Flexjet?

[WileE]

Gunfyter.

Certainly sounds like FJ needs a union over there a lot more than FO does. I'll agree with you there. It then begs the questions whether the IBT is knocking on their door as well. From the posts it sounds like they might be more receptive of them than FO is right now.

 

[flyboycpa]

Re: Gunfyter.

.

 

[Lear70]

Flexjet has always been about treating the pilots like crap, ever since AA bailed and Bombardier took control back. The next week, everyone who had been allowed to live out of base was told "Move to Dallas or find another job". Several more QOL issues followed in those short weeks, and people started bailing big-time. Walegir was the last decent management person in that office!

As far as 18-day schedules: that's what it used to be anyway (6 on 4 off fixed rotations), and the OT rate was $400 a day. For a short time in Dec, Jan, and Feb of 98 it was $1,000 a day, but the new mgmt team put a nix on that plan and chartered out everything they couldn't staff pilots for (which cost them MORE in the long run - brilliant).

My favorite was getting "lost" by crew scheduling in TEB or FLL at the Bahia Mar for four days, then calling up asking for travel home. I hear they've gotten a little better at tracking crews now, but it was amusing for a while...

The pilots at Flexjet are top-notch, no doubt about it, but they desperately need union representation on property and they need to start NOW... it will take some time to get an agreement on property and their entire strategy from day one has only been to be "in the black" for operating costs, with the sole purpose TO SELL AIRCRAFT, but it seems they might have more in store sometime soon... too early to tell, but some odd rumors coming out of corporate.

Good luck to all of you, I really miss the corporate flying, but don't miss the hassles of rules that change daily by memo, voicemail, or phone call. For the original poster of the thread, I've done both Flexjet and the regionals, and my advice is if you have a solid job at a regional, I wouldn't touch Flexjet with a 10 foot pole. Hold out for Netjets or Options if you really want into the Fractional game.

 

[flexlrpilot357]

What a bunch of pathetic sour grapes and half-truths. I won't spend the time to answer everything wrong with the previous posts, but I'll throw a little truth into the mix.

Yes, the monthly median schedule is now 18 days, up from the standard 17. That means you can work anywhere from 16-20 days, 18 being the median value. This is due to demand during our peak season. For a while this summer, is was possible to work 14 days (per 28 day bid month). All days worked over 17 during this peak demand time are paid at the overtime rate.

Far from an example of slave-driving, this is simply smart crewing. We've found demand to have seasonal peaks and valleys, what's the best way to meet those? Hire and furlough? Bad idea, that's unpopular, unfair, and an (admitted) failure on the part of management.

Hire extra people and let them sit unneeded during the slow months? Yeah, pilot's dream... great idea, unless you're paying for it.

Increase and decrease the number of work-days required, and then pay the days worked over 17 (the typical median) at the overtime rate? There ya go... smart and fair. If you can't see that, I can't help you.

The schedule: (you could have researched this from previous posts) 28 day bid month, min 3 days off (unless you waive) max 7 days on - after which you can force 4 off. The lines have ranged from 14 to 19 days per month. Perfect? No, but it suits.

Fired out of seniority? Yeah, I guess it's happened. I don't miss the guys who were let go, and I'm glad the deserving guys at the bottom of the list were spared at their expense. Fair? Sure, why not? I'd rather reward competence than seniority when it comes time to chop. Unions only reward mediocrity, and they've done a hell of a lot of good for NJA and the health of the airlines.

Upgrades? Been a while, would like to see them start again. That's a function of the economy. It's stupid to upgrade more captains than you need. Unless they're paid less, I guess.

Beside being under paid for that equipment, there is a good deal of animosity for the JR FO's in those seats.

...if I felt that way I sure wouldn't admit it to anyone.

BTW, Like it or not, Flexjet is surely the most efficiently run fractional.

 

[Diesel]

most efficient?

Hire till you furlough. Furlough till you have to hire?

That's a great way to run a company.

Of vixin regarding your crew per airplane... Is that before or after furloughs?

 

[Lear70]

BTW, Like it or not, Flexjet is surely the most efficiently run fractional.

ROFLMFAO!!! That has to be one of the most asinine statements I think I've seen on this board. Judging by your profile of "right of center", you weren't at Flexjet during the years it really took shape (96-99) when it was one of the best jobs I've ever had... until management got creative. If you talk to the people who were there during that time and compare it to what it is today, you'll find a VAST disparity that is not improving anytime soon.

