Flexjet Union Drive Continues...

[Col. Angus]

A tree falling in the woods?

Fellow Pilots,

I am pleased to see that the Unionized Pilots are ignoring this thread. If a union buster spouted FUD in the woods, would anyone hear it?

The Flight Options pilots are gone building the required unity to obtain parity with their counterparts, and the NetJets pilots are probably enjoying their time off.

Cliffs note reality:

Based on the 2004 rejected contract proposal, a pilot with my seniority at NJA would be making 69K a year with two 14 day vacations a year. Based on the renegotiated contract ratified in November, it's now >100K (and counting due to OT) with three 28 day periods off per year for vacation.

Full details:

Our elected Union Executive board earns $0 from the pilots in salary (as they wrote Local Union bylaws that were later ratified by the pilots that give NO salary to elected union leaders). It’s an ALL VOLUNTEER effort. 100% of the Local Union funds go back to the pilots in the form of representation, contract administration, and advocacy efforts.

This past Wednesday the Chairman of NetJets spoke to a recurrent ground school and stated that due to increased productivity and reduced sell-offs we are making money in the US as of the second quarter. His message was one of thanks and gratitude. Much of the turnaround is due to the 40+ pilots that NJA brings to CMH each month to work on partnership programs to affect the turnaround and success of the company they work for.

Union busters and dissidents please polish your turds all you want and fill our punchbowls with them. Our pilots at NJA will be focusing on making money for themselves and their company and enjoying time off, while our Flight Options pilots will be patiently waiting to help turn things around once management demonstrates they get the message that pilots are in fact professionals that are not in fact priced out at "a dime a dozen" and are worth some base-line respect. We will know they understand when they bargain in good faith for industry standard wages and compensation in exchange for progressive dispute resolution and an organized force of highly motivated partners.

A line has been drawn in the sand and pilots and management alike need to decide which side they are on. If professional union pilots in the fractional industry are given the support and respect of management then we will stand shoulder-to-shoulder for mutual success. If a pilot truly believes that he is a commodity and they continue to fail to organize and pull together, then we have no choice to make it a priority to crush the company they work for so that unified pilots and progressive managements can succeed together.

Besides, what is everyone doing reading threads like this? Shouldn’t managers be concentrating on the safety and success of the organization? Shouldn’t pilots be working to halt the slide of their profession and be speaking to other pilots about what it really means to have strong representation, a contract featuring ADR-style administration, and professional advocacy for pilot concerns?

So yes, if Union Busting FUD and the above response are shouted in the woods, would anyone hear it? The movers and shakers are out conquering the industry while us discovering this thread by accident is another ten minutes of our lives we can never get back. *YAWN*

Sincerely,

Col. Angus
On behalf of Local 1108 Pilots
Representing 85% of US-based Fractional Pilots

 

[xpdriver]

If the Teamsters are so smart, then why don't they start their own fractional? Or trucker line? Or any business? That's because in their "business", they don't have to know anything about business, or anything worthwhile. What a scam.

They won't, of course, because the Teamsters are nothing but a parasite organization that feeds off the blood ($) of companies and the employees they represent, promising a "better life" and "protection" to one side, while trying to assume the duties of the other side.

Call me a "company man" all you want. My paycheck says "Bombardier" on it, not "James Hoffa, Jr."

If you don't like it, here's your invitation to not let the door hit your fat @$$ on the way out.

XPDriver, you don't even work here, so STFU.

OK, first my pay check does not say hoffa either but it is bigger because of hoffa and the pilots at my company. So why doesn't the teamsters start a frac,because the same reason Bombardier doesn't start a furniture business. Thats not what they do. Mark my words,one day you are going to FU then you will have no one to back you up. Every pilot messes up once in awhile. Are you going to call yourself a company man when an owner says to flex,I don't like him ,so him or my 5 million dollars,see ya at Kroger dude. PROTECTION is worth every nickle I pay IBT... So I will STFU because sometimes you just can't fix stupid.

 

[walshsfly]

Are you a member of a gym? Do they give you free dues for 5 years then 5 dollars a month? Answer:NO Hey ding dong, It takes money to run an organization,nothing in life is free,didn't someone in your life teach you that. The reason your pay scale sucked at your last job,is not because the UNION set the rates,its because guys like you and others that did not stand up and demand better pay and benefits. By the way it cost me about 550 a year to get a six figure salary. I'm no rocket surgeon,but that is a pretty good return on my money.

