Flexjet?

[flexlrpilot357]

Gunfyter said:

What I protest is the claim by some that the union has not been beneficial to my situation...

Oh, well, if that's the question, you tell me: How much have you paid in union dues, and what concrete improvements have the Teamsters made in your life. Things that wouldn't have happened otherwise. Now tell me if they're worthwhile. What's the P/E ratio of the Teamsters? I betcha if you take a good, honest, objective view, you're not getting your money's worth.

 

[flexlrpilot357]

I am not working a boatload more days per year like you are... as I am sure I would be if it were not for the Teamsters.

Well, like I said previously, that's not true. I'm working more because I choose to, but I could work a whole lot less if I wanted to.

I am commuting to Dallas instead of Columbus (as I was when I started)... and as I would be if NJA management followed FLEX's lead in having pilots all fly out of HomePlate

That's costing you, because it costs the company, and like it or not, you are intrinsically tied to the health of the company. You may not see it now, but that expense will cost the company, and that will be passed on to you. The piggy bank is only so big.

Your union dues may cost me less than medical, but I'm getting something for medical. You're having a hard time showing me what you're getting for "Union Representation".

I wasn't Furloughed out of Seniority...

I don't feel sorry for the very few people who got furloughed out of seniority from Flex. They would have/should have been fired anyway, for sucking real bad, and they got a better deal by getting "furloughed".

As for the $500 you get for scheduling errors... Who was asking why I think Flexjet is so efficient?? Two years of hard work... which will culminate in no raise and you flying to work on your own time? That's what I'm hearin'!

I think you just get warm fuzzies by paying the Teamsters, which is fine. Not for me though.

 

[Live4flyng]

That's costing you, because it costs the company, and like it or not, you are intrinsically tied to the health of the company. You may not see it now, but that expense will cost the company, and that will be passed on to you. The piggy bank is only so big.

That is where you are wrong flexlrpilot357, it actually saves the company money by having gateways all over the country. If all the pilots were based in Columbus, it would be a logistics nightmare. By having pilots like Gunfyter in Dallas, he shows up at the FBO and jumps in the X, otherwise, he would have had to been airlined to DAL from CMH.

I don't feel sorry for the very few people who got furloughed out of seniority from Flex.

This is exactly how management thinks too, and those pilots have no recourse unlike pilots who are represented.

The way I see it, the company's health is intrinsically tied to managements leadership, or lack there of.

 

[Live4flyng]

Efficiency?

Efficiency, to me at least, means wise and cost-effective utilization of resources. Like it or not, believe it or not, that's something Flexjet does very well

flexlrpilot357 might not be management after all, he obviously doesn't know much about Fractionals. If he did, he would have know that the more airplanes you have, the more efficient your operation becomes. Less time ferrying airplanes for the next trip = your statement above (EFFICIENCY)! You compare NJA to UAL as if NJA is trying to get too big too fast, two completely different business models and profit margins.

Efficient operation may include, unfortunately, trimming excess (expensive) resources when needed.

This is a good one, sounds just like a junior manager talking. I love the qualifier "when needed". Here is a new concept, if it were an efficient operation then you wouldn't have to trim excess. Does the term furlough ring the efficiency bell here?

Even from talking to Netjets pilots, I can tell that their system is much less efficient

Did you know the union created a travel committee that has reduced costs for the company while improving the quality of hotels for the pilots? What have you done to improve efficiency at your company? Nod your head yes to everything management asks you to do including furloughing out of seniority? Nod your head yes!

Hey - doesn't Netjets pay a bunch of FOs a Captain's salary? How is that efficient?

Yep, NJA only hires captains. The minimums are higher at NJA then they are at most carriers; ATP, 2500TT, 500ME, and all pilots are typed. But don't confuse safety with efficiency, remember who started this whole fractional business? Do you ever wonder why NJA does not operate Lears or Challengers? Ever hear the story about Santulli bringing his fractional idea to Bombardier and them laughing him out of the room? I'm pretty sure he knows all about "competiton in the marketplace".

