Flexjet?

[flexlrpilot357]

Gunfyter said:

What I protest is the claim by some that the union has not been beneficial to my situation...

Oh, well, if that's the question, you tell me: How much have you paid in union dues, and what concrete improvements have the Teamsters made in your life. Things that wouldn't have happened otherwise. Now tell me if they're worthwhile. What's the P/E ratio of the Teamsters? I betcha if you take a good, honest, objective view, you're not getting your money's worth.

 

[flexlrpilot357]

I am not working a boatload more days per year like you are... as I am sure I would be if it were not for the Teamsters.

Well, like I said previously, that's not true. I'm working more because I choose to, but I could work a whole lot less if I wanted to.

I am commuting to Dallas instead of Columbus (as I was when I started)... and as I would be if NJA management followed FLEX's lead in having pilots all fly out of HomePlate

That's costing you, because it costs the company, and like it or not, you are intrinsically tied to the health of the company. You may not see it now, but that expense will cost the company, and that will be passed on to you. The piggy bank is only so big.

Your union dues may cost me less than medical, but I'm getting something for medical. You're having a hard time showing me what you're getting for "Union Representation".

I wasn't Furloughed out of Seniority...

I don't feel sorry for the very few people who got furloughed out of seniority from Flex. They would have/should have been fired anyway, for sucking real bad, and they got a better deal by getting "furloughed".

As for the $500 you get for scheduling errors... Who was asking why I think Flexjet is so efficient?? Two years of hard work... which will culminate in no raise and you flying to work on your own time? That's what I'm hearin'!

I think you just get warm fuzzies by paying the Teamsters, which is fine. Not for me though.

 

[Live4flyng]

That's costing you, because it costs the company, and like it or not, you are intrinsically tied to the health of the company. You may not see it now, but that expense will cost the company, and that will be passed on to you. The piggy bank is only so big.

That is where you are wrong flexlrpilot357, it actually saves the company money by having gateways all over the country. If all the pilots were based in Columbus, it would be a logistics nightmare. By having pilots like Gunfyter in Dallas, he shows up at the FBO and jumps in the X, otherwise, he would have had to been airlined to DAL from CMH.

I don't feel sorry for the very few people who got furloughed out of seniority from Flex.

This is exactly how management thinks too, and those pilots have no recourse unlike pilots who are represented.

The way I see it, the company's health is intrinsically tied to managements leadership, or lack there of.

 

[Live4flyng]

Efficiency?

Efficiency, to me at least, means wise and cost-effective utilization of resources. Like it or not, believe it or not, that's something Flexjet does very well

flexlrpilot357 might not be management after all, he obviously doesn't know much about Fractionals. If he did, he would have know that the more airplanes you have, the more efficient your operation becomes. Less time ferrying airplanes for the next trip = your statement above (EFFICIENCY)! You compare NJA to UAL as if NJA is trying to get too big too fast, two completely different business models and profit margins.

Efficient operation may include, unfortunately, trimming excess (expensive) resources when needed.

This is a good one, sounds just like a junior manager talking. I love the qualifier "when needed". Here is a new concept, if it were an efficient operation then you wouldn't have to trim excess. Does the term furlough ring the efficiency bell here?

Even from talking to Netjets pilots, I can tell that their system is much less efficient

Did you know the union created a travel committee that has reduced costs for the company while improving the quality of hotels for the pilots? What have you done to improve efficiency at your company? Nod your head yes to everything management asks you to do including furloughing out of seniority? Nod your head yes!

Hey - doesn't Netjets pay a bunch of FOs a Captain's salary? How is that efficient?

Yep, NJA only hires captains. The minimums are higher at NJA then they are at most carriers; ATP, 2500TT, 500ME, and all pilots are typed. But don't confuse safety with efficiency, remember who started this whole fractional business? Do you ever wonder why NJA does not operate Lears or Challengers? Ever hear the story about Santulli bringing his fractional idea to Bombardier and them laughing him out of the room? I'm pretty sure he knows all about "competiton in the marketplace".

 

[Diesel]

after flying with many former flexer's i learned this about KASE operations.

At flexjet you have to have a reason not to operate into and out of ASE.

At NJA and FLOPS you have to give a reason why you CAN operate out of KASE.

All I know is how many flex planes do we see on the road? I'll never forget what one flexer crew said to me in the elevator at the crowne in hpn.

I said to him, "I'd do anything to make the money you guys make."

The Flexer pilot turned to me and said, "I'd do the same to have your contract."

