Flex or Net Jets

[CL604DRVR]

Neither... Go find a good Gulfstream operator. Get a job that fly's 400 hrs a year, pays 70 to 90 for an fo and 140 plus for the Cpt and stay there forever. Everyone thought fractionals were the bomb in the 90's. They are not. Net Jets Union has no teeth due to the archaic RLA. The old way was way better. Pilot "Hey boss i need to talk to you about a raise." Boss "Whats on your mind." Pilot "I need about a 5 % increase per year." Boss "Sorry cant do it" Pilot "ok here is my two weeks notice." Boss "Hold on a minute, your a great guy i dont want to loose you. How about 4% and another week off in the summer to take your kids to the company beach house." Pilot "Deal!"

Most corp jobs are not like that. The scenario you just laid out I have been through except it ended with here's my two-week notice. I also had another airplane sold out from under me. The bottom line is you trade some pay for stability, having hard days off and not having to manage anything. You simply show up work and go home with a fractional.

 

[gunfyter]

Most corp jobs are not like that. The scenario you just laid out I have been through except it ended with here's my two-week notice. I also had another airplane sold out from under me. The bottom line is you trade some pay for stability, having hard days off and not having to manage anything. You simply show up work and go home with a fractional.

Not having been corporate, I simply imagine it would be more like the military where I flew less, but planned more and had a lot of other additional duties and responsibilities. Planning time exceeded flight time.

It was difficult at first to not have that kind of control.

For years I wanted to know what trips I was doing tomorrow. Now I do not get brief sheets sent to me the night before. I don't care about any of it until about 1.5 hrs before the trip. All I want to know is what is my show time.

 

[N1atEcon]

That is why i said "good". Lets face it there are a lot of good companies and some really crappy ones. Why the fractioonals get away with so much abuse is because pilots can live where they want,for the most part. So they put up with the low pay.

 

[FalconPilot69]

I have to agree with CL604. I am currently leaving corporate to go to the fractionals for a number of reasons. Job security is a big one, followed closely by having hard days off. The company I am leaving don't believe in days off and if you don't fly during the week, even though you have to be ready to go, they consider that your day off. Whatever! I do believe that there are the really great corporate companies out there to work for, I unfortunately have not found it. Maybe I am dreaming, but the fractionals still seem to me to be the place to be.

 

[gutshotdraw]

With apologies to Mr. Letterman:

The TOP TEN Reasons why Fractional Flying is WAY Easier than Traditional Corporate

10. You rarely (if ever) have to file a flight plan or calculate a weight and balance.

9. You never have to make a hotel, airline, or car reservation for yourself or your passengers.

8. You never have to arrange international handling agents or wade through piles of paperwork for overflight permits, aircraft importation, customs approvals, etc.

7. You never have to spend hours poring over bills, invoices, etc. and worry whether the boss will lose his mind over how much an inspection cost him.

6. You never have to worry about the boss firing you on the road because his wife didn't like your landing in Teterboro (true story).

5. You never have to worry about the boss demanding you fly him from Sydney to Honolulu to Los Angeles in one shot (true story).

4. You never have to worry about the boss selling the airplane and signing on with a fractional (true story x about 1000).

3. You never have to worry about flying with the same jerk you can't stand every week.

2. You never have to worry about the company stock price diving 20 % and the beancounters telling the CEO "SELL THE AIRPLANES!"

2 A. You get a whole lot more choice in where you live.

and the number 1 reason why Fractional Flying is WAY Easier than Traditional Corporate:

You get more than two weeks a month of HARD, SCHEDULED DAYS OFF where you can throw the pager in a sock drawer.

Sorry kids, reality check. The whole idea of flying fractional instead of NBAA traditional corporate is quality of life. You give up a bit of a salary premium in exchange.

Should NJA pilots get a raise? Heck yea. Should they get what they are demanding? Don't think so.

 

[Heavy Set]

With apologies to Mr. Letterman:

The TOP TEN Reasons why Fractional Flying is WAY Easier than Traditional Corporate

10. You rarely (if ever) have to file a flight plan or calculate a weight and balance.

9. You never have to make a hotel, airline, or car reservation for yourself or your passengers.

8. You never have to arrange international handling agents or wade through piles of paperwork for overflight permits, aircraft importation, customs approvals, etc.

7. You never have to spend hours poring over bills, invoices, etc. and worry whether the boss will lose his mind over how much an inspection cost him.

6. You never have to worry about the boss firing you on the road because his wife didn't like your landing in Teterboro (true story).

5. You never have to worry about the boss demanding you fly him from Sydney to Honolulu to Los Angeles in one shot (true story).

4. You never have to worry about the boss selling the airplane and signing on with a fractional (true story x about 1000).