Wow a personal attack, must have struck a nerve. Anything I pay money to I expect to get a full return if I am not satisfied, or for service a free trial at the least. That’s the way it should be. I also already paid my money for my education my return is my pay check. I shouldn’t have to invest more money to make that check. And you don't know me don't make an assumption that I didn't stand up for better pay and QOL issues, I just had to fight two battles for it, the union and the company.

 

[hammer2]

All this union talk is giving me a head ache. Flex is a very very good job, union or no union. We have our faults as every company does. For those who want a union think of this. Bombardier will sell us. We may lose what has made us a success, the product. We can't stand up against NJA flying beachjets or CE-500s. If you want to take that chance, vote the union in. If things are that bad at Flex, lets hear what bothering everybody? I don't see one thing on this thread that justifies a union

 

[dime line]

Hey Hammmer were you working at FLex about 5 years ago when they laid off a bunch of pilots out of seniority, and the suprise new 7 and 3 schedule (or something along those lines) I remember Flex was the worst job in the Fractional Industry.

 

[gunfyter]

This past Wednesday the Chairman of NetJets spoke to a recurrent ground school and stated that due to increased productivity and reduced sell-offs we are making money in the US as of the second quarter. His message was one of thanks and gratitude. Much of the turnaround is due to the 40+ pilots that NJA brings to CMH each month to work on partnership programs to affect the turnaround and success of the company they work for.




​

Holy crap. Don't let Publishers or PilotYip read that. They might go into shock!

Whhhooopsss! You mean you can pay pilots Industry salaries and make a profit? A unionized pilot force with those onerous work rules that must be obeyed? How can this be true?

Now is Flexjet management any dumber than NJ management. Couldn't they do the same?

 

[vixin]

Nope they are smarter. Because they get the same type of work out of the pilots and treat them like dirt. Less money, less time off and our health insurance sucks now. No protection for the pilots. No real defined rest rules. We are basically an on call charter company. What can a union do for you?

Hey walsh you say you need a return on your investment. Pay union dues and get the NJ contract. More time off, more money, better health care, protection from management. Just to name a few. Do you think that is enough of a return for union dues? How long have you been at Flex? Not long I would say. Talk to the ones that have been around for a while. Where are you Steve G. Start the union bash?

I for one havent really been for or against a union, but Flex management needs to be stopped now. They take and change rules without any input from the crews. If they want to change it they will. The CAB is just a show for the pilots. The CAB members are more on managements side anyway.

 

[Cautious Belly]

Can you answer this honestly? Would you rather make what we make at Flex, or make what NJA makes and get their schedule.

Sure thing, el raton. An honest question deserves an honest answer.

I'll always take more money. I'm not a dumba--. I just think that the way to get more money is by continuing to be the best fractional service provider. What's good for the business is good for the crewmembers. Trying to twist management's arm for a few bucks and causing a whole lot of drama in the process ain't my style.

As far as the "protection" racket goes, I'm not afraid of going to training. I'm confident in my abilities. I know I don't suck. And if someday, I do suck, then I need to find another line of work. I'm not for any organization whose stated purpose is to protect idiots who need to get canned. And if you think we need other kinds of "protection", the last time I screwed up I called RH, told him what happened, and he laughed about it and said, direct quote: "Bet you won't do that again."

As far as their schedule, I'm not a big fan of 7/7, to tell the truth. I like going out for 4 days, and sometimes out for 6. I get plenty of 5-off periods too. With as many shortcomings as PBS has, I'm still able to get some important events off. How much control can I really expect? Should everyone be able to write their own schedule down to the day?

Biggest problem with having the Teamsters here, is that the biggest union supporters I've run into are a bunch of anger-heads who have never been happy anywhere, at any job, and who think that RH pi$$e$ in their froot-loops every day just to make them miserable. Sorry, if I want to join an organization run by a bunch of miserable quasi-socialist bastards, I'll join the Democrats.