It's a true story. I was new at NJA and didn't understand what he ment

Eddited because my spelling sucks

 

[fuzzydice]

First off, I apologize to the Netjets folks for posting about my company in their thread, I'm moving back into my own territory.

"Fuzzy, I suggest that you take the money that you'd spend on trucker gangsters and shyster labor attorneys and give it to a shrink, or better yet, invest it. It'll get you a lot further."

Funny that you mention that, because I probablty will be using those funds on a shrink if the continuing downward trend in quality of life at Flex continues and our pilot group is unable to recognize the benefits of representation and obtaining a collective bargaining agreement.

"Hire till you furlough. Furlough till you have to hire? - They're not doing that anymore."

Says who? Is there some secret binding contract between us and the company that says they won't? If they decide they need to furlough after this busy winter period, do you think they'll balk simply because they put out a voice mail explaining that they are trying to avoid it by changing our schedules? What if sales are down during the next couple of quarters and the company decides to furlough some pilots AND keep the monthly schedules at 18 days? Can they do that? Sure... We work for an "at will" employer - and they can do anything they want. Would it make financial sense for them? You bet!

"Our normal work month is from 15-19 days".

I take issue with your terminology. We don't have monthly bid periods, our bid periods span 28 days. So if you want to convert our 15-19 days per bid period to monthy numbers it would be 16.25 - 20.58. Now, let's update to the latest bidding options that have occured via voice mail: 16-20 days and that gives us 17.3 - 21.6 days a month. Not much difference in our new schedules and our neighbors next door at ADS - Cherry Air or Ameristar.

"Fuzzydice, in his emotional and vulgar tirade (***CENSORED***), expresses desire for a union because he's reached his breaking point from too many FOM revisions. If I felt that way, I sure wouldn't admit it to anyone. I feel like I'm beating up children here."

Well, do you read your FOM? I'm sure you do, you sound like you might possibly be one of the authors. The FOM contains sections concerning duty issues, expense reimbursement issues, gateways, issues that can cost me money or time. All of these things can be changed at the whim of management. I'd prefer that these issues be regulated through a collective bargaining agreement. It's not the actual process of revising the manual that bothers me, and I'm sorry that you feel like you have to try to beat anyone up.

"Hey - doesn't Netjets pay a bunch of FOs a Captain's salary? How is that efficient?"

That's really the pot calling the kettle black. Flex is so overstaffed with captains that we are basically doing the same thing. Numbers will probably even out more as the CL300 fleet grows.

flexlrpilot357: What is your experience with labor unions? Have you ever been a member of one?


Diesel:

"At flexjet you have to have a reason not to operate into and out of ASE.

At NJA and FLOPS you have to give a reason why you CAN operate out of KASE."

Out of any complaints about Flex I may have, safety is not one of them. I'm willing to bet that you and I both have very similiar, if not identical constraints on operations in Aspen.

 

[Diesel]

You could merge the nja and flexjet thread because they are both leading to the same place.

You can't unionize a group that doesn't want to unionize.

When I first came to NJA i was dead set against the union. My family has never been union men. the boss I worked for hated unions to the bone.

But... since the union is here I decided to make the best of it and make sure I helped in whatever capacity i can. I learned a lot about the true history and they are a necessary evil.

Some things that the union has but a block on, company credit cards, (our names are on the cards we are liable), vacation grievances, after midnight returns, the rental car debacle, our hotel comittee(we decide on our hotels), pro standards, and many more things that happen every day

As far as flexjet being efficient..... I don't think there are any fractionals that are efficient. I know nja isn't but they are trying to be. They are reaching that critical mass where they need to be. I'm sure flex has a long way to go.

 

[Semore Butts]

I wondered when you were gonna say somet

Merry Christmas 357!

I wondered how long it was gonna take for you to leap to Flex's defense.

I guess your about the only person I know that isn't fed up.

There are alot of good posts here.

Having been a "Flexo Jetto" pilot, I can give you at least my opinion of the 2 companies.

I like NJA alot better then I liked Flex. I stay in alot better hotels. I get to order what I want to eat. There is more of a variety of schedules available to fit an individuals needs. I have a set of written rules to go by in the form of a union contract.

Yes, our new and improved contract is moving slowly towards completion. That is an issue of constant turmoil among the pilots on the road. Hopefully it will help us all in the long run.

I have heard that Flex is putting people in better hotels these days, that's great, you deserve to be treated well on the road.

NJA has a hotel commitee that is constanly working with the different "chains" to help the pilots on the road. The hotel commitee "kicks ass"! Way to go!