As far as discussing what organized labor has done for pilot groups at other airlines, I suggest you educate yourself... Pilot labor costs are one of the smaller pieces of the puzzle and have nothing to do with the problems at either EJA or the majors. If you really want an education, start a different thread and ask questions under the "majors" section, or simply start watching some of the better investment columns such as CBSMarketWatch.com, etc. I also believe you'll be surprised about Netjets when they do sign a new contract... But now to your quote:

If Flexjet is "the most efficiently run fractional", why are they the only fractional to have EVER laid off pilots? Why do the pilots at just about every other fractional RAVE about their program, when Flexjet pilots are, for the most part, negative about the company overall? Why are you one of the few favorable voices among a chorus of mediocrity?

Like I said, from someone who has done just about everything this world has to offer in aviation except for expat flying or a major airline position, Flexjet isn't the best, it isn't the worst, and it CERTAINLY is NOT "the most efficiently run fractional", but it's someplace better than most 135 ops to hang your hat until either they improve, or the economy improves overall and you can move on.

 

[Da Man]

BTW, Like it or not, Flexjet is surely the most efficiently run fractional.

Why do you say that? What are they doing that is so efficient operationally?

Just curious.

 

[flexlrpilot357]

Hire till you furlough. Furlough till you have to hire?

They're not doing that anymore. That's why the median is now 18 days. Understand? They're not hiring to cover higher demand, they're having (some) pilots work more days to cover higher demand.

Lear 70: You're quite mistaken, friend. I was at Flexjet in those days, when money was blowing out the door, we had every weekend off at the Bahia del Mar, and you could haggle over what you'd be paid for an overtime day. Don't misunderstand me, that was great fun, I loved the idea of a semi-working vacation... But I don't know why you're confusing a cushy job where you had lots of time at the beach and could twist the company's arm for $1000 OT days with a company that's running efficiently and has long term viability. If we were still doing that, we'd all be workin' at Home Depot wondering what happened to our great deal.

Efficiency, to me at least, means wise and cost-effective utilization of resources. Like it or not, believe it or not, that's something Flexjet does very well, and the numbers (which are black in color) prove it.

Oh, ya think black numbers aren't important, as long as the company makes you feel warm inside? Ask a furloughee from USAir or UAL if he wishes his ex-employer was profitable and not billions of dollars in debt. It's great to have a nice, cushy job, but you'd better worry about the financial health of the company if you want to keep that job. If you can't see that, I can't help you.

Efficient operation may include, unfortunately, trimming excess (expensive) resources when needed. As I said before, that's a horrible thing to have to do, and I believe our mgmt. has learned its lesson from the ~30 furloughs this year (some recently hired back). Hence, the change in workdays worked. Work a little more when needed, work a little less when it's slow. That sounds pretty efficient to me. That's reacting to and planning for changes in the business environment. That's good management. Hey - doesn't Netjets pay a bunch of FOs a Captain's salary? How is that efficient?

Even from talking to Netjets pilots, I can tell that their system is much less efficient (though perhaps shortsightedly more popular) than ours. Crewing pilots from a multitude of cities all over the country takes time and costs a lot of money. That ain't efficient. That's got Santulli wringing his hands.

Why do you think management tabled the idea of having NJ folks travel on their own time? It's easy. If company X has a more efficient operation, and spend less money on things like travel, then they can pass savings on to owners. Owners don't get rich by spending money they don't have to, so the cheaper deal looks better to them. Netjets has to react to this somehow, including tightening up the belt. They have to compete in the marketplace, where size isn't everything. (Just ask UAL - another big company that's very expensive to run)

If Netjets doesn't get costs under control, look out. Uncle Warren isn't going to run over with bags of cash and save it. He's not a benevolent old fool willing to throw good money after bad. He's a shrewd businessman and investor who recognizes VALUE. He drives a Towncar, not a Bentley.

 

[Stinkbug]

700 hours per year?

Sorry if this is getting off the subject a bit, but do you guys actually fly 6-700 hours per year? Sounds like a lot for a 7 and 7 schedule.

 

[flexlrpilot357]

If I understand the way you explained your work schedule...

