best February ever this year. We've been profitable for the past 2 years or so - a claim our larger competitors can't make.

Maybe you should check some facts.

Reference the FAA database.
I took the liberty of saving some fleet totals going back 4 years.

In that time NJA has gained approx 150 aircraft and FlexJet had a net loss of 11. I see aircraft in Ex-Flex Lears parked all over the country.

Pretty easy to show a profit when you've taken 10 Lear 31s, 16 Lear 60s, and 7 Challengers out of the program. While gaining a whopping 18 Lear 45s and 4 Challenger 300s. How much profit do you think NJA would show if it took 1 little old BBJ out of the program?

I agree that your mighty Challenger, is a much more comfortable ride than the CX. But why have we sold 70 CXs and the max I can find for Flexjet Challengers is 24? Currently 17. It seems that Flex used to operate more than 110 a/c and is currently operating 97.

Hmmmmm.

If I could add on to what L4F said. You work 17 days per month, but your schedule is based on 28 day months (I guess days are longer in Canada?). That equates to 13 months per year. Enjoy your pay, I'd rather be home that extra month per year.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Didn't mind signing that contract in the first place though, huh?

God forbid you keep your word...


Gotta love it....

 

[flexlrpilot357]

You're probably right re: all of those aircraft numbers, NJA Capt. With a caveat: the Challenger 300 is a brand new program (about 4 delivered so far), and it's already sold into the high teens or twenties. That's backorder, baby.

It's no secret that in recent years that the Flexjet fleet has shrunk due to both a soft market and a drive to be ultra lean and efficient.

All of this points to a fundamental difference between the two companies. FX makes a concerted effort to keep and operate a profitable number of airplanes on the books. Be it 70 airplanes or 200, the strategy is to not have a bunch of airplanes (read: fixed costs) sitting on the books generating big smears of red ink. There's no money in owning excess airplanes. I suppose we could snatch up airplanes as fast as the factory could build them, and bleed $40 million/yr. too. That's just not what we choose to do.

QS likes to announce to the Aviation Press, God, and everyone else that they're buying 700 Cessna 673XLP super catfishes (at a discount), and if they're delivered and unsold, Uncle Warren is left with the tab.

But I have to admit... Netjets has been in this business longer than anyone else, and they are obviously the largest frax. They have an excellent record of safety, I'm sure the service is superlative, and the crewmembers (based on the fine gentlemen in this forum and my NJA-employed friends) are certainly superb. The QS business model simply carries a lot of red ink, which well-known corporate welfare proponent Warren Buffet will gladly sop up like so much gravy. That's all well and good. You will soon have a 100% pay raise and be living on a private island in the Caribbean.

Now this whole thing about the calendar boggles my mind, even more so because I thought we've already covered this!! Can we finally put this to rest? What difference does it make about the length of the month. We're all paid on a daily rate, so who cares if we bid 28 days, 30 days, 14 days, or 180 days?? How 'bout if you base it on a year, and say that we work anywhere between 182 and 260 days/yr (at the theoretical extremes - I doubt anyone could work those if they tried), the average being 219. But really, the important thing is daily rates.

L4F, your numbers are all screwed up. A 3rd year Capt. (ex 4th yr. FO) here can easily make $65K, if they are a little more industrious, ~$70K if they are very industrious, or $58K working less than 17/bid. Minimum is about $50K.

4th year FO at FX makes $61K as you stated. 17x12=204 days worked per year. Daily rate is $299.00
4th year CA at NJA makes $58K. 15.2x12=182.4 days worked per year. Daily rate is $318.00

Honestly, buddy, you're like talking to a brick sometimes. I'm not spending any more time on you.

Gulfstream200: Excellent point. But that's ok, I'm glad he's happy elsewhere.

 

[Live4flyng]

Don't waste our time writing then

If you can't get it right the first time. You posted the payscale, not me. I was just using the numbers you posted, and there isn't any errors in my math. NJA pilots can make more too, I thought you were talking about base salary. You brought up the pay issue between NJA CAs and FX FOs, not me. I just had to set your record straight.

All of this points to a fundamental difference between the two companies. FX makes a concerted effort to keep and operate a profitable number of airplanes on the books. Be it 70 airplanes or 200, the strategy is to not have a bunch of airplanes (read: fixed costs) sitting on the books generating big smears of red ink. There's no money in owning excess airplanes. I suppose we could snatch up airplanes as fast as the factory could build them, and bleed $40 million/yr. too. That's just not what we choose to do.

"bunch of airplanes sitting on the books" does not smear red ink. I thought you were a fractional pilot. If so, you would know that fractional Companies like NJA do not own the airplanes, they just manage them. OWNERS own the airplanes and pay for them. So your "fundamentals" are a little flawed. It's obvious you are not part of management either, or you would realize that the more airplanes you have, the more efficient you become. At least I would hope you aren't part of management, but then again that would explain alot of the crap that comes from you. The brick is done with you too!

 

[flexlrpilot357]

Ho hummm....

You said something unintelligible about how owning more airplanes make a fractional company more efficient, right? In the words of the great Oracle of Omaha:

NetJets, our fractional-ownership operation lost $41 million pre-tax in 2003. The company had a
modest operating profit in the U.S., but this was more than offset by a $32 million loss on aircraft
inventory and by continued losses in Europe.