 

[Cautious Belly]

Nope they are smarter. Because they get the same type of work out of the pilots and treat them like dirt. Less money, less time off and our health insurance sucks now. No protection for the pilots. No real defined rest rules.

Just because you don't understand rest rules doesn't mean they don't exist.

We are basically an on call charter company.

So, the Teamsters is going to take over and re-formulate the entire business so that you know your trips 3 weeks ahead of time? Get real. Go get that airline job you've always dreamed of. Just don't let the door hit your fat ass on the way out.

...The CAB is just a show for the pilots. The CAB members are more on managements side anyway.

Case in point. Someone who needs "protection from management" must either be a half-assed pilot or someone with a guilty conscience.

And you're saying that no matter who is selected to the CAB is a management stooge? So if you were elected, you'd just be another management stooge? Sorry, doesn't pass the logic test.

 

[vixin]

Just because you don't understand rest rules doesn't mean they don't exist.

I understand them just fine. I also understand how Flex violates them EVERYDAY with its own interpretation of rest rules. Sure you can refuse the phone call and get fired the second time you do it.

So, the Teamsters is going to take over and re-formulate the entire business so that you know your trips 3 weeks ahead of time? Get real. Go get that airline job you've always dreamed of. Just don't let the door hit your fat ass on the way out.

Never said I wanted to go to an airline. NJ seems to be able to figure this out. Who knows maybe the union helped NJ do that. I do like how you put me down though. Typical for the Flex office boy.

Case in point. Someone who needs "protection from management" must either be a half-assed pilot or someone with a guilty conscience.

My case in point is the rest rules. Try not answering that phone in the middle of the night. See what happens next. Pretty darn good at the job and not a guilty conscience. I do belive they give some the benefit of the doubt. Just not the ones they want to get rid of. ie: Furloughing out of seniority. I feel pretty good about my security. But its not just about me it is about our fellow crew members. Let it come to a vote and let the majority speak.

And you're saying that no matter who is selected to the CAB is a management stooge? So if you were elected, you'd just be another management stooge? Sorry, doesn't pass the logic test.

Look at the stooges on the board now. If they werent stooges before they become ones pretty quick. The CAB is a joke.

 

[Stickshaker]

WALSHSFLY,
You said "and those were pay rates negotiated by a union." I have to say sir that the union is only as good as the pilot group and there unity.

The united pilot group at NJA made it happen. Please understand the people we are flying are not the same people that fly on South West. They have gardners that they pay more then you. They will never go back to the airlines. They will pay the pilots for there worth if you stand up for yourself and demand your worth like we did.

I'm going to make over $110,000 here at NJA and I have only 4.5 years here. Now I don't want to hear that I'm running the company into the ground like the airlines because that isn't the case with these people. NJA is hiring 30 pilots a month, buying new Airplanes and still making a profit. These people have the money and so does NJA. The only question is that how much will go to your pocket or to your management's pocket. Have a backbone and educate yourself.

 

[gunfyter]

,
I'm going to make over $110,000 here at NJA and I have only 4.5 years here. .

Shhhhhhhh... Loose lips sink ships.

 

[LAZYB]

Flexjet Union Drive, Flexjet Union Drive...

what is this Flexjet Union Drive you speak of?


"Hope is the denial of reality."
- Anonymous

 

[Cautious Belly]

Look at the stooges on the board now. If they werent stooges before they become ones pretty quick. The CAB is a joke.

Well, then, we're done for. What makes you think they're going to be a lot better as union stooges than as a CAB stooges?

 

[hammer2]

I lived through the 7&2, mac&cheese, cdl, layoffs, coming into the office while the 45 was down, the special purchase of the beloved pbs, the nazi, all of it and I still love this job. I don't want it to go away, and I'm happy here.

 

[vixin]

Well, then, we're done for. What makes you think they're going to be a lot better as union stooges than as a CAB stooges?

I dont think that. I do think that the pilots would at least have a contract that they could enforce. Rest rules that the company would have to abide by without consequences to the pilots and FA.

 

[Necromonger]

hhhmmmm

Well, it seems Cautious Belly is trying to double up his post total on this one thread.

What makes you think they're going to be a lot better as union stooges than as a CAB stooges?

It's called a CONTRACT you Idiot! Something we don't have now.

