Flag vs. Domestic vs. Supplemental

ceo_of_the_sofa

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Could someone please point me to a section of FAR FC that deals with the explanations for Flag vs. Domestic vs. etc?
 

Andy Neill

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Try CFR49 119.3 Definition:

Domestic operation means any scheduled operation conducted by any person operating any airplane described in paragraph (1) of this definition at locations described in paragraph (2) of this definition:
(1) Airplanes:
(i) Turbojet-powered airplanes;
(ii) Airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of more than 9 passenger seats, excluding each crewmember seat; or
(iii) Airplanes having a payload capacity of more than 7,500 pounds.
(2) Locations:
(i) Between any points within the 48 contiguous States of the United States or the District of Columbia; or
(ii) Operations solely within the 48 contiguous States of the United States or the District of Columbia; or
(iii) Operations entirely within any State, territory, or possession of the United States; or
(iv) When specifically authorized by the Administrator, operations between any point within the 48 contiguous States of the United States or the District of Columbia and any specifically authorized point located outside the 48 contiguous States of the United States or the District of Columbia.

Flag operation means any scheduled operation conducted by any person operating any airplane described in paragraph (1) of this definition at the locations described in paragraph (2) of this definition:
(1) Airplanes:
(i) Turbojet-powered airplanes;
(ii) Airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of more than 9 passenger seats, excluding each crewmember seat; or
(iii) Airplanes having a payload capacity of more than 7,500 pounds.
(2) Locations:
(i) Between any point within the State of Alaska or the State of Hawaii or any territory or possession of the United States and any point outside the State of Alaska or the State of Hawaii or any territory or possession of the United States, respectively; or
(ii) Between any point within the 48 contiguous States of the United States or the District of Columbia and any point outside the 48 contiguous States of the United States and the District of Columbia.
(iii) Between any point outside the U.S. and another point outside the U.S.
Domestic operation means any scheduled operation conducted by any person operating any airplane described in paragraph (1) of this definition at locations described in paragraph (2) of this definition:
(1) Airplanes:
(i) Turbojet-powered airplanes;
(ii) Airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of more than 9 passenger seats, excluding each crewmember seat; or
(iii) Airplanes having a payload capacity of more than 7,500 pounds.
(2) Locations:
(i) Between any points within the 48 contiguous States of the United States or the District of Columbia; or
(ii) Operations solely within the 48 contiguous States of the United States or the District of Columbia; or
(iii) Operations entirely within any State, territory, or possession of the United States; or
(iv) When specifically authorized by the Administrator, operations between any point within the 48 contiguous States of the United States or the District of Columbia and any specifically authorized point located outside the 48 contiguous States of the United States or the District of Columbia.
Empty weight means the weight of the airframe, engines, propellers, rotors, and fixed equipment. Empty weight excludes the weight of the crew and payload, but includes the weight of all fixed ballast, unusable fuel supply, undrainable oil, total quantity of engine coolant, and total quantity of hydraulic fluid.
Flag operation means any scheduled operation conducted by any person operating any airplane described in paragraph (1) of this definition at the locations described in paragraph (2) of this definition:
(1) Airplanes:
(i) Turbojet-powered airplanes;
(ii) Airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of more than 9 passenger seats, excluding each crewmember seat; or
(iii) Airplanes having a payload capacity of more than 7,500 pounds.
(2) Locations:
(i) Between any point within the State of Alaska or the State of Hawaii or any territory or possession of the United States and any point outside the State of Alaska or the State of Hawaii or any territory or possession of the United States, respectively; or
(ii) Between any point within the 48 contiguous States of the United States or the District of Columbia and any point outside the 48 contiguous States of the United States and the District of Columbia.
(iii) Between any point outside the U.S. and another point outside the U.S.