If you'd read a little more carefully and stop breathing through your mouth, you'd see I was talking about the unsold (core) airplanes sitting on the books that generate red ink. Is that how Netjets gets so "efficient", by owning all of that "aircraft inventory"? That's core, baby. Unsold. Red ink. Inefficient. Hard environment to justify 100% raises. You're lucky that Uncle Warren is a notoriously firm believer in pumping gobs and gobs of cash into businesses that lose money.

I did get it right the first time, but I can see how it's easy for you to get confused. To make things easy for you, based on what you said, a FX 4th year captain could make what your 4th year captain makes if he bids and recieves a minimum-day line every month. (read 14) If you want to talk base salary, the FX guy makes ~$11K more, and of course, works more, and pays $0 in union dues. Now, speaking in terms of daily rate, they make about the same. Unfortunately, 14 isn't available every month - that's available based on owner demand. If you call that a black eye for us, so be it.

 

[NJA Capt]

Now this whole thing about the calendar boggles my mind... What difference does it make about the length of the month. We're all paid on a daily rate, so who cares if we bid 28 days, 30 days, 14 days, or 180 days??...But really, the important thing is daily rates.

Exactly. By virtue of the 28 day bid cycle you bid one more cycle per year than anyone else.

If two companies work the same "17 day" schedule, one based on 17 days per calender month, and the other based on a 28 day cycle. The one on the 28 day cycle works 13 "cycles" per year, where the other company works 12 "cycles" per year. So naturally the one on the 28 day cycle will pay more per year even if they both pay the same daily rate. Basically, you work 17 extended days per year to get your annual pay.

365/28=13 months 17*13=221 days/year
1year=12 months 17*12=204 days/year

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NetJets, our fractional-ownership operation lost $41 million pre-tax in 2003. The company had a
modest operating profit in the U.S., but this was more than offset by a $32 million loss on aircraft
inventory and by continued losses in Europe.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Maybe if you would read that a little closer you would understand.
If the losses were that bad, do you think we would keep funneling money to Europe? Or if worldwide we lost $41 million, what if were sold off 1 BBJ for the $50 million market price? Gee, a magic $9 Million profit.

Personally, this is my favorite Uncle Warren quote:
"No-one's going to catch us. We've had dumb competitors in the past and they bleed. We've got more blood than they have." - Warren Buffett

 

[flexlrpilot357]

ok, NJA Capt, it looks like we're in agreement. I could work a lot less and make NJA Capt. base pay, and you could work a lot more and make Flex base pay. Just don't forget to lop off 3% for dues.

 

[NJA Capt]

Just don't forget to lop off 3% for dues.

uhum....it's actually 1.56%

 

[flexlrpilot357]

So a year 4 FX Cpt. can work a bare-bones 14 day line (3 days below " FX standard", =182 days total/yr), and get standard NJA Cpt pay, after you subtract his union dues.

Or if worldwide we lost $41 million, what if were sold off 1 BBJ for the $50 million market price? Gee, a magic $9 Million profit.

WB's gonna expect you to make money eventually. You contend that you're going to do that by selling off all of your airplanes? Kind of destroys the future revenue stream, not to mention your jobs, doesn't it?

Ya gotta admit, if you're a frax operator, it makes better business sense to make money flying the owner's airplanes, than by selling off the operator's airplanes.

Of course, it might not be a bad idea to get rid of those BBJs, I understand they're not really a big revenue generator, eh? I could be wrong.

 

[payton]

The problem with your arguement is this. As a new FO. at flex you get 10 days off a month. Maybe 1 or 2 guys will get 12 or 13 days off, but the mass majority will only get 10 days off. Those 10 days will be decided by a computer and you will have little chance of getting the day off you want.

A Flex captains wife on one of these forums said it best
Her kids asked " when is Daddy coming home to visit."

 

[LR45JI]

Flex,

For the record:

2000 BH Report:

"Last year I told you that EJA’s recurring revenue from monthly management fees and hourly usage grew
by 46% in 1999. In 2000 the growth was 49%. I also told you that this was a low-margin business, in which
survivors will be few. Margins were indeed slim at EJA last year, in part because of the major costs we are incurring in developing our business in Europe."

2001 BH Report:

"Our NetJets® fractional ownership program sold a record number of planes last year and also showed a gain of
21.9% in service income from management fees and hourly charges. Nevertheless, it operated at a small loss,
versus a small profit in 2000. We made a little money in the U.S., but these earnings were more than offset by
European losses. Measured by the value of our customers planes, NetJets accounts for about half of the
industry. We believe the other participants, in aggregate, lost significant money."

2002 BH Report:

Though NetJets revenues set a record in 2002, the company again lost money. A small profit in the
U.S. was more than offset by losses in Europe. Overall, the fractional-ownership industry lost
significant sums last year, and that is almost certain to be the outcome in 2003 as well.

Here is how I see it:

NJA USA = profit (whatever modest means!!!)
NJA Europe = losses (but slowely turning around)

NJA USA and NJA Europe are two different animals.

Is Flexjet mgmt in Dallas responsiable for Flexjets charter operation in Europe? No