Don't you just love the: "may be waved down with FODM approval" verbiage we have now. In essence, Your held accountable for all things in the FOM. If they think you broke a rule.... You CAN get CANNED. They just change the rules as they see fit. There are memos floating around flight ops with changes we don't even know about. Voice mail might come out a week later...then in a couple of months, we get another blue sheet. How many Blue sheets have we gotten that actually help our QOL?

For your information: ROLLING REST is a reality here! We need to do something about it!

Later.

 

[Necromonger]

Nice

What is even more sad is the fact that Flex made the most recent washout a stans captain. Are you going to tell me he all of a sudden became that bad? What a joke that process is!! Half of the standards captains shouldnt have that position. The other half are like cookie boy and do it to boost egos. They just make me laugh. We have 1 or 2 fo's that should have been let go a long time ago, but for some reason they are still here. So who knows what the criteria are.

You bring up a good point. But, what you have to realize is that F.T. does not take into account Flying ability or past experience when selecting Standard Captains. (A 60 guy told me that he selected a 3 month captain in the fleet, who has little or no previous captain experience. He told me that there are lots of 60 guys who could only laugh at the selection) He selects the biggest A$$ kissers or people he thinks he can manipulate to go into those positions. (BrokeBackMalc...)
If you have a backbone, or try to stand up for what is right, he doesn't want any part of you. Every once in a while a good one slips through and gets selected. Can't win 'em all, fred.

 

[Ludicris]

I lived through the 7&2, mac&cheese, cdl, layoffs, coming into the office while the 45 was down, the special purchase of the beloved pbs, the nazi, all of it and I still love this job. I don't want it to go away, and I'm happy here.

What's cdl?

 

[netjetwife]

........Fact is that in the 5+ years I have been here I haven't received a card yet.....I don't have to prove anything, the fact that there is no union here proves my point and when that changes I'll gladly admit that I was wrong.

Frax, I civilly suggest that you, and other like-minded Flex pilots, are part of the problem. If you were handing out the cards instead of standing around waiting to be handed a card, I dare say the situation would look far more promising to you. At its basic level--the one that makes a real difference--a union is simply a group of co-workers standing up together to demand change and fair treatment. The potential has always been there, Flex pilots just haven't been exercising their right to organize. It would appear that too many of you have expected others to do the work for you. Why not try being part of the solution for a change? The more of you who organize and fight for fair wages together the quicker your victory/contract will arrive. The NJA pilots turned their careers around and are now heading in the right direction. Flt Options pilots have begun the process. Flex pilots can, too. My encouragement and regard to those willing to work for the change you deserve/have earned. NJW

PILOTS ARE PROFESSIONALS AND SHOULD BE TREATED/COMPENSATED ACCORDINGLY

A RISING TIDE LIFTS ALL BOATS, BUT SOME PADDLING WILL BE REQUIRED

STANDING UP FOR YOURSELVES WILL RAISE YOUR WAGES AND YOUR MORALE

 

[FraxJockey]

Frax, I civilly suggest that you, and other like-minded Flex pilots, are part of the problem. If you were handing out the cards instead of standing around waiting to be handed a card, I dare say the situation would look far more promising to you. At its basic level--the one that makes a real difference--a union is simply a group of co-workers standing up together to demand change and fair treatment. The potential has always been there, Flex pilots just haven't been exercising their right to organize. It would appear that too many of you have expected others to do the work for you. Why not try being part of the solution for a change? The more of you who organize and fight for fair wages together the quicker your victory/contract will arrive. The NJA pilots turned their careers around and are now heading in the right direction. Flt Options pilots have begun the process. Flex pilots can, too. My encouragement and regard to those willing to work for the change you deserve/have earned. NJW

PILOTS ARE PROFESSIONALS AND SHOULD BE TREATED/COMPENSATED ACCORDINGLY

A RISING TIDE LIFTS ALL BOATS, BUT SOME PADDLING WILL BE REQUIRED

STANDING UP FOR YOURSELVES WILL RAISE YOUR WAGES AND YOUR MORALE

Wow it took a week for you to surface. The reason I don't seek out a card is because I don't feel I need to. Furthermore if we are in such dire straights, the pilots that feel we need to organize, they should be handing them out. for example:

Netjetwife doesn't need a lobotomy and doesn't feel like she needs one, but the husband A of a person B she doesn't know, in another household, had one and it worked great for them so they feel everyone should have one. So now person B is campaigning for lobotomies. They may be good for some...heck even merited...but are not for all.