It's time for church, gotta go. Just wanted you to know I'm doin well, take care, and for all my "buds" at Flex, have a great Christmas.

I am well, take care....

 

[flexlrpilot357]

Same old nonsense from you folks. They only concrete thing any of you mentioned was the ability to order your meals. I guess that is nice, I sure would like that. I do get sick of turkey... though we do have a few other delicious menu items.

Everything else you all said was either a simple matter of personal preference, expressed in vague terms, untrue, half true, or an example of the old "nanny-nanny-boo-boo" argument. Says a lot more about the writer than it does about either company. Doesn't fly with me.

The collective NJA posts sound like a pep rally, all of you trying to encourage each other to keep spirits up. That's a great example of company spirit. Hats off to you there.

A few notes:

No, I'm not management. Even if I was, so what? Would my fact-based arguments hold less water? Might as well say, "don't listen to him, I bet he's a jew!" Doesn't have anything to do with whether I'm right or wrong, but it's just as smart as the argument you're making.

My medical is ~$33.00/mo.

At flexjet you have to have a reason not to operate into and out of ASE.

At NJA and FLOPS you have to give a reason why you CAN operate out of KASE.

What the heck does that mean?

Fuzzy: I knew you'd go for the silly semantic arguments, because you're not capable of much else. I've already referred to the Flexjet 28-day bid period as a "bid month". I'm sure you can grant me license for that. Anyway, it doesn't matter, because we all use the same year. How you split it up is irrelevant.

The minimums are higher at NJA then they are at most carriers; ATP, 2500TT, 500ME, and all pilots are typed.

That's pretty much the norm at all frax, AFAIK. Are you going to tell me that you're just "better" next? Your pee-pee longer too?

Anyway, think about this, ya'all. The "pie" is only so big. From that pie salaries, benefits, travel expenses, and all other operational expenses must be paid. Spend more than is in the pie, company is losing money/incurring debt. (Think UAL) Want the pie to be bigger? Ok, charge more money. Ya'all remember what that does to demand, right?

By paying union dues, you've earned the priviledge of perhaps moving those pie slice lines a hair to the left or right. (Well, if your contract ever goes through that's what you'll be doing.) Want to spend more on hotels? Ok, well, have to spend less on medical.
If there are any reasonable folks on your committee, they'll have to agree with that. If they really think they're going to get you the sun and the moon and the stars (i.e. $150k/yr+ as one astute fellow assured me was inevitable), you're too stupid for words. There isn't that much money to be had. Ok, well maybe for just a few of you.

Fine, if you want to get your hands in that mess, I expect you're all smart enough to run your own fractionals, that's obvious by your posts. You're paying for that priviledge, which is the same as shrinking your slice of pie. For that, all you get is a piece of "socialist brotherhood" and "workers paradise" or whatever line the gangsters are feeding you nowdays.

Enjoy!

 

[Semore Butts]

357 is Graff????

Wow, that's rich! To think, I was gonna have a beer with him.

He says he isn't management? Well he was!

 

[Pugnacious G]

Bollocks

Yo Flexlrpilot357,

I probably wouldn't go around outing people on the message board, but if you are who my brother Xdriver claims than sorry.... You deserve it.

No, I'm not management. Even if I was, so what? Would my fact-based arguments hold less water? Might as well say, "don't listen to him, I bet he's a jew!"

If it's a lie than why should anyone listen to one word of your anti-labor propaganda.

I've already referred to the Flexjet 28-day bid period as a "bid month". I'm sure you can grant me license for that. Anyway, it doesn't matter, because we all use the same year. How you split it up is irrelevant.

Irrelevant? You work 13 bid periods. Us union brothers work 12. Even the unfortunate 17-day guys like myself work 17 days less than you each year. Our 7&7 guys work so many fewer days than you that perhaps they're overpaid. That's far from irrelevant. It's a huge quality of life difference. So are the food and the hotels and the big brother with the bat sitting next to you when the man tries to spank your pee pee. (metephorically speaking)

Anyway, think about this, ya'all. The "pie" is only so big. From that pie salaries, benefits, travel expenses, and all other operational expenses must be paid. Spend more than is in the pie, company is losing money/incurring debt. (Think UAL) Want the pie to be bigger? Ok, charge more money. Ya'all remember what that does to demand, right?

