Flexjet?

[Pugnacious G]

Bollocks

Yo Flexlrpilot357,

I probably wouldn't go around outing people on the message board, but if you are who my brother Xdriver claims than sorry.... You deserve it.

No, I'm not management. Even if I was, so what? Would my fact-based arguments hold less water? Might as well say, "don't listen to him, I bet he's a jew!"

If it's a lie than why should anyone listen to one word of your anti-labor propaganda.

I've already referred to the Flexjet 28-day bid period as a "bid month". I'm sure you can grant me license for that. Anyway, it doesn't matter, because we all use the same year. How you split it up is irrelevant.

Irrelevant? You work 13 bid periods. Us union brothers work 12. Even the unfortunate 17-day guys like myself work 17 days less than you each year. Our 7&7 guys work so many fewer days than you that perhaps they're overpaid. That's far from irrelevant. It's a huge quality of life difference. So are the food and the hotels and the big brother with the bat sitting next to you when the man tries to spank your pee pee. (metephorically speaking)

Anyway, think about this, ya'all. The "pie" is only so big. From that pie salaries, benefits, travel expenses, and all other operational expenses must be paid. Spend more than is in the pie, company is losing money/incurring debt. (Think UAL) Want the pie to be bigger? Ok, charge more money. Ya'all remember what that does to demand, right?

Wow there are two HUGE peices of the pie that you forgot to include there friend: MANAGEMENT SALARIES, CORPORATE PROFITS. I think we must have close to 500 VP's and Chief B/S Officers over here whose salaries are ripe for the picking. I have no idea how your company is doing but I'm not worried about putting mine out of business one bit. As much money as we waste every day(and it's got to be huge) we're still far better off than UAL or US-Scare. Our profits are all reinvested in things like overseas expansion, buying the Seagrams hangar in HPN and oh yeah, the NetJets Breeders Cup. Then they tell the press: "Gosh we're not even breaking even."

Folks it's all a big game. Guys like Flexlr357 just don't play for the same team as PILOTS like you and me. The only fact that y'all should care about is this: all frac pilots are underpaid.

SEND IN YOUR UNION CARDS! Together we can make a difference!

 

[flexlrpilot357]

Ha, fantastic! You can't beat me in the ring, so you try to unmask me. This is playing out just like a 1980's B-Grade saturday afternoon wrestling match. Who is Mr. Wrestling #2?

My identity is really irrelevant to the discussion, though I have to admit being mistaken for Mr. Graff is quite a compliment. What a bright fella. Borderline brilliant, I'd say!

If you can't argue with me point-by-point, and must resort to name calling, personal attacks, and virtual "unmasking", then you're really an idiot with an opinion, and nothing else. But I can't really blame you. If I make you feel like such a pathetic wretch that your eye makeup runs and you get distracted and spill tea all over your dollies, well then I understand, I'd be mad at me too.

Back to beating up puppies:

Irrelevant? You work 13 bid periods. Us union brothers work 12.

("Us" union brothers? Nevermind...) So what? You can have 365 bid period, each lasting one day. I bet you were the kid in the psychology textbook who was happy if his mac and cheese was in a big pile on a little plate, and unhappy if his mac and cheese (same amount, btw) was spread out over a large dinner plate. What's important here is how much you're paid per day.

As much money as we waste every day(and it's got to be huge)

Remember when I was talking about efficiency? Man, you make all my arguments for me!

Guys like Flexlr357 just don't play for the same team as PILOTS like you and me.

That's right! Guys like Flexlr357 are vampires who shun all that is good and just! They feed off of the blood of the living, and steal our women! They poison the well and ruin our crops!

all frac pilots are underpaid

By what ruler? Your mom tell you that, or did you just decide how much you're worth? If you decided how much you're worth, then why isn't it more? I'm interested!

XDriver: Really impressive emotional tirade. You should write for the soap operas. Seriously!

 

[flexlrpilot357]

live4flyng:

I wasn't ignoring you, but I almost forgot to reply! Right after you snorted the cherry Jell-O, You either babbled something about your blanky or

That is where you are wrong flexlrpilot357,
it actually saves the company money by having gateways all over the country.

Less time ferrying airplanes for the next trip = your statement above (EFFICIENCY)!

Oh, you are such a treat to me! You're like clubbing a baby seal with a blue whale. You've obviously done time at MIT teaching postgraduate mathematics, so for the benefit of our readers, let's carry your theories of fractional efficiency on to their logical conclusion.