3. You never have to worry about flying with the same jerk you can't stand every week.

2. You never have to worry about the company stock price diving 20 % and the beancounters telling the CEO "SELL THE AIRPLANES!"

2 A. You get a whole lot more choice in where you live.

and the number 1 reason why Fractional Flying is WAY Easier than Traditional Corporate:

You get more than two weeks a month of HARD, SCHEDULED DAYS OFF where you can throw the pager in a sock drawer.

Sorry kids, reality check. The whole idea of flying fractional instead of NBAA traditional corporate is quality of life. You give up a bit of a salary premium in exchange.

Should NJA pilots get a raise? Heck yea. Should they get what they are demanding? Don't think so.

Hello Mr. Boisture! Great to hear from you. You say give up a BIT of a salary premium? Excuse me? Do you think flying as a Falcon 2000, Citation X, G200 or Sovereign First Officer and earning around $30K per year is acceptable? Do you think flying as a Citation X Captain and earning $55-60K is reasonable? If you do, then you are seriously out of touch with the average salaries for those types of aircraft - irregardless of schedule stability. I know Citation X FOs who are earning $65K per year and they fly maybe 12-15 days per month out of a great location. NJA payscales are seriously out of whack - and that is REALITY Mr. Boisture.... It's apparent to everyone but NJA management...

You're losing your "well trained and experienced" pilots every day to the LCCs and better-paying corporate jobs (good thing Buffet also owns Flight Safety...) and you have rapidly increasing owner turnover - it's time to wake up...

 

[psysicx]

NJI seems like the best deal if you want to fly for the frax's.

 

[Fins Up]

"irregardless" isn't a word.

Grammar police.

 

[Heavy Set]

"irregardless" isn't a word.

Grammar police.

Why don't you lighten up Francis.... Irregardless and regardless are interchangeable. Thanks for caring...

 

[Fins Up]

If you search for "lighten up Francis", you'll find it about a thousand times on this site. Good thought though. Bill Murray's movies are my favorites.

So back to the original thought. They are not interchangeable because irregardless isn't a word. Neither is interchangable.

 

[gunfyter]

ENCARTA says...

irregardless

ir·re·gard·less [ ìrri grdləss ]

adverb Definitions: ( nonstandard )
Same as regardless

 

[Fins Up]

Webster agrees: "Non-standard or humorous usage".

Meaning "I'm using the word improperly intentionally because I'm trying to make fun of them folks who don't talk so good", or "I don't talk so good either."

 

[semperfido]

Maybe I am dreaming, but the fractionals still seem to me to be the place to be.

yep- you are dreaming.

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

Webster agrees: "Non-standard or humorous usage".

Meaning "I'm using the word improperly intentionally because I'm trying to make fun of them folks who don't talk so good", or "I don't talk so good either."

This is an aviation board. Why don't you try saying something about the aviation subjects in this thread. Are you trying to show a bunch of people (who don't even know who you are) that you are smart? By the fact that you can catch spelling errors? You can buy a $100 program that will correct your spelling AND usage. You can't find one that will give you flying skills or knowledge.

Pretty insecure, I'd say. Hey, maybe you could find an English usage board.

Ace (really, really smart guy)

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

yep- you are dreaming.

Don't you just laugh at all these guys who say things like 'job security' and 'QOL' are reasons to LEAVE a corporate job. Any quality corporate pilot that I know would have about 10 offers on the table immediately after his company sold the plane. And QOL, flying the same, respectful people who can actually afford to own a whole jet, pay you a great salary and give you mucho days off, hmmm.

Ace

 

[FalconPilot69]

And QOL, flying the same, respectful people who can actually afford to own a whole jet, pay you a great salary and give you mucho days off, hmmm.
Ace

These would qualify for the good ones as opposed to the bad one that requires 24/7/365 and an average salary in which I am leaving. Yes I knowingly accepted the job but was unaware of the additional baggage that came with it. As I have stated in previous posts, you can either accept what is offered to you and grin and bear in, or see the light at the end of the tunnel and run like h#$l.

 

[semperfido]

Don't you just laugh at all these guys who say things like 'job security' and 'QOL' are reasons to LEAVE a corporate job. Any quality corporate pilot that I know would have about 10 offers on the table immediately after his company sold the plane. And QOL, flying the same, respectful people who can actually afford to own a whole jet, pay you a great salary and give you mucho days off, hmmm.

Ace

what i think is-- there by the grace of you G go i, OR wow i am lucky, OR i hope i never have to do that. BUT in this business Who the H knows!

 

[Hogprint]

gutshot posted:

Should they get what they are demanding? Don't think so.

What is it we are demanding that you are so against? Refresh my memory.

