Flexjet?

[flexlrpilot357]

flexlrpilot357. "If you can't argue with me point-by-point" a quote taken from an earlier reply. I haven't seen you fully disect any post on this message board and argue other people's points - point by point.

I have. I really have. you can back up within the recent threads, and go back a year. Interspersed between the points was a lot of dancing around and ranting and raving - because it's fun. If I couldn't do that here, I wouldn't bother writing at all. This isn't a UN debate. Anyway...

I'm not going to say that Flexjet pilots have no legitimate gripes, I'm not going to say I'd never like more pay, I'm not going to say that there's no room for improvement.

I'm paid the same way you are, and heck yes I want more.

Here's the fundamental difference in philosophies: I recognize that our problems can't really be solved by a union. A union isn't a cure-all for every whining gripe a pilot may have.

We've gained one voice as a pilot group.
Pigwhistles. We have a voice. Not always listened to, but check Webster under "management". Yeah, I happen to trust management because I understand their motivations. And given the circumstances, I think they're doing pretty well. Not perfect. But well enough that I don't see a truck driver charging into the mix as an improvement.

We've gained an enforceable contract.
I haven't been sitting around wishing I had an enforceable contract. I've been sitting in an airplane wishing I was in bed. We play by the rules. If the rules change, fine. That's the definition of managing a company. I don't see why that's so evil. I don't feel put-upon.

paySure, I'll take seconds. I just don't think a union can get me much more, simple as that.

Protection against unfair/unjust termination. Furlough policy Really the same thing. I have never seen an unjust termination at Flexjet. If you think someone was singled out unfairly, you're ill-informed and alarmist. The out-of-seniority layoffs were a lucky day for the folks at the bottom of the list who deserved jobs more than those folks. Not that I'd do the same thing over again, because it is admittedly, controversial.

Scheduling/Training/Upgrade policies that respect seniority.
Publishing lines of flying to be bid on by seniority instead of PBS? Scheduling training by seniority might be nice. PBS is seniority based, it just takes the needs of the company first, then it plays by the rules. If you want it to take your needs ahead of the company needs, you're just trying to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. Please apply at NJA.

Personal days in addition to / in lieu of sick days?
More gateways?
Reduced cost / deductibles of health insurance?

Personal days would be nice. Though in an emergency, you can get time off. I've know first hand. Gateways... I doubt a union can secure those without losing something else. A union doesn't charge in and tell the company how to run things. Negotiation is just that, not a list of demands you plunk down. It's this-for-that. If you think it's easy, look across the street at NJA.

Scope? Stop other air carriers from buying shares in our company then turning around and profiting from them That's called responding to market forces. If it sells more shares, what's your deal? Don't like filling out 135 paperwork?

A "real" professional standards committee. Don't like the one we have now? Did you join it? What gripe do you have with it?
Better crew meals and/or the chance to pick our own every day? I'll vote for that, but I won't vote in the Teamsters. I'll vote in the Culinary Arts union.

Any other issue on the gripe list that wouldn't really cost the company much money, but would improve out quality of life? Why not just tell the company about those? If they're free, I see no reason why they'd kick you out the door. They're management, not slave drivers.

If you have any other questions about unions, ask Dave Gross. He knows firsthand, from both sides of the table.

What's the worst that could happen? We could vote in the Teamsters, negotiate, and come out with a contract that reflects the exact same pay and schedules that we currently have. Bummer.

And you've paid for the priviledge of meeting some gangster attorneys and getting nothing for your troubles. I'm too cheap for that. Thank you, drive through.

What's a more realistic scenario? We will win in the areas of pay and schedules and some combination of the other issues, it'll be a great baseline initial contract.

How do you know this? Sounds like this is what you want, not what you know.

 

[Live4flyng]

Old Wise One

Baby seal is back, you just don't hit hard enough.

And you've paid for the priviledge of meeting some gangster attorneys and getting nothing for your troubles. I'm too cheap for that. Thank you, drive through.

I won't argue that you are cheap, you have to be with the money you make. By the way, what kind of an attorney do you get with your money?

If you want it to take your needs ahead of the company needs, you're just trying to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs. Please apply at NJA.

He is right, you should apply to NJA. Who would want to fly with a guy who only cares about himself? The superior intellect, (flexlrpilot357) who knows everything about nothing.

 

[flexlrpilot357]

Who would want to fly with a guy who only cares about himself? The superior intellect, (flexlrpilot357) who knows everything about nothing.

Well, that's just silly, Live4flyng (will somebody buy him a vowel?) I'll have you know that my crew comes FIRST!

But that has nothing to do with what I see as a realistic view of the value of the Teamsters. I just don't think they're worth a plugged nickel, and none of you foaming-mouth zombies has said one cogent thing to change my mind. (Except for picking my own meals. Think Emeril will start a local?)

I care about the health of my company - because that's how I'll keep my job, get more money, and that's how our F/Os will be upgraded. The health of the company is not going to benefit by a slick union guy who promises me the moon and the stars for only 3% of my pay! It's a big racket! A sham. That's the real Kool-Aid, brutha!

Pugnacious G:

12x17=204 work days/yr on the union 17 day schedule
12x15.2=182 " union 7&7 schedule

13x17=221 " non-union 17 day schedule

Yeah, I get paid for 221 days if that's what I choose to work. (It usually is, sometimes more.) But check this out, I know this will tie your lace panties in a big knot if you can wrap your melon around it:

If I want to work 204 days (your union 17 day schedule), then I bid for 15 and 16 day lines. It's called "Fun with Multiplication and Division", I really recommend you pick it up!

