Flaps....Plain, Slotted, or Fowler??

[BradG]

OK, so i need some help setteling a CFI debate. Were sittin here in the flight school debating what kind of flaps a Cessna 172 has, as well as what kind of Flaps a Piper Cherokee(Archer, Warrior) has. We've looked in the POH and they say nothing other than that they are indeed equipped with flaps. Here are our arguments:

172- The flaps DO move slightly aft, although there is a definate slot.

Warrior- Well, we just think their plain.



Thanks

 

[ShawnC]

172 are fowler, and I believe it says it in the manual too.

Retracted since I check the manual, see my post below.

 

[kmunnpilot1]

C172 = Fowler
Warrior = Slotted


A Piper Tomahawk is a good example of plain flaps.

 

[dkwid]

All Fowler falps have slots. It's unavoidable plus a aerodynamic plus.

 

[TXCAP4228]

The 172 manual does describe the flaps as Fowler.

 

[Typhoon1244]

After seeing FlyChicaga's avatar, blown flaps are sounding better and better...

 

[bobbysamd]

172 flaps

I'll second all of the above, including the comments about Chicaga's avatar.

 

[Typhoon1244]

OK, so i need some help setteling a CFI debate. Were sittin here in the flight school debating what kind of flaps a Cessna 172 has, as well as what kind of Flaps a Piper Cherokee has.

Are you by any chance a Vero Beach FSI instructor? This sounds an awful lot like some of the discussions we used to have.

"Okay, so how does the vertical component of P-factor affect the aileron drag associated with a Chandelle to the left as opposed to one to the right in an airplane with anhedral wings?"

Good grief...step on the ball and be done with it!

 

[fly2002]

hey brad i think I agree with you on the flaps thing. The cessna had fowler flaps...as the manual states. But there could be a debate over the warrior's flaps. The warrior's move slightly back and certainly down but not enough to really be considered fowler. Ok here we go. The warrior flap wasn't designed to let air pass though it (ie. not slotted). Agreeing with kmunn on this the tomahawk is a perfect example of a plain flap. But the warrior flap is not slotted, it's just designed to give a more aerodynamic flow. It's a plain flap too, it's just designed a little more efficiently that's all. Well that's my two cents

 

[ShawnC]

According to the 172S Information Manual it has a single-slot type flap system.

Though according to the FAA def, it's a folwer flap system.

 

[generaltso]

I remember reading somewhere that the flaps on the cessna are fowler for the first 10 degrees, the rest is slotted. Made sense to me.

 

[Typhoon1244]

I know of a few people who would argue things like this on the ground, then when they got in an airplane, couldn't figure out how to enter a hold without drawing it.

Ah, you met my first female private pilot student. She thought that having a masters degree in aerodynamics automatically made her a pilot.

My very best student was a guy who was dumb as a rock. It was torture getting him through the written and oral stuff...but get him in the air, and he was a natural.

(Maybe you have to be dumb to be a really good pilot...?)

 

[Cliff]

Son listen to me!!!!

Pull the lever down, they go down...

Pull the lever up,, they go up...

Now land the airplane...

Good, Very Good.....

Does it matter??? Fly the airplane..........

 

[ShawnC]

Does it matter??? Fly the airplane..........

Actaully it does when the DE asks what type of flaps are on the aircraft.

 

[flywithastick]

Ah, you met my first female private pilot student. She thought that having a masters degree in aerodynamics automatically made her a pilot.

I hear what you're saying, but I had a phd aero engineer psel student once who was both smart and a good stick. a rare combination. We went out to do some acro once after she got her ticket. I usually ease into the acro with new folks, listening for them to "get quiet". We rolled, looped, cuban 8's, reverse 8's, more rolls... Other than a couple of spins, that was her first time to "get upside down" & she stayed right there with me!

Pretty sure KJ's applied to the astronaut program. I'd give her pretty good odds of making it. If she did, it would be neat to say "I taught her how to fly!"

 

[Booker]

Actaully it does when the DE asks what type of flaps are on the aircraft.

That's what I make out to be a running joke where I work: What to say when the DE asks what kind the Seminole has. I've heard everything except fowler: plain, slotted, semi-slotted ,
and split (hey, part of them drops from underneath the nacelle, so they must be split, right?). Whatever. As soon as Piper tells me what kind they are, I'll share it with anyone who asks. Until then, I don't really care.

 

[fulcrum]

The wing flap system in a cesna 172 according to the POH ,
on page 7-10 describes it as a " single slot type wing flap ''

but personally i refer to them as "slotted fowler flaps "

The Guru.