My apologies, Gunfyter, I must not have explained it well enough. Our normal work month is from 15-19 days, 17 is considered the standard. During the summer, I know folks who were working 14. During peak it appears possible to work 20. Not my cup of tea, mind you, but it's there.

Before you get your abacus out and multiply how many days of work that is (221 median), don't forget to take into account vacations - which are roughly two weeks long - and training.

Including 3 vacation periods (4@10 yr anniversary), and training, I can fly less than 200 (~194) days in a year for full pay (17 days). Workdays (including training) are slightly over 200 (~205). In a few years I'll be able to fly less than 190 days/yr for "full" pay.

To use your office worker example, 5 days x 52 weeks is 260 days, subtract whatever vacations/holidays you like. If that sounds better to you, you're welcome to it. I'm not sweatin'.

 

[flexlrpilot357]

Gunfyter said:

What I protest is the claim by some that the union has not been beneficial to my situation...

Oh, well, if that's the question, you tell me: How much have you paid in union dues, and what concrete improvements have the Teamsters made in your life. Things that wouldn't have happened otherwise. Now tell me if they're worthwhile. What's the P/E ratio of the Teamsters? I betcha if you take a good, honest, objective view, you're not getting your money's worth.

 

[flexlrpilot357]

I am not working a boatload more days per year like you are... as I am sure I would be if it were not for the Teamsters.

Well, like I said previously, that's not true. I'm working more because I choose to, but I could work a whole lot less if I wanted to.

I am commuting to Dallas instead of Columbus (as I was when I started)... and as I would be if NJA management followed FLEX's lead in having pilots all fly out of HomePlate

That's costing you, because it costs the company, and like it or not, you are intrinsically tied to the health of the company. You may not see it now, but that expense will cost the company, and that will be passed on to you. The piggy bank is only so big.

Your union dues may cost me less than medical, but I'm getting something for medical. You're having a hard time showing me what you're getting for "Union Representation".

I wasn't Furloughed out of Seniority...

I don't feel sorry for the very few people who got furloughed out of seniority from Flex. They would have/should have been fired anyway, for sucking real bad, and they got a better deal by getting "furloughed".

As for the $500 you get for scheduling errors... Who was asking why I think Flexjet is so efficient?? Two years of hard work... which will culminate in no raise and you flying to work on your own time? That's what I'm hearin'!

I think you just get warm fuzzies by paying the Teamsters, which is fine. Not for me though.

 

[Live4flyng]

That's costing you, because it costs the company, and like it or not, you are intrinsically tied to the health of the company. You may not see it now, but that expense will cost the company, and that will be passed on to you. The piggy bank is only so big.

That is where you are wrong flexlrpilot357, it actually saves the company money by having gateways all over the country. If all the pilots were based in Columbus, it would be a logistics nightmare. By having pilots like Gunfyter in Dallas, he shows up at the FBO and jumps in the X, otherwise, he would have had to been airlined to DAL from CMH.

I don't feel sorry for the very few people who got furloughed out of seniority from Flex.

This is exactly how management thinks too, and those pilots have no recourse unlike pilots who are represented.

The way I see it, the company's health is intrinsically tied to managements leadership, or lack there of.

 

[Live4flyng]

Efficiency?

Efficiency, to me at least, means wise and cost-effective utilization of resources. Like it or not, believe it or not, that's something Flexjet does very well

flexlrpilot357 might not be management after all, he obviously doesn't know much about Fractionals. If he did, he would have know that the more airplanes you have, the more efficient your operation becomes. Less time ferrying airplanes for the next trip = your statement above (EFFICIENCY)! You compare NJA to UAL as if NJA is trying to get too big too fast, two completely different business models and profit margins.

Efficient operation may include, unfortunately, trimming excess (expensive) resources when needed.

This is a good one, sounds just like a junior manager talking. I love the qualifier "when needed". Here is a new concept, if it were an efficient operation then you wouldn't have to trim excess. Does the term furlough ring the efficiency bell here?

Even from talking to Netjets pilots, I can tell that their system is much less efficient

Did you know the union created a travel committee that has reduced costs for the company while improving the quality of hotels for the pilots? What have you done to improve efficiency at your company? Nod your head yes to everything management asks you to do including furloughing out of seniority? Nod your head yes!