So what's the big difference? The number of bid periods? Is it really that important that the bid calendar matches the Gregorian calendar? That's pretty anal, Rain Man.

I can also work a lot less, if that's what I want, all the way down to 14/28 days. So what's your point? We all get paid per day, right? And we can all vary the amount of days we work. So how is paying the Teamsters better?

Ya humiliated yet?

 

[fuzzydice]

14 days?

I can also work a lot less, if that's what I want, all the way down to 14/28 days.

I'm willing to bet that you don't ever bid less than 17 days, so you might not be aware that that's easier said than done.

I have always bid for less than 17 days, and I have never received it - "due to demand." But I'm in the middle of the seniority list in my seat in my fleet.

Unverified, but heard from a trustworthy source, the #1 seniority pilot in the company bid for 15 days and received a 17 day line - due to demand.

Either you're wrong in assuming and asserting that you can "work a lot less, " or there were reduced lines awarded that somehow disregarded that gentleman's seniority.

 

[Diesel]

what percentages of the schedule have 15 day lines? What percentages of the schedule has 18day lines. Schedules like that?

Sure you could be able to bid 15 day lines but if there is only one line then what's the point of bidding it. Unless your number one in the senority list then everything is great.

At NJA 50 percent of captains and FO's can hold the 7/7 which works out to 14 days a month.

The rest of the crews are on the 17 day schedule. Unless they choose to go on the flex. I've got a buddy on that schedule and he's only working 18 days a month for a nice bump in the pay to make up for the extra work.

I'm sick and tired of hearing flexer keep calling the union full of gangsters and thugs. The teamsters are the only one who wanted us at the time. No union is perfect but the teamsters themselves are pouring a lot of money into our negotiations. The national is helping to pay for our lawyers and provide hardware for our mec.

You calling the teamsters thugs and criminals goes to show how little you know about organized labor.

 

[flexlrpilot357]

I'm willing to bet that you don't ever bid less than 17 days, so you might not be aware that that's easier said than done.

Actually, I've been working 16 day lines the last few months. I've been bidding for particular days (weekends and holidays) off, with reasonable success. A fine gentleman and scholar I flew with recently flew 14-day lines all summer. He's in the smack in the middle of his applicable seniority list.

what percentages of the schedule have 15 day lines? What percentages of the schedule has 18day lines. Schedules like that?

Well, that's hard to answer, as we don't have set pre-published lines. But management has left voicemails in the past detailing # of days awarded expressed as a percentage. I don't have solid figures in front of me, but I seem to remember that most awards were 17 days and lower.

I'm sick and tired of hearing flexer keep calling the union full of gangsters and thugs.

Yeah, I bet you are. Don't believe it? Do your own research. Plenty of info on the web.

 

[flexlrpilot357]

C'mon, gunfyter, you're a self-professed smartie. Are these really the arguments you're going to use? You know those aren't logical conclusions!

Fallacy of analogy; your premises are true, but your conclusions are false. John Wayne Gacy was a clown. John Wayne Gacy was a murderer. Should we electrocute all clowns? Ok, maybe that was a bad example.

 

[FracPilot]

At NJA 50 percent of captains and FO's can hold the 7/7 which works out to 14 days a month.

If you want to get technical, the 7/7 schedule works out to an average of slightly over 15 days per month.

Is your 17 day schedule based on a 28 day period? Or is it 17 days per calendar month?

 

[bluepost]

The 17 day is based on a calender month. A true 7and7 is 15.2 days per month...however we bid it on a quarterly basis and depending on the line you can average around 13 to 16 days per month. Obviously the senior guys can hold the lines that work the fewest days per quarter.

 

[Semore Butts]

I can't believe I read the whole thing??

I read it all, and all of it I read. I can say this, and this is what I can say.

357, You can spin it however you want, you can deny, deny, deny.
Defend, defend, defend. I admire your loyalty, and still have alot of friends flying at Flex.

But what you really can't do, is honestly form an unbiased opinion regarding Flexjet and Netjets.

Why, because you ain't been there. There are alot of us that have.

Name me one person that has left Netjets to come to Flexjet, and I'll name you 5 that have left Flexjet to come to Netjets

That being said, you come across as being a smart articulate person, but I just sit here thinking, "What a dumbass".

I am not as articulate as you, but on my simple level of thought I have to say, "Gee Wally", "There must be some reason in the world that every major airline has a union"?

If the response is, "we aren't a major airline", then my response is, "we are the primary major player in the fractional industry".

I can tell you this, I am much happier here then I was there. I get treated better here then I did there. I have more to look forward to here then I did there.

"Over"

 

[LAZYB]

vixin

I am not sure where the new hires have been or will be placed. I am sure that Flexjet WILL slap the poor FO's in the face again and hire into the 604 and 300. Flexjet does not care about the FO's. The only reason they are here is because they are required. If they could MEL the occupation of the right seat they would, to make their bottom line "look better". If you think that sitting as an FO in the challengers would be better think again. Beside being under paid for that equipment, there is a good deal of animosity for the JR FO's in those seats. However, you can get the Challenger type and leave for a better job like most have.

Does Flexjet types all their pilots? Didn't know if fracs were still doing that. I was at RTA, until I got the last job/career position I'd need. Typed in the 757 - now I can fly for Air Atlanta Icelandic and never see home.