You base enough airplanes so you never have to do a ferry flight (because if less ferrying is more efficient, then NEVER ferrying is MOST efficient, right??), and spread the crews across the country really thin too... Let's crew them at each airport where airplanes are.

Four crews for each airplane, ok? One crew works, and the other three are off, since you all work only 3 months/year. (Until the next contract, when you have 6 crews watching the one crew work, and two other crews out on disability for "back injuries". That's the hallmark of Teamster efficiency, right?)

So, there's roughly 5,000 airports we fly to in the US? And you have how many types of airplanes? 6 or so? So, 5,000 x 6 acft types x 8 pilots. Man, we are getting EFFICIENT here, I can feel it!

Ok, you need 240,000 pilots and 30,000 airplanes so you can avoid inefficient position flights. But that's not going to work if you have multiples of the same type leaving the same airport.

Or maybe doing a certain amount of positioning is optimum, as is crewing in strategic locations? Nah! Nevermind.

 

[Pugnacious G]

What was your point exactly?

Oh, I get it,

FlexJet is the best place anyone could ever hope to work and BTW it's also the most efficiently managed corporation that ever existed. Well, good for you. I'm happy that you feel that way. I'll tell my buddy who works there what you've said and I'm sure he'll be pleased as punch too.


I think one of my BROTHERS already did this math above but here goes:

12x17=204 work days/yr on the union 17 day schedule
12x15.2=182 " union 7&7 schedule

13x17=221 " non-union 17 day schedule

And yes we subtract 2,3, or 4 weeks vacation from the above based on years of service. And yes you still get paid more because you work more. You may even make a tad more each work day. Unlike you, my union is keeping me home with my family more and they're negotiating a pay scale that should pay me substantially more than you in a day. And since, according to you, the profit margin at Flex is so tight, I guess you'll never get another raise. But you're ecstatic. And I'm happy for you.

I have decided for myself (and my mommy agrees with me) that I'm substantially underpaid and that's why I support my union 100%. You have decided that if they paid you another cent, Flex would perish and you're happy with that and again, I'm happy for you.

Oh goody, you want to talk about the gateways that our union didn't even have to fight for to get (But they did guarantee in writing). The truth (I'm not afraid of it)is that EJA opened gateways to attract pilots. Since you obviously ARE teaching postgraduate math at MIT: explain to me how airlining pilots out of 29 or 100 or 500 gateways costs Santulli any more that airlining the same number of pilots out of one base. There's still only a few planes and even fewer passengers in CMH on any given day. Are the laws of physics somehow different in Dallas?

Now, for the VAST MAJORITY out there. Don't you feel that you're worth more? If so send in those cards!

All frac pilots are underpaid and all frac co's are inefficient.

 

[fuzzydice]

flexlrpilot357,

Admittedly, I'm not Einstein and I'm not a great orator or writer. I'm just the average-joe, dumb as a rock line pilot - and I really have a hard time getting my brain around your posts. What is your motivation? Obviously you don't favor a union at Flex, but why? If you're not management, I'm not sure why you are so concerned about the company's position.

Unless you're in senior management, i.e. the CFO, I don't think you are qualified to talk about the pie, the size of the pie, or even the flavor of the pie. Obviously, the proverbial pie exists, but I highly doubt that the details are disclosed to you on how it's divided or how big it is. We're under the impression that we teter on the edge of profitability every quarter, but how do we know that for sure? How many times has smoke been blown up our tailpipes? Let's sit down with the company and bargain and see what we can get. I promise you that Flex won't agree to something they can't afford. We're not trying to break the bank, we're just trying to raise the bar a bit.

What's the worst that could happen? We could vote in the Teamsters, negotiate, and come out with a contract that reflects the exact same pay and schedules that we currently have. Bummer. What have we gained?

We've gained one voice as a pilot group.
We've gained an enforceable contract.
Maybe we'll be unsucessful on improving pay and schedules because the "pie" wasn't big enough... however we can gain in other areas such as:

Protection against unfair/unjust termination.
Furlough policy
Scheduling/Training/Upgrade policies that respect seniority.
Publishing lines of flying to be bid on by seniority instead of PBS?
Personal days in addition to / in lieu of sick days?
More gateways?
Reduced cost / deductibles of health insurance?
Scope? Stop other air carriers from buying shares in our company then turning around and profiting from them
Hotel committee.
A "real" professional standards committee.
Better crew meals and/or the chance to pick our own every day?
Parking reimbursements that actually cover our parking expense?
Any other issue on the gripe list that wouldn't really cost the company much money, but would improve out quality of life?