Purely hypothetical of course but you catch my drift.

My point is if the majority of pilots are satisfied with what we have (due to the fact that union drives have really had no steam in the past) why is that bad? I personally feel insulted that you are telling me I am not smart enough to think for myself and need to listen to you. Trust me if I felt we needed something I'd be the one informing the masses.

So please I would politely ask that you STFU.

Cheers


By the way, CLC (not cdl) was the crappy lodging card that we used to pay for hotels. That was a fiasco and now we are better for it.

 

[FLYLOW22]

I think what se was describing is the false sense of security some feel just because there is the presence of a Union.

A Union is nothing without volunteerism. Nothing.

We had good result here because of a huge showing of volunteerism... and great leadership with a healthy dose of Unity.

Union drives? I dunno. What we had was more of a Union overhaul. The mechanism was already in place.

I see wifes comments as simply an invitation; if you want representation then seek it out. Rarely to things you need find you by themselves.

Cheerio.

 

[netjetwife]

Where in my post did I insult your intelligence? Plenty of smart people become apathetic when their efforts seem futile to them. I find it hard to believe that Flex pilots prefer their lack of a contract, sub-par wages, and inferior benefits to what other fractional pilots have. It appeared to me that the problem might be a lack of coordinated efforts. If there have been union drives in the past, then there is some interest in bettering your position.

My post was not aimed solely at you, Frax. There is an attitude that prevents progress---if others do the work you'll be happy to enjoy the benefits of a contract. Didn't you say you'd be happy to be proven wrong? I'm suggesting that if more of you were happy to work for improvement things would change. It doesn't even have to be 1108. I just don't see any better alternatives out there. If Flex pilots are able to achieve what NJ pilots have without an official union, I'll congratulate you wholeheartedly. Do make sure you get it in writing, though.

I have noticed that there are two groups that resist change: those too afraid to stand up for themselves and those too selfish to care about the rest of the group. Both will tell you everything is fine even when clearly it's not. Both groups are happy to be proven wrong. For the sake of the pilots at Flex (and their families) who aspire to industry standard wages and working conditions I hope that there are enough pilots with backbone and empathy to affect change.

As for your lobotomy analogy, I'm advocating professional compensation for professional pilots--hardly a step backwards for your pilot group. I'm suggesting that working under a written contract that guarantees your work rules and benefits would be an improvement over your present situation--not exactly a questionable proposition.

Fractional families are affected by what happens in the industry. That makes it logical for me to comment on current events. Should you not wish to read my posts feel free to put me on your ignore list. In the meantime, my best wishes to those at Flex with guts and determination to stand up for the industry standards you have earned.
Good Luck!
NJW

 

[walshsfly]

And just what is the industry standard? Your spouting it off now tell us what it is. Or do you not really know? Do you only know what netjets gets? I have read their contract, some parts I like some I don't. Don't try to tell me that my life would be better if it was like yours, because you know that's wrong. I have been in unions and now I'm not, and I think its better to not be in one. If you don't like the fact that some have a thought of there own, then I would suggest you never talk to anyone. Otherwise everyone is entitled to their own opinion, you have yours and I have mine, don't tell me I am wrong just because its not like yours, and I'll do the same.

 

[netjetwife]

NJ pilots make up the largest group of fractional pilots, by far, so it is fair to say that their contract is the industry standard. When one considers the total compensation package plus time off, I do believe that the NJ pilots win hands down. If there are CS pilots out there doing better I'd point out that they have no guarantees.

As for telling you, personally, what to think, Walshsfly, I wasn't and I wouldn't--obviously you have your mind made up. One could even argue that it's nailed shut given your tendency to judge 1108 by the track record of other unions rather than assessing it on its own merits.

As always, I post to the unseen audience--those that just read the board. I also wish to cheer on those pilots posting here that are interested in securing professional compensation for their skill and experience.