 

[Diesel]

after flying with many former flexer's i learned this about KASE operations.

At flexjet you have to have a reason not to operate into and out of ASE.

At NJA and FLOPS you have to give a reason why you CAN operate out of KASE.

All I know is how many flex planes do we see on the road? I'll never forget what one flexer crew said to me in the elevator at the crowne in hpn.

I said to him, "I'd do anything to make the money you guys make."

The Flexer pilot turned to me and said, "I'd do the same to have your contract."

It's a true story. I was new at NJA and didn't understand what he ment

Eddited because my spelling sucks

 

[fuzzydice]

First off, I apologize to the Netjets folks for posting about my company in their thread, I'm moving back into my own territory.

"Fuzzy, I suggest that you take the money that you'd spend on trucker gangsters and shyster labor attorneys and give it to a shrink, or better yet, invest it. It'll get you a lot further."

Funny that you mention that, because I probablty will be using those funds on a shrink if the continuing downward trend in quality of life at Flex continues and our pilot group is unable to recognize the benefits of representation and obtaining a collective bargaining agreement.

"Hire till you furlough. Furlough till you have to hire? - They're not doing that anymore."

Says who? Is there some secret binding contract between us and the company that says they won't? If they decide they need to furlough after this busy winter period, do you think they'll balk simply because they put out a voice mail explaining that they are trying to avoid it by changing our schedules? What if sales are down during the next couple of quarters and the company decides to furlough some pilots AND keep the monthly schedules at 18 days? Can they do that? Sure... We work for an "at will" employer - and they can do anything they want. Would it make financial sense for them? You bet!

"Our normal work month is from 15-19 days".

I take issue with your terminology. We don't have monthly bid periods, our bid periods span 28 days. So if you want to convert our 15-19 days per bid period to monthy numbers it would be 16.25 - 20.58. Now, let's update to the latest bidding options that have occured via voice mail: 16-20 days and that gives us 17.3 - 21.6 days a month. Not much difference in our new schedules and our neighbors next door at ADS - Cherry Air or Ameristar.

"Fuzzydice, in his emotional and vulgar tirade (***CENSORED***), expresses desire for a union because he's reached his breaking point from too many FOM revisions. If I felt that way, I sure wouldn't admit it to anyone. I feel like I'm beating up children here."

Well, do you read your FOM? I'm sure you do, you sound like you might possibly be one of the authors. The FOM contains sections concerning duty issues, expense reimbursement issues, gateways, issues that can cost me money or time. All of these things can be changed at the whim of management. I'd prefer that these issues be regulated through a collective bargaining agreement. It's not the actual process of revising the manual that bothers me, and I'm sorry that you feel like you have to try to beat anyone up.

"Hey - doesn't Netjets pay a bunch of FOs a Captain's salary? How is that efficient?"

That's really the pot calling the kettle black. Flex is so overstaffed with captains that we are basically doing the same thing. Numbers will probably even out more as the CL300 fleet grows.

flexlrpilot357: What is your experience with labor unions? Have you ever been a member of one?


Diesel:

"At flexjet you have to have a reason not to operate into and out of ASE.

At NJA and FLOPS you have to give a reason why you CAN operate out of KASE."

Out of any complaints about Flex I may have, safety is not one of them. I'm willing to bet that you and I both have very similiar, if not identical constraints on operations in Aspen.

 

[Diesel]

You could merge the nja and flexjet thread because they are both leading to the same place.

You can't unionize a group that doesn't want to unionize.

When I first came to NJA i was dead set against the union. My family has never been union men. the boss I worked for hated unions to the bone.

But... since the union is here I decided to make the best of it and make sure I helped in whatever capacity i can. I learned a lot about the true history and they are a necessary evil.

Some things that the union has but a block on, company credit cards, (our names are on the cards we are liable), vacation grievances, after midnight returns, the rental car debacle, our hotel comittee(we decide on our hotels), pro standards, and many more things that happen every day

As far as flexjet being efficient..... I don't think there are any fractionals that are efficient. I know nja isn't but they are trying to be. They are reaching that critical mass where they need to be. I'm sure flex has a long way to go.