Had another furious owner this week Mr. Bill. Long time guy. Could not actually believe we were going to get him to his destination with no glitches. The flight went off without a hitch, but this guy was venting on the company from the time he walked in the door. The cross hairs are on you Billy. He had no problems with his pilots.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Hogprint,

No problem with his pilots until he gets his new monthly bill and finds out he's paying his Ultra pilots 105 K a year when the rest of the free world pays an Ultra Captain about 75K.

I never said the NJA pilot group doesn't deserve a raise. They do. What I am saying is that the pay scale should be based on equipment and seat position. There has to be some value in seniority in a union shop. If you are senior enough to bid Captain in the Falcon, heck yea you should be making 110 K. But if your seniority at year five will only hold Captain on the Ultra, maybe 75 K tops.

No more bypass pay-- 60% Captain 40% FO. 90% 7-7 schedule 10% flex with extra pay. No more overtime unless duty day exceeds 14 hrs. No more extra money for early callout, hangnails, whatever. Live wherever you want. Pay scale by seniority, seat, and equipment (3 levels: Small cabin eg: Ultra, BE-400; mid-size eg: C-X, G-200; Large Cabin: anything with FA on board and all at 90% of NBAA average for those aircraft sizes). 4 year deal. 3 % COLA raise across the board starting 1 year after DOS. NJI, NJE, EJM status quo. Onward and upward.

By the way, names not Bill and I work for some folks a little further south.

 

[GVFlyer]

gutshot posted:



What is it we are demanding that you are so against? Refresh my memory.

I'd like to know, too. I've heard demands all the way up to $200K in retro pay and 1.2 times NBAA 90th percentile pay (because that multiplier is how much more productive you are than us corporate guys).

I do know that how much you can get is limited, however. You have a very expensive operating model. Corporate mans aircraft at 3 per airplane, you man at over 5 per aircraft. Half of your flying is deadhead. Corporate flys their aircraft on average 400-450 hours per year. With your card programs you may exceed 1200 hours on a single airframe in a year, thereby causing the asset at to lose value at an accelerated rate.

You have a niche market. If a client flys only 100 hours a year, it's cheaper to charter, If he flys 300 hours a year or more, it's most cost efficient to own. The guy who flys 200 hours a year gets the most bang for his buck with a fractional share if he can place his aircraft "into trade" and thereby qualify for tax depreciation. Santulli figured this out, that's why all your tail numbers end in QS for Quarter Share.

The profit basis for your company has changed as well. You used to make money selling airplanes. With airframers backing Citation Shares, FlexJet, Avantair and to some extent, Flight Options, your margins there have shrunk and you must depend on operations for profits.

This means you have no pricing power. Despite what Kevin Russell says, your market share is 47.7%. You can't set pricing among your competitors.

If I buy a 1/8th share Citation Excel/XLS from you, it costs $1,312,500.00, $14,524.00 in monthly management fees and $1,804.00 an occupied hour.

If I buy the same airplane from Citation Shares, it costs $1,312,000.00, $15,200 in monthly management fees and $1,900.00 an occupied hour.

If I buy a 1/8th share of a Lear 45 from Flexjet, it costs $1,258,000.00, $11,320 in monthly management feels, and $1,650.00 an occupied hour.

The point is that you have said that your pay raises should come primarily from increases in monthly management fees. You don't have much margin to increase your management fees before you become overpriced in a competive market place. If you raise your management fees your competitors will not follow suit, they will simply sell more shares and increase their market share as yours diminishes.

You attempt to demonize management, but you have to understand that their first responsibility is not to you, but to the shareholders. Maintaining shareholder value is the principal responsibility of any CEO or president and the board of directors reminds them of this constantly. They must not make an agreement with you that threatens the viability of the company.

What I do is different from what you do, so I'm not sure a comparison is appropriate. You generate revenue for the company. I don't. I'm a productivity multiplier for my company. I play a part in making my company's growth possible, therefore if my company is doing well, I should be doing well. When I take-off, I'm managing a $47,000,000.00 asset for the company and it's my view that I should be compensated in the same manner as any other company executive that is managing a near $50 million business segment. Fortunately, the company agrees.

I meet a lot of great NJA pilots on the road. They deserve a good salary and a decent place to go to work free from the kind of strife that many of the more strident union organizers seem to generate. If you watch carefully, you can see the guys fresh from the military or the regionals, who are just happy to have a job, being approached by the former airline guys who have already killed their last place of employment and other disaffected pilots, who begin their rant about "flying the pledge" and supporting your union brothers.

The traditional union model is not well suited to the global economy of the 21st century in that it is an anti-productive model. That is to say, that the usual thrust of union operations is to try to have more workers, doing less work, at a greater rate of pay.

A more productive model would have the union working with management and pilots to get the most pay possible while insuring the continued health of the company.

Berkshire Hathaway is willing to open up the books. Why don't you look at them, determine what the company can pay and stay in business, demand that, and adopt a new goal of being the best paid company in the fractional business?


GV






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