Flexjet?

[ductleak]

APPRECIATE IT!

Thanks for your help! I appreciate it! You are all helping me!

 

[WileE]

18 day bids?

That's just over 10 days a month! That's pretty crappy. I got better than that flying for a regional. I didn't realize that they were that bad there. Makes me like my week off twice a month even more.

 

[vixin]

The flying is great!!

The crews are great with 1 or 2 exceptions!

The company could be if management didnt have that treat the pilots like cr@p attitude. They dont ask the pilots they tell!! Then they make it sound like they have done such a great job. HAHA!! They brag how they havent downgraded anyone and they feel as though they accomplished something. Well they have. They have pi55ed off just about every pilot here even most of the koolaid drinker's. Those of us that are SR are'nt affected. The 20 captains that keep their pay are the ones to be thankful. None of the FO's have any loyalty to Flexjet and I cannot blame them. This is the ONLY frac to furlough(2 times).

 

[Heavy Set]

Does Flexjet still hire FOs directly into the 604s? How often does that happen now? When will the Challenger 300 flying begin and will FOs be hired directly into that or come from other fleets?

If you have to sit on an aircraft for awhile, I'd rather it be a 604 or 300...

 

[vixin]

I am not sure where the new hires have been or will be placed. I am sure that Flexjet WILL slap the poor FO's in the face again and hire into the 604 and 300. Flexjet does not care about the FO's. The only reason they are here is because they are required. If they could MEL the occupation of the right seat they would, to make their bottom line "look better". If you think that sitting as an FO in the challengers would be better think again. Beside being under paid for that equipment, there is a good deal of animosity for the JR FO's in those seats. However, you can get the Challenger type and leave for a better job like most have.

 

[WileE]

Gunfyter.

Certainly sounds like FJ needs a union over there a lot more than FO does. I'll agree with you there. It then begs the questions whether the IBT is knocking on their door as well. From the posts it sounds like they might be more receptive of them than FO is right now.

 

[flyboycpa]

Re: Gunfyter.

.

 

[Lear70]

Flexjet has always been about treating the pilots like crap, ever since AA bailed and Bombardier took control back. The next week, everyone who had been allowed to live out of base was told "Move to Dallas or find another job". Several more QOL issues followed in those short weeks, and people started bailing big-time. Walegir was the last decent management person in that office!

As far as 18-day schedules: that's what it used to be anyway (6 on 4 off fixed rotations), and the OT rate was $400 a day. For a short time in Dec, Jan, and Feb of 98 it was $1,000 a day, but the new mgmt team put a nix on that plan and chartered out everything they couldn't staff pilots for (which cost them MORE in the long run - brilliant).

My favorite was getting "lost" by crew scheduling in TEB or FLL at the Bahia Mar for four days, then calling up asking for travel home. I hear they've gotten a little better at tracking crews now, but it was amusing for a while...

The pilots at Flexjet are top-notch, no doubt about it, but they desperately need union representation on property and they need to start NOW... it will take some time to get an agreement on property and their entire strategy from day one has only been to be "in the black" for operating costs, with the sole purpose TO SELL AIRCRAFT, but it seems they might have more in store sometime soon... too early to tell, but some odd rumors coming out of corporate.

Good luck to all of you, I really miss the corporate flying, but don't miss the hassles of rules that change daily by memo, voicemail, or phone call. For the original poster of the thread, I've done both Flexjet and the regionals, and my advice is if you have a solid job at a regional, I wouldn't touch Flexjet with a 10 foot pole. Hold out for Netjets or Options if you really want into the Fractional game.

 

[flexlrpilot357]

What a bunch of pathetic sour grapes and half-truths. I won't spend the time to answer everything wrong with the previous posts, but I'll throw a little truth into the mix.

Yes, the monthly median schedule is now 18 days, up from the standard 17. That means you can work anywhere from 16-20 days, 18 being the median value. This is due to demand during our peak season. For a while this summer, is was possible to work 14 days (per 28 day bid month). All days worked over 17 during this peak demand time are paid at the overtime rate.

Far from an example of slave-driving, this is simply smart crewing. We've found demand to have seasonal peaks and valleys, what's the best way to meet those? Hire and furlough? Bad idea, that's unpopular, unfair, and an (admitted) failure on the part of management.

Hire extra people and let them sit unneeded during the slow months? Yeah, pilot's dream... great idea, unless you're paying for it.

Increase and decrease the number of work-days required, and then pay the days worked over 17 (the typical median) at the overtime rate? There ya go... smart and fair. If you can't see that, I can't help you.

The schedule: (you could have researched this from previous posts) 28 day bid month, min 3 days off (unless you waive) max 7 days on - after which you can force 4 off. The lines have ranged from 14 to 19 days per month. Perfect? No, but it suits.

Fired out of seniority? Yeah, I guess it's happened. I don't miss the guys who were let go, and I'm glad the deserving guys at the bottom of the list were spared at their expense. Fair? Sure, why not? I'd rather reward competence than seniority when it comes time to chop. Unions only reward mediocrity, and they've done a hell of a lot of good for NJA and the health of the airlines.

Upgrades? Been a while, would like to see them start again. That's a function of the economy. It's stupid to upgrade more captains than you need. Unless they're paid less, I guess.

Beside being under paid for that equipment, there is a good deal of animosity for the JR FO's in those seats.

...if I felt that way I sure wouldn't admit it to anyone.

BTW, Like it or not, Flexjet is surely the most efficiently run fractional.

 

[Diesel]

most efficient?