What's a more realistic scenario? We will win in the areas of pay and schedules and some combination of the other issues, it'll be a great baseline initial contract. Then in a few years, when our contract is up for renewal, and the economy will be in full swing, we can go back to the table and ask for increases that are in synch with the growth and profitability of the company.

Anybody every thought about a merger? Let's say Bombardier (or whoever owns us at the time) decides to merge Flexjet with a another operator. Let's say that this company has a union. We'll get stapled to the bottom. Number one seniority at Flexjet becomes #XXXX. You'll keep your seat for a little while, but as the training and upgrades are accomplished... you'll be pulling gear for low pay once again. Hard thing to swallow at age 55. If we have a contract, we'll have protection for our seniority. That kind of protection is invaluable, in my opinion.

One other note, flexlrpilot357. "If you can't argue with me point-by-point" a quote taken from an earlier reply. I haven't seen you fully disect any post on this message board and argue other people's points - point by point. Instead, you pick only the points that you can argue, and then attack the author with patronizing or condescending remarks. You chastized me for being "vulgar" in a previous post when I used a profane word that was censored by the board. It wasn't directed at anyone, it wasn't a personal attack, and it wasn't used to belittle anyone or their views. I think that your behavior and attitude does nothing but discredit your views and opinions.

If you want to have a reasonable and respectful discussion on a point-by-point basis concerning the possible pros and cons of a union on the property - then let's do it. If you want this to be a "wrestling match", then we can do that too.... but this thread will become more entertainment than informative.

 

[flexlrpilot357]

flexlrpilot357. "If you can't argue with me point-by-point" a quote taken from an earlier reply. I haven't seen you fully disect any post on this message board and argue other people's points - point by point.

I have. I really have. you can back up within the recent threads, and go back a year. Interspersed between the points was a lot of dancing around and ranting and raving - because it's fun. If I couldn't do that here, I wouldn't bother writing at all. This isn't a UN debate. Anyway...

I'm not going to say that Flexjet pilots have no legitimate gripes, I'm not going to say I'd never like more pay, I'm not going to say that there's no room for improvement.

I'm paid the same way you are, and heck yes I want more.

Here's the fundamental difference in philosophies: I recognize that our problems can't really be solved by a union. A union isn't a cure-all for every whining gripe a pilot may have.

We've gained one voice as a pilot group.
Pigwhistles. We have a voice. Not always listened to, but check Webster under "management". Yeah, I happen to trust management because I understand their motivations. And given the circumstances, I think they're doing pretty well. Not perfect. But well enough that I don't see a truck driver charging into the mix as an improvement.

We've gained an enforceable contract.
I haven't been sitting around wishing I had an enforceable contract. I've been sitting in an airplane wishing I was in bed. We play by the rules. If the rules change, fine. That's the definition of managing a company. I don't see why that's so evil. I don't feel put-upon.

paySure, I'll take seconds. I just don't think a union can get me much more, simple as that.

Protection against unfair/unjust termination. Furlough policy Really the same thing. I have never seen an unjust termination at Flexjet. If you think someone was singled out unfairly, you're ill-informed and alarmist. The out-of-seniority layoffs were a lucky day for the folks at the bottom of the list who deserved jobs more than those folks. Not that I'd do the same thing over again, because it is admittedly, controversial.

Scheduling/Training/Upgrade policies that respect seniority.
Publishing lines of flying to be bid on by seniority instead of PBS? Scheduling training by seniority might be nice. PBS is seniority based, it just takes the needs of the company first, then it plays by the rules. If you want it to take your needs ahead of the company needs, you're just trying to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. Please apply at NJA.

Personal days in addition to / in lieu of sick days?
More gateways?
Reduced cost / deductibles of health insurance?

Personal days would be nice. Though in an emergency, you can get time off. I've know first hand. Gateways... I doubt a union can secure those without losing something else. A union doesn't charge in and tell the company how to run things. Negotiation is just that, not a list of demands you plunk down. It's this-for-that. If you think it's easy, look across the street at NJA.

Scope? Stop other air carriers from buying shares in our company then turning around and profiting from them That's called responding to market forces. If it sells more shares, what's your deal? Don't like filling out 135 paperwork?

A "real" professional standards committee. Don't like the one we have now? Did you join it? What gripe do you have with it?
Better crew meals and/or the chance to pick our own every day? I'll vote for that, but I won't vote in the Teamsters. I'll vote in the Culinary Arts union.