Hey - doesn't Netjets pay a bunch of FOs a Captain's salary? How is that efficient?

Yep, NJA only hires captains. The minimums are higher at NJA then they are at most carriers; ATP, 2500TT, 500ME, and all pilots are typed. But don't confuse safety with efficiency, remember who started this whole fractional business? Do you ever wonder why NJA does not operate Lears or Challengers? Ever hear the story about Santulli bringing his fractional idea to Bombardier and them laughing him out of the room? I'm pretty sure he knows all about "competiton in the marketplace".

 

[Diesel]

after flying with many former flexer's i learned this about KASE operations.

At flexjet you have to have a reason not to operate into and out of ASE.

At NJA and FLOPS you have to give a reason why you CAN operate out of KASE.

All I know is how many flex planes do we see on the road? I'll never forget what one flexer crew said to me in the elevator at the crowne in hpn.

I said to him, "I'd do anything to make the money you guys make."

The Flexer pilot turned to me and said, "I'd do the same to have your contract."

It's a true story. I was new at NJA and didn't understand what he ment

Eddited because my spelling sucks

 

[fuzzydice]

First off, I apologize to the Netjets folks for posting about my company in their thread, I'm moving back into my own territory.

"Fuzzy, I suggest that you take the money that you'd spend on trucker gangsters and shyster labor attorneys and give it to a shrink, or better yet, invest it. It'll get you a lot further."

Funny that you mention that, because I probablty will be using those funds on a shrink if the continuing downward trend in quality of life at Flex continues and our pilot group is unable to recognize the benefits of representation and obtaining a collective bargaining agreement.

"Hire till you furlough. Furlough till you have to hire? - They're not doing that anymore."

Says who? Is there some secret binding contract between us and the company that says they won't? If they decide they need to furlough after this busy winter period, do you think they'll balk simply because they put out a voice mail explaining that they are trying to avoid it by changing our schedules? What if sales are down during the next couple of quarters and the company decides to furlough some pilots AND keep the monthly schedules at 18 days? Can they do that? Sure... We work for an "at will" employer - and they can do anything they want. Would it make financial sense for them? You bet!

"Our normal work month is from 15-19 days".

I take issue with your terminology. We don't have monthly bid periods, our bid periods span 28 days. So if you want to convert our 15-19 days per bid period to monthy numbers it would be 16.25 - 20.58. Now, let's update to the latest bidding options that have occured via voice mail: 16-20 days and that gives us 17.3 - 21.6 days a month. Not much difference in our new schedules and our neighbors next door at ADS - Cherry Air or Ameristar.

"Fuzzydice, in his emotional and vulgar tirade (***CENSORED***), expresses desire for a union because he's reached his breaking point from too many FOM revisions. If I felt that way, I sure wouldn't admit it to anyone. I feel like I'm beating up children here."

Well, do you read your FOM? I'm sure you do, you sound like you might possibly be one of the authors. The FOM contains sections concerning duty issues, expense reimbursement issues, gateways, issues that can cost me money or time. All of these things can be changed at the whim of management. I'd prefer that these issues be regulated through a collective bargaining agreement. It's not the actual process of revising the manual that bothers me, and I'm sorry that you feel like you have to try to beat anyone up.

"Hey - doesn't Netjets pay a bunch of FOs a Captain's salary? How is that efficient?"

That's really the pot calling the kettle black. Flex is so overstaffed with captains that we are basically doing the same thing. Numbers will probably even out more as the CL300 fleet grows.

flexlrpilot357: What is your experience with labor unions? Have you ever been a member of one?


Diesel:

"At flexjet you have to have a reason not to operate into and out of ASE.

At NJA and FLOPS you have to give a reason why you CAN operate out of KASE."

Out of any complaints about Flex I may have, safety is not one of them. I'm willing to bet that you and I both have very similiar, if not identical constraints on operations in Aspen.

 

[Diesel]

You could merge the nja and flexjet thread because they are both leading to the same place.

You can't unionize a group that doesn't want to unionize.

When I first came to NJA i was dead set against the union. My family has never been union men. the boss I worked for hated unions to the bone.

But... since the union is here I decided to make the best of it and make sure I helped in whatever capacity i can. I learned a lot about the true history and they are a necessary evil.