 

[Chunk]

Typhoon is right....these inane discussions get out of hand sometimes here @ FSI. In fact, a few instructors in the heat of debate walked the two blocks down to Piper where they were told that they are.....drumroll.....slotted flaps!

Chunk

 

[bobbysamd]

Stupid flight school discussions

Typhoon is right....these inane discussions get out of hand sometimes here @ FSI . . . .

I'll second that, and especially a few FAR controversies. We had a Chief Pilot at FSI who was convinced that instructors could count their students' approaches as their own for currency. He was also convinced, and tried to convince us, that we could count their night landings as ours. The cheapass didn't want to provide instructors with proficiency time.

(BTW, Chunk, the gentleman in question has been gone for ten years. I know of at least two of his successors, and worked closely with one, and both were vast improvements.)

We had frequent, similar debates at ERAU, too. I'm sure that Tso will agree that ERAU is the home of stupid, and heated, aviation debates, especially those surrounding the Seminole fuel system.

Having said all that, these debates, stupid or not, stimulate learning. They cause you to go into the books and manuals and look up things with a purpose in mind other than just to memorize them for some practical. When learning is purposeful (FOI), you learn, even if just to settle some inane debate.

 

[Chunk]

What is there to debate about a Seminole's fuel system?

If anything, the emergency gear release is debate fodder. It's not described well at all!

Chunk

 

[bobbysamd]

Seminole fuel system

What is there to debate about a Seminole's fuel system?

If anything, the emergency gear release is debate fodder. It's not described well at all!

There seems to be an ongoing debate as to the number of fuel pumps in a Seminole. This has been controversial because DEs seem to have differing opinions.

Some people believe that the primers and throttle pumps count as fuel pumps, along with the electric boost pumps and the regular engine-driven pumps. Somehow, the Janitrol is inserted in this debate somewhere. These debates abounded at Riddle and were also present to a lesser degree during my FSI days.

I won't take a position here on Seminole fuel pumps here because this is a flap discussion, or, shall I say, a flap over flaps!

 

[Chunk]

Okay...you won't join the fray, but I will.

Old Seminole - 5 pumps (2 mechanical, 2 electrical boost, 1 janitrol)

New Seminole -6 (same as before, but 2 on the "Janitorial" heater) Why 2 on the the heater now? Haven't gotten a straight answer on that.

Chunk

 

[Typhoon1244]

Typhoon is right....these inane discussions get out of hand sometimes here @ FSI.

My favorite FSI checkride question came from a four-striper (whose initials are K.P.) who wanted to know where the Seminole's props are manufactured.

Yeah. That's useful knowledge during an engine failure...

 

[ShawnC]

My favorite FSI checkride question came from a four-striper (whose initials are K.P.) who wanted to know where the Seminole's props are manufactured.

Yeah. That's useful knowledge during an engine failure...

Well I know what I would say:
"Up your a$$, stick to the Oral Guide, and PTS a$$hole."

And no I don't care if he would have failed me for saying that.

 

[Chunk]

I heard a lot about that guy even though he's long gone. I guess he barely fit his inflated noggin in the aircraft.

I heard he got spanked quite a few times for crap like that. I'd almost want to get busted for it just for the chance to b*tch about him....

We have a few ego's around (well, maybe leaving soon)....I still have one more checkride to go, then I'll talk!

Chunk

 

[need2AV8]

Fuel to the fire

A very knowledgeable instructor once showed me that the technical aerodynamic definition of a fowler flap is one that increases the wing surface area by at least 25%. I can't recall where he got the info.

In any event, as long as they drop when I tell em to, its all good.

 

[310]

Don't forget the split flap; always stalled if deployed

 

[SkyWestCRJPilot]

Or there was the check airman who asked how many fan blades there are on the N1 fan for the CRJ. That's real useful to know. (28 by the way) I can see it now, "Captain, we just lost the number 18 fan blade!"

 

[Chunk]

Releases where? Not back to the resevoir, as is commonly thought. Why do the gear come down MUCH faster with more force using the emergency knob?

 

[Booker]

Re: Seminole fuel system

There seems to be an ongoing debate as to the number of fuel pumps in a Seminole. This has been controversial because DEs seem to have differing opinions.

Ditto for where I work. Not to compare apples and oranges, but you'll see that in larger aircraft, too. For example, ACA claims the CRJ has three fuel tanks: two in the wings and a CFT. However, ASA counts five, as they count the collector tanks, which are arguably integral to the wing tanks, separately.

(Don't you hate it when you ask a question and the response you get is, "Depends on who you ask"?)