 

[Semore Butts]

I wondered when you were gonna say somet

Merry Christmas 357!

I wondered how long it was gonna take for you to leap to Flex's defense.

I guess your about the only person I know that isn't fed up.

There are alot of good posts here.

Having been a "Flexo Jetto" pilot, I can give you at least my opinion of the 2 companies.

I like NJA alot better then I liked Flex. I stay in alot better hotels. I get to order what I want to eat. There is more of a variety of schedules available to fit an individuals needs. I have a set of written rules to go by in the form of a union contract.

Yes, our new and improved contract is moving slowly towards completion. That is an issue of constant turmoil among the pilots on the road. Hopefully it will help us all in the long run.

I have heard that Flex is putting people in better hotels these days, that's great, you deserve to be treated well on the road.

NJA has a hotel commitee that is constanly working with the different "chains" to help the pilots on the road. The hotel commitee "kicks ass"! Way to go!

It's time for church, gotta go. Just wanted you to know I'm doin well, take care, and for all my "buds" at Flex, have a great Christmas.

I am well, take care....

 

[flexlrpilot357]

Same old nonsense from you folks. They only concrete thing any of you mentioned was the ability to order your meals. I guess that is nice, I sure would like that. I do get sick of turkey... though we do have a few other delicious menu items.

Everything else you all said was either a simple matter of personal preference, expressed in vague terms, untrue, half true, or an example of the old "nanny-nanny-boo-boo" argument. Says a lot more about the writer than it does about either company. Doesn't fly with me.

The collective NJA posts sound like a pep rally, all of you trying to encourage each other to keep spirits up. That's a great example of company spirit. Hats off to you there.

A few notes:

No, I'm not management. Even if I was, so what? Would my fact-based arguments hold less water? Might as well say, "don't listen to him, I bet he's a jew!" Doesn't have anything to do with whether I'm right or wrong, but it's just as smart as the argument you're making.

My medical is ~$33.00/mo.

At flexjet you have to have a reason not to operate into and out of ASE.

At NJA and FLOPS you have to give a reason why you CAN operate out of KASE.

What the heck does that mean?

Fuzzy: I knew you'd go for the silly semantic arguments, because you're not capable of much else. I've already referred to the Flexjet 28-day bid period as a "bid month". I'm sure you can grant me license for that. Anyway, it doesn't matter, because we all use the same year. How you split it up is irrelevant.

The minimums are higher at NJA then they are at most carriers; ATP, 2500TT, 500ME, and all pilots are typed.

That's pretty much the norm at all frax, AFAIK. Are you going to tell me that you're just "better" next? Your pee-pee longer too?

Anyway, think about this, ya'all. The "pie" is only so big. From that pie salaries, benefits, travel expenses, and all other operational expenses must be paid. Spend more than is in the pie, company is losing money/incurring debt. (Think UAL) Want the pie to be bigger? Ok, charge more money. Ya'all remember what that does to demand, right?

By paying union dues, you've earned the priviledge of perhaps moving those pie slice lines a hair to the left or right. (Well, if your contract ever goes through that's what you'll be doing.) Want to spend more on hotels? Ok, well, have to spend less on medical.
If there are any reasonable folks on your committee, they'll have to agree with that. If they really think they're going to get you the sun and the moon and the stars (i.e. $150k/yr+ as one astute fellow assured me was inevitable), you're too stupid for words. There isn't that much money to be had. Ok, well maybe for just a few of you.

Fine, if you want to get your hands in that mess, I expect you're all smart enough to run your own fractionals, that's obvious by your posts. You're paying for that priviledge, which is the same as shrinking your slice of pie. For that, all you get is a piece of "socialist brotherhood" and "workers paradise" or whatever line the gangsters are feeding you nowdays.

Enjoy!

 

[Semore Butts]

357 is Graff????

Wow, that's rich! To think, I was gonna have a beer with him.

He says he isn't management? Well he was!