Some things that the union has but a block on, company credit cards, (our names are on the cards we are liable), vacation grievances, after midnight returns, the rental car debacle, our hotel comittee(we decide on our hotels), pro standards, and many more things that happen every day

As far as flexjet being efficient..... I don't think there are any fractionals that are efficient. I know nja isn't but they are trying to be. They are reaching that critical mass where they need to be. I'm sure flex has a long way to go.

 

[Semore Butts]

I wondered when you were gonna say somet

Merry Christmas 357!

I wondered how long it was gonna take for you to leap to Flex's defense.

I guess your about the only person I know that isn't fed up.

There are alot of good posts here.

Having been a "Flexo Jetto" pilot, I can give you at least my opinion of the 2 companies.

I like NJA alot better then I liked Flex. I stay in alot better hotels. I get to order what I want to eat. There is more of a variety of schedules available to fit an individuals needs. I have a set of written rules to go by in the form of a union contract.

Yes, our new and improved contract is moving slowly towards completion. That is an issue of constant turmoil among the pilots on the road. Hopefully it will help us all in the long run.

I have heard that Flex is putting people in better hotels these days, that's great, you deserve to be treated well on the road.

NJA has a hotel commitee that is constanly working with the different "chains" to help the pilots on the road. The hotel commitee "kicks ass"! Way to go!

It's time for church, gotta go. Just wanted you to know I'm doin well, take care, and for all my "buds" at Flex, have a great Christmas.

I am well, take care....

 

[flexlrpilot357]

Same old nonsense from you folks. They only concrete thing any of you mentioned was the ability to order your meals. I guess that is nice, I sure would like that. I do get sick of turkey... though we do have a few other delicious menu items.

Everything else you all said was either a simple matter of personal preference, expressed in vague terms, untrue, half true, or an example of the old "nanny-nanny-boo-boo" argument. Says a lot more about the writer than it does about either company. Doesn't fly with me.

The collective NJA posts sound like a pep rally, all of you trying to encourage each other to keep spirits up. That's a great example of company spirit. Hats off to you there.

A few notes:

No, I'm not management. Even if I was, so what? Would my fact-based arguments hold less water? Might as well say, "don't listen to him, I bet he's a jew!" Doesn't have anything to do with whether I'm right or wrong, but it's just as smart as the argument you're making.

My medical is ~$33.00/mo.

At flexjet you have to have a reason not to operate into and out of ASE.

At NJA and FLOPS you have to give a reason why you CAN operate out of KASE.

What the heck does that mean?

Fuzzy: I knew you'd go for the silly semantic arguments, because you're not capable of much else. I've already referred to the Flexjet 28-day bid period as a "bid month". I'm sure you can grant me license for that. Anyway, it doesn't matter, because we all use the same year. How you split it up is irrelevant.

The minimums are higher at NJA then they are at most carriers; ATP, 2500TT, 500ME, and all pilots are typed.

That's pretty much the norm at all frax, AFAIK. Are you going to tell me that you're just "better" next? Your pee-pee longer too?

Anyway, think about this, ya'all. The "pie" is only so big. From that pie salaries, benefits, travel expenses, and all other operational expenses must be paid. Spend more than is in the pie, company is losing money/incurring debt. (Think UAL) Want the pie to be bigger? Ok, charge more money. Ya'all remember what that does to demand, right?

By paying union dues, you've earned the priviledge of perhaps moving those pie slice lines a hair to the left or right. (Well, if your contract ever goes through that's what you'll be doing.) Want to spend more on hotels? Ok, well, have to spend less on medical.
If there are any reasonable folks on your committee, they'll have to agree with that. If they really think they're going to get you the sun and the moon and the stars (i.e. $150k/yr+ as one astute fellow assured me was inevitable), you're too stupid for words. There isn't that much money to be had. Ok, well maybe for just a few of you.

Fine, if you want to get your hands in that mess, I expect you're all smart enough to run your own fractionals, that's obvious by your posts. You're paying for that priviledge, which is the same as shrinking your slice of pie. For that, all you get is a piece of "socialist brotherhood" and "workers paradise" or whatever line the gangsters are feeding you nowdays.

Enjoy!

 

[Semore Butts]

357 is Graff????

Wow, that's rich! To think, I was gonna have a beer with him.

He says he isn't management? Well he was!