Wow there are two HUGE peices of the pie that you forgot to include there friend: MANAGEMENT SALARIES, CORPORATE PROFITS. I think we must have close to 500 VP's and Chief B/S Officers over here whose salaries are ripe for the picking. I have no idea how your company is doing but I'm not worried about putting mine out of business one bit. As much money as we waste every day(and it's got to be huge) we're still far better off than UAL or US-Scare. Our profits are all reinvested in things like overseas expansion, buying the Seagrams hangar in HPN and oh yeah, the NetJets Breeders Cup. Then they tell the press: "Gosh we're not even breaking even."

Folks it's all a big game. Guys like Flexlr357 just don't play for the same team as PILOTS like you and me. The only fact that y'all should care about is this: all frac pilots are underpaid.

SEND IN YOUR UNION CARDS! Together we can make a difference!

 

[flexlrpilot357]

Ha, fantastic! You can't beat me in the ring, so you try to unmask me. This is playing out just like a 1980's B-Grade saturday afternoon wrestling match. Who is Mr. Wrestling #2?

My identity is really irrelevant to the discussion, though I have to admit being mistaken for Mr. Graff is quite a compliment. What a bright fella. Borderline brilliant, I'd say!

If you can't argue with me point-by-point, and must resort to name calling, personal attacks, and virtual "unmasking", then you're really an idiot with an opinion, and nothing else. But I can't really blame you. If I make you feel like such a pathetic wretch that your eye makeup runs and you get distracted and spill tea all over your dollies, well then I understand, I'd be mad at me too.

Back to beating up puppies:

Irrelevant? You work 13 bid periods. Us union brothers work 12.

("Us" union brothers? Nevermind...) So what? You can have 365 bid period, each lasting one day. I bet you were the kid in the psychology textbook who was happy if his mac and cheese was in a big pile on a little plate, and unhappy if his mac and cheese (same amount, btw) was spread out over a large dinner plate. What's important here is how much you're paid per day.

As much money as we waste every day(and it's got to be huge)

Remember when I was talking about efficiency? Man, you make all my arguments for me!

Guys like Flexlr357 just don't play for the same team as PILOTS like you and me.

That's right! Guys like Flexlr357 are vampires who shun all that is good and just! They feed off of the blood of the living, and steal our women! They poison the well and ruin our crops!

all frac pilots are underpaid

By what ruler? Your mom tell you that, or did you just decide how much you're worth? If you decided how much you're worth, then why isn't it more? I'm interested!

XDriver: Really impressive emotional tirade. You should write for the soap operas. Seriously!

 

[flexlrpilot357]

live4flyng:

I wasn't ignoring you, but I almost forgot to reply! Right after you snorted the cherry Jell-O, You either babbled something about your blanky or

That is where you are wrong flexlrpilot357,
it actually saves the company money by having gateways all over the country.

Less time ferrying airplanes for the next trip = your statement above (EFFICIENCY)!

Oh, you are such a treat to me! You're like clubbing a baby seal with a blue whale. You've obviously done time at MIT teaching postgraduate mathematics, so for the benefit of our readers, let's carry your theories of fractional efficiency on to their logical conclusion.

You base enough airplanes so you never have to do a ferry flight (because if less ferrying is more efficient, then NEVER ferrying is MOST efficient, right??), and spread the crews across the country really thin too... Let's crew them at each airport where airplanes are.

Four crews for each airplane, ok? One crew works, and the other three are off, since you all work only 3 months/year. (Until the next contract, when you have 6 crews watching the one crew work, and two other crews out on disability for "back injuries". That's the hallmark of Teamster efficiency, right?)

So, there's roughly 5,000 airports we fly to in the US? And you have how many types of airplanes? 6 or so? So, 5,000 x 6 acft types x 8 pilots. Man, we are getting EFFICIENT here, I can feel it!

Ok, you need 240,000 pilots and 30,000 airplanes so you can avoid inefficient position flights. But that's not going to work if you have multiples of the same type leaving the same airport.

Or maybe doing a certain amount of positioning is optimum, as is crewing in strategic locations? Nah! Nevermind.

 

[Pugnacious G]

What was your point exactly?

Oh, I get it,

FlexJet is the best place anyone could ever hope to work and BTW it's also the most efficiently managed corporation that ever existed. Well, good for you. I'm happy that you feel that way. I'll tell my buddy who works there what you've said and I'm sure he'll be pleased as punch too.