I have no idea what your life is like so wouldn't compare it to mine, but I can say that the present and future is now much brighter for many NJ families. Standing up for themselves made a big difference in their lifestyle. They have shown that it is possible to change the status quo of being underpaid/overworked. Best of Luck to the other frac pilots that also choose that path. It's worth it in the end.
NJW

 

[Cautious Belly]

Netjetwife showed up... thread is dead.

 

[hammer2]

I nominate her for president.

 

[Jetz]

Finally: words we can read and agree with.

It doesn't even have to be 1108. If Flex pilots are able to achieve what NJ pilots have without an official union, I'll congratulate you wholeheartedly.

Good Luck!
NJW

FINALLY!!! Words of wisdom from NJW.

 

[netjetwife]

Jetz, that has always been my position. However, if it were possible I do think it would have been done already. You conveniently left out the line about no better alternatives out there.

When you guys run down the union you're actually insulting yourselves and your fellow pilots. When the NJ pilots realized that THEY are the union and THEY can take charge of their career effective change was finally realized. Starting their own Local was a very smart move. Flight Options pilots recognized that advantage and joined 1108. I won't be surprised if Flex votes to do the same. All you have to do is look at the contract and the leadership of 1108 to see how much better off NJ pilots are now. 1108 has a track record to be proud of. It is comprised solely of frac pilots--your peers, whose lives are better because of 1108. One would think you'd be pleased for them.

The alternatives out there aren't nearly as promising. To me the choice looks easy--continue to be overworked/underpaid or take the route that will lead you to the professional compensation that is your due. Flex pilots can listen to the pessimists in their group or look at the results of 1108 and work toward that goal. On the NJ board I read of pilots buying new homes, vehicles, boats, etc. Building up their 401Ks and college accounts. Paying off debt and enjoying life for a change. I can't fathom that Flex pilots and their families don't want the same lifestyle. They do essentially the same job so certainly they earn and deserve the same compensation, don't they?

Flex pilots should ask the pilots in 1108 how satisfied they are with their union, not the anti-union pilots who have nothing to do with 1108. Here's Art's post again--well worth repeating--

It's happening guys and gals! Please go to the website and register or read the latest. We are well on our way to joining 1108. The silent group is speaking....



http://www.ibt1108.org/flexjet/

 

[Safetycheck]

Wifey

Jetz, that has always been my position. However, if it were possible I do think it would have been done already.

With that attitude, do you think 1108 would have accomplished what they did at NetJets? Contradictory garbage.

When you guys run down the union you're actually insulting yourselves and your fellow pilots...(that feel they should work less and be paid more) editorial edition to your quote.

By the way, I would be pleased for them more had they not worked for lousy wages all those years and drawn down the average for all that time. Did their retro pay REALLY make up the difference? I dont think so, and look how long it took for them to get what they "deserved."

The alternatives out there aren't nearly as promising.

I think there are 350+ CS pilots who would disagree with your shallow assertion.

To me the choice looks easy--continue to be overworked/underpaid or take the route that will lead you to the professional compensation that is your due.

Your "all or nothing" thinking here is almost pathological. Besides, what is your definition of overworked? We ALL abide by the same FAR's. Our companies CANNOT legally go over those limits, and none of them do. No one needs that double layer protection to ensure this. The FAA oversight of duty time regulations is enough...no one is being OVERWORKED. Malarchy.

On the NJ board I read of pilots buying new homes, vehicles, boats, etc. Building up their 401Ks and college accounts. Paying off debt and enjoying life for a change. I...

Yea, and like always, people tend to live up to and eventually beyond their means, at which time we will start to hear the whining that the pay isnt high enough. If your pilots werent happy before, they wont be happy now with their higher wages....well deserved without question, but higher that leads to higher spending. Oh, and that retro pay that fell short...will be spent too and bye bye...its gone. Its QOL that matters most, and what goes on between the ears which no union contract can deal with.

By the way, getting it in writing means....well something, but not much. LETS FACE IT>>> there are NO guarantees in life, PERIOD. Just ask DELTA pilots, or the many other airline pilots who saw their companies dissolve into the abyss, union or not. There are no guarantees.

So, the alternative is to find a company who has a track record of taking care of their employees.

By the way, hard work is a necessity in this business. An attitude of "i dont want to work hard or overextend myself" is not an attitude of success.