Supplemental operation means any common carriage operation for compensation or hire conducted with any airplane described in paragraph (1) of this definition that is a type of operation described in paragraph (2) of this definition:
(1) Airplanes:
(i) Airplanes having a passenger-seat configuration of more than 30 seats, excluding each crewmember seat;
(ii) Airplanes having a payload capacity of more than 7,500 pounds; or
(iii) Each propeller-powered airplane having a passenger-seat configuration of more than 9 seats and less than 31 seats, excluding each crewmember seat, that is also used in domestic or flag operations and that is so listed in the operations specifications as required by §119.49(a)(4) for those operations; or
(iv) Each turbojet powered airplane having a passenger seat configuration of 1 or more and less than 31 seats, excluding each crewmember seat, that is also used in domestic or flag operations and that is so listed in the operations specifications as required by §119.49(a)(4) for those operations.
(2) Types of operation:
(i) Operations for which the departure time, departure location, and arrival location are specifically negotiated with the customer or the customer's representative;
(ii) All-cargo operations; or
(iii) Passenger-carrying public charter operations conducted under part 380 of this title.
 

ceo_of_the_sofa

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OK, so Delta and USAirways would fall under flag and domestic, but not supplemental? While Piedmont would be strictly domestic? And places like ATA or Allegiant (and World perhaps) would fall under supplemental?

Based on the above, Express Jet would be both domestic and flag, because they fly to Mexico and Guatemala?

Am I uderstanding this correctly?

Thanks,
ceo.
 

JAFI

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It is all a mater of what type of operation a carier wishes to apply for, prove they can operate as (and get approval for), and have in their Operations Specifications. They can pretty much have all or part of Domestic, Flag, Supplemental, etc.

JAFI
 

Indy refugee

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I am sure US Air does all three.

Domestic CLT - LAX

Flag PHL - LHR

Supplemental - charter for sports team and others.

At Indy, for example, we did AOL and NCAA charters under supplemental, while the rest of the operation was domestic. Under ACA, we did Toronto and Montreal under domestic. That's the exemption they talk about in the reg.
 

ceo_of_the_sofa

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Ok, all makes sense now, thanks all.
 

say again

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OK, now I'm lost!!!:laugh: JK
 

igneousy2

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121 is simple...do whatever the approved manual says to do. If the manual says you're domestic...you're domestic...if it says you're flag...you're flag...very simple.

later
 

BoDEAN

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Would AE be just Domestic? I am sure they fly to Puerto Rico, and wonder if that would make then a Flag also.
 

JAFI

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BoDEAN said:
Would AE be just Domestic? I am sure they fly to Puerto Rico, and wonder if that would make then a Flag also.
It depends "if" they have the authorization..They can be just Domestic. Remember, Puerto Rico is a US territory.

(iv) When specifically authorized by the Administrator, operations between any point within the 48 contiguous States of the United States or the District of Columbia and any specifically authorized point located outside the 48 contiguous States of the United States or the District of Columbia.

JAFI
 

igneousy2

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You can fly anywhere outside the country and still be "domestic".

..."and ANY specifically authorized point outside the United States"...

American Eagle has two certificates...The Simmons (MQ) certificate is the domestic certificate that the Saabs, ERJ's, and CRJ's operate under. It is a domestic certificate that also authorizes Eagle to go to Canada, Mexico, and the Bahamas. The Executive certificate are the ATR's. Each "Airline" has it's own Manuals, it's own Dispatch, it's own Crew Scheduling, it's own chief pilots.

American has a single certificate that with both Domestic and Flag authorization. From a pilot's perspective as an example, you have two choices if you were to bid LAX-FO...you can either bid LAX-FO-Domestic or LAX-FO-International. Although located in geographically the same place, each "base" is treated seperately, with seperate bid packets, seniority lists, vacation bids. Generally, the international base does international flying and the domestic base does domestic stuff, but they both overlap occassionally. LAX-JFK is an example (still?). The difference was an international crews trip might be LAX-JFK-LHR where a domestic crews trip would be LAX-JFK-ORD. The interesting part was when an international crew got to JFK, they would have to abide by Flag rest rules, and when a Domestic crew got to JFK they would abide by Domestic rest rules.

Don't worry about it too much...it all makes sense when you live it for a couple of months.

Later,

ig
 
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