I think one of my BROTHERS already did this math above but here goes:

12x17=204 work days/yr on the union 17 day schedule
12x15.2=182 " union 7&7 schedule

13x17=221 " non-union 17 day schedule

And yes we subtract 2,3, or 4 weeks vacation from the above based on years of service. And yes you still get paid more because you work more. You may even make a tad more each work day. Unlike you, my union is keeping me home with my family more and they're negotiating a pay scale that should pay me substantially more than you in a day. And since, according to you, the profit margin at Flex is so tight, I guess you'll never get another raise. But you're ecstatic. And I'm happy for you.

I have decided for myself (and my mommy agrees with me) that I'm substantially underpaid and that's why I support my union 100%. You have decided that if they paid you another cent, Flex would perish and you're happy with that and again, I'm happy for you.

Oh goody, you want to talk about the gateways that our union didn't even have to fight for to get (But they did guarantee in writing). The truth (I'm not afraid of it)is that EJA opened gateways to attract pilots. Since you obviously ARE teaching postgraduate math at MIT: explain to me how airlining pilots out of 29 or 100 or 500 gateways costs Santulli any more that airlining the same number of pilots out of one base. There's still only a few planes and even fewer passengers in CMH on any given day. Are the laws of physics somehow different in Dallas?

Now, for the VAST MAJORITY out there. Don't you feel that you're worth more? If so send in those cards!

All frac pilots are underpaid and all frac co's are inefficient.

 

[fuzzydice]

flexlrpilot357,

Admittedly, I'm not Einstein and I'm not a great orator or writer. I'm just the average-joe, dumb as a rock line pilot - and I really have a hard time getting my brain around your posts. What is your motivation? Obviously you don't favor a union at Flex, but why? If you're not management, I'm not sure why you are so concerned about the company's position.

Unless you're in senior management, i.e. the CFO, I don't think you are qualified to talk about the pie, the size of the pie, or even the flavor of the pie. Obviously, the proverbial pie exists, but I highly doubt that the details are disclosed to you on how it's divided or how big it is. We're under the impression that we teter on the edge of profitability every quarter, but how do we know that for sure? How many times has smoke been blown up our tailpipes? Let's sit down with the company and bargain and see what we can get. I promise you that Flex won't agree to something they can't afford. We're not trying to break the bank, we're just trying to raise the bar a bit.

What's the worst that could happen? We could vote in the Teamsters, negotiate, and come out with a contract that reflects the exact same pay and schedules that we currently have. Bummer. What have we gained?

We've gained one voice as a pilot group.
We've gained an enforceable contract.
Maybe we'll be unsucessful on improving pay and schedules because the "pie" wasn't big enough... however we can gain in other areas such as:

Protection against unfair/unjust termination.
Furlough policy
Scheduling/Training/Upgrade policies that respect seniority.
Publishing lines of flying to be bid on by seniority instead of PBS?
Personal days in addition to / in lieu of sick days?
More gateways?
Reduced cost / deductibles of health insurance?
Scope? Stop other air carriers from buying shares in our company then turning around and profiting from them
Hotel committee.
A "real" professional standards committee.
Better crew meals and/or the chance to pick our own every day?
Parking reimbursements that actually cover our parking expense?
Any other issue on the gripe list that wouldn't really cost the company much money, but would improve out quality of life?

What's a more realistic scenario? We will win in the areas of pay and schedules and some combination of the other issues, it'll be a great baseline initial contract. Then in a few years, when our contract is up for renewal, and the economy will be in full swing, we can go back to the table and ask for increases that are in synch with the growth and profitability of the company.

Anybody every thought about a merger? Let's say Bombardier (or whoever owns us at the time) decides to merge Flexjet with a another operator. Let's say that this company has a union. We'll get stapled to the bottom. Number one seniority at Flexjet becomes #XXXX. You'll keep your seat for a little while, but as the training and upgrades are accomplished... you'll be pulling gear for low pay once again. Hard thing to swallow at age 55. If we have a contract, we'll have protection for our seniority. That kind of protection is invaluable, in my opinion.

One other note, flexlrpilot357. "If you can't argue with me point-by-point" a quote taken from an earlier reply. I haven't seen you fully disect any post on this message board and argue other people's points - point by point. Instead, you pick only the points that you can argue, and then attack the author with patronizing or condescending remarks. You chastized me for being "vulgar" in a previous post when I used a profane word that was censored by the board. It wasn't directed at anyone, it wasn't a personal attack, and it wasn't used to belittle anyone or their views. I think that your behavior and attitude does nothing but discredit your views and opinions.

If you want to have a reasonable and respectful discussion on a point-by-point basis concerning the possible pros and cons of a union on the property - then let's do it. If you want this to be a "wrestling match", then we can do that too.... but this thread will become more entertainment than informative.