Hire till you furlough. Furlough till you have to hire?

That's a great way to run a company.

Of vixin regarding your crew per airplane... Is that before or after furloughs?

 

[Lear70]

BTW, Like it or not, Flexjet is surely the most efficiently run fractional.

ROFLMFAO!!! That has to be one of the most asinine statements I think I've seen on this board. Judging by your profile of "right of center", you weren't at Flexjet during the years it really took shape (96-99) when it was one of the best jobs I've ever had... until management got creative. If you talk to the people who were there during that time and compare it to what it is today, you'll find a VAST disparity that is not improving anytime soon.

As far as discussing what organized labor has done for pilot groups at other airlines, I suggest you educate yourself... Pilot labor costs are one of the smaller pieces of the puzzle and have nothing to do with the problems at either EJA or the majors. If you really want an education, start a different thread and ask questions under the "majors" section, or simply start watching some of the better investment columns such as CBSMarketWatch.com, etc. I also believe you'll be surprised about Netjets when they do sign a new contract... But now to your quote:

If Flexjet is "the most efficiently run fractional", why are they the only fractional to have EVER laid off pilots? Why do the pilots at just about every other fractional RAVE about their program, when Flexjet pilots are, for the most part, negative about the company overall? Why are you one of the few favorable voices among a chorus of mediocrity?

Like I said, from someone who has done just about everything this world has to offer in aviation except for expat flying or a major airline position, Flexjet isn't the best, it isn't the worst, and it CERTAINLY is NOT "the most efficiently run fractional", but it's someplace better than most 135 ops to hang your hat until either they improve, or the economy improves overall and you can move on.

 

[Da Man]

BTW, Like it or not, Flexjet is surely the most efficiently run fractional.

Why do you say that? What are they doing that is so efficient operationally?

Just curious.

 

[flexlrpilot357]

Hire till you furlough. Furlough till you have to hire?

They're not doing that anymore. That's why the median is now 18 days. Understand? They're not hiring to cover higher demand, they're having (some) pilots work more days to cover higher demand.

Lear 70: You're quite mistaken, friend. I was at Flexjet in those days, when money was blowing out the door, we had every weekend off at the Bahia del Mar, and you could haggle over what you'd be paid for an overtime day. Don't misunderstand me, that was great fun, I loved the idea of a semi-working vacation... But I don't know why you're confusing a cushy job where you had lots of time at the beach and could twist the company's arm for $1000 OT days with a company that's running efficiently and has long term viability. If we were still doing that, we'd all be workin' at Home Depot wondering what happened to our great deal.

Efficiency, to me at least, means wise and cost-effective utilization of resources. Like it or not, believe it or not, that's something Flexjet does very well, and the numbers (which are black in color) prove it.

Oh, ya think black numbers aren't important, as long as the company makes you feel warm inside? Ask a furloughee from USAir or UAL if he wishes his ex-employer was profitable and not billions of dollars in debt. It's great to have a nice, cushy job, but you'd better worry about the financial health of the company if you want to keep that job. If you can't see that, I can't help you.

Efficient operation may include, unfortunately, trimming excess (expensive) resources when needed. As I said before, that's a horrible thing to have to do, and I believe our mgmt. has learned its lesson from the ~30 furloughs this year (some recently hired back). Hence, the change in workdays worked. Work a little more when needed, work a little less when it's slow. That sounds pretty efficient to me. That's reacting to and planning for changes in the business environment. That's good management. Hey - doesn't Netjets pay a bunch of FOs a Captain's salary? How is that efficient?

Even from talking to Netjets pilots, I can tell that their system is much less efficient (though perhaps shortsightedly more popular) than ours. Crewing pilots from a multitude of cities all over the country takes time and costs a lot of money. That ain't efficient. That's got Santulli wringing his hands.

Why do you think management tabled the idea of having NJ folks travel on their own time? It's easy. If company X has a more efficient operation, and spend less money on things like travel, then they can pass savings on to owners. Owners don't get rich by spending money they don't have to, so the cheaper deal looks better to them. Netjets has to react to this somehow, including tightening up the belt. They have to compete in the marketplace, where size isn't everything. (Just ask UAL - another big company that's very expensive to run)

If Netjets doesn't get costs under control, look out. Uncle Warren isn't going to run over with bags of cash and save it. He's not a benevolent old fool willing to throw good money after bad. He's a shrewd businessman and investor who recognizes VALUE. He drives a Towncar, not a Bentley.

 

[Stinkbug]

700 hours per year?

Sorry if this is getting off the subject a bit, but do you guys actually fly 6-700 hours per year? Sounds like a lot for a 7 and 7 schedule.

 

[flexlrpilot357]

If I understand the way you explained your work schedule...

My apologies, Gunfyter, I must not have explained it well enough. Our normal work month is from 15-19 days, 17 is considered the standard. During the summer, I know folks who were working 14. During peak it appears possible to work 20. Not my cup of tea, mind you, but it's there.

Before you get your abacus out and multiply how many days of work that is (221 median), don't forget to take into account vacations - which are roughly two weeks long - and training.

Including 3 vacation periods (4@10 yr anniversary), and training, I can fly less than 200 (~194) days in a year for full pay (17 days). Workdays (including training) are slightly over 200 (~205). In a few years I'll be able to fly less than 190 days/yr for "full" pay.

To use your office worker example, 5 days x 52 weeks is 260 days, subtract whatever vacations/holidays you like. If that sounds better to you, you're welcome to it. I'm not sweatin'.