Any other issue on the gripe list that wouldn't really cost the company much money, but would improve out quality of life? Why not just tell the company about those? If they're free, I see no reason why they'd kick you out the door. They're management, not slave drivers.

If you have any other questions about unions, ask Dave Gross. He knows firsthand, from both sides of the table.

What's the worst that could happen? We could vote in the Teamsters, negotiate, and come out with a contract that reflects the exact same pay and schedules that we currently have. Bummer.

And you've paid for the priviledge of meeting some gangster attorneys and getting nothing for your troubles. I'm too cheap for that. Thank you, drive through.

What's a more realistic scenario? We will win in the areas of pay and schedules and some combination of the other issues, it'll be a great baseline initial contract.

How do you know this? Sounds like this is what you want, not what you know.

 

[Live4flyng]

Old Wise One

Baby seal is back, you just don't hit hard enough.

And you've paid for the priviledge of meeting some gangster attorneys and getting nothing for your troubles. I'm too cheap for that. Thank you, drive through.

I won't argue that you are cheap, you have to be with the money you make. By the way, what kind of an attorney do you get with your money?

If you want it to take your needs ahead of the company needs, you're just trying to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. Please apply at NJA.

He is right, you should apply to NJA. Who would want to fly with a guy who only cares about himself? The superior intellect, (flexlrpilot357) who knows everything about nothing.

 

[flexlrpilot357]

Who would want to fly with a guy who only cares about himself? The superior intellect, (flexlrpilot357) who knows everything about nothing.

Well, that's just silly, Live4flyng (will somebody buy him a vowel?) I'll have you know that my crew comes FIRST!

But that has nothing to do with what I see as a realistic view of the value of the Teamsters. I just don't think they're worth a plugged nickel, and none of you foaming-mouth zombies has said one cogent thing to change my mind. (Except for picking my own meals. Think Emeril will start a local?)

I care about the health of my company - because that's how I'll keep my job, get more money, and that's how our F/Os will be upgraded. The health of the company is not going to benefit by a slick union guy who promises me the moon and the stars for only 3% of my pay! It's a big racket! A sham. That's the real Kool-Aid, brutha!

Pugnacious G:

12x17=204 work days/yr on the union 17 day schedule
12x15.2=182 " union 7&7 schedule

13x17=221 " non-union 17 day schedule

Yeah, I get paid for 221 days if that's what I choose to work. (It usually is, sometimes more.) But check this out, I know this will tie your lace panties in a big knot if you can wrap your melon around it:

If I want to work 204 days (your union 17 day schedule), then I bid for 15 and 16 day lines. It's called "Fun with Multiplication and Division", I really recommend you pick it up!

So what's the big difference? The number of bid periods? Is it really that important that the bid calendar matches the Gregorian calendar? That's pretty anal, Rain Man.

I can also work a lot less, if that's what I want, all the way down to 14/28 days. So what's your point? We all get paid per day, right? And we can all vary the amount of days we work. So how is paying the Teamsters better?

Ya humiliated yet?

 

[fuzzydice]

14 days?

I can also work a lot less, if that's what I want, all the way down to 14/28 days.

I'm willing to bet that you don't ever bid less than 17 days, so you might not be aware that that's easier said than done.

I have always bid for less than 17 days, and I have never received it - "due to demand." But I'm in the middle of the seniority list in my seat in my fleet.

Unverified, but heard from a trustworthy source, the #1 seniority pilot in the company bid for 15 days and received a 17 day line - due to demand.

Either you're wrong in assuming and asserting that you can "work a lot less, " or there were reduced lines awarded that somehow disregarded that gentleman's seniority.

 

[Diesel]

what percentages of the schedule have 15 day lines? What percentages of the schedule has 18day lines. Schedules like that?

Sure you could be able to bid 15 day lines but if there is only one line then what's the point of bidding it. Unless your number one in the senority list then everything is great.

At NJA 50 percent of captains and FO's can hold the 7/7 which works out to 14 days a month.

The rest of the crews are on the 17 day schedule. Unless they choose to go on the flex. I've got a buddy on that schedule and he's only working 18 days a month for a nice bump in the pay to make up for the extra work.

I'm sick and tired of hearing flexer keep calling the union full of gangsters and thugs. The teamsters are the only one who wanted us at the time. No union is perfect but the teamsters themselves are pouring a lot of money into our negotiations. The national is helping to pay for our lawyers and provide hardware for our mec.

You calling the teamsters thugs and criminals goes to show how little you know about organized labor.