First CFI job - Need assistance

[BoDEAN]

I have a job offer from an FBO. The gentleman and his partner run it, and his partner is leaving, and wants to hire me. He said the other guy made about $27,000 in a year time. He has 150 students, and Averages 12 hrs a day (flight hours).

What kind of questions should I ask / inquire on with the company? I would need health insurance.

Is this the average pay that a CFI makes?

 

[generaltso]

Ask him how his instructors end up averaging 12 hours of dual a day.

 

[Speedtree]

I would be careful.

If they are splitting up there could be all kinds of issues.

If you are a new CFI you should know that the FARs prohibit flying more than 8 hours in a 24 hour period. (unless they changed the rules in the last few years, which I doubt), so this should be the first clue that this might not all be true.


Things to ask/consider.

How long have they been in business?

What kinds of airplanes do they have? Do they own them or are they leased back to the FBO from the a/c owners?

Who does the maintenance?

What kind of insurance does the company have, for you and the airplanes? will you be liable for anything?

Talk to the instructor leaving and any others who worked there.
Talk to the students/pilots who deal with the owner. What kind of boss will he/she be.

$27,000 is a good wage for a flight instructor. What are the parameters? How much is guaranteed? What is the minimum hours you must work?

Flight instructing is a tiring, stressful, demanding business if you put your best into it. Your students and aviation as a whole reflect on the quality of instruction you give so don't sell out to any owner or for hours or money. You will get tired so be prepared to give yourself a break now and then. You can't work 7 days a week every week and continue to provide quality instruction. I would question anyone who thinks they can keep track of and train 150 students at once.

I am sure there is more but that's my take for now.

Always do the right thing and you won't regret it.

 

[airgator]

Gizbug-
Not for nothing but use your head and think logically how someone could end up "averaging" 12 hrs a day of FLIGHT time? What do they do have designated ground school insrtructors and leave the planes running while they hot fuel and swap out students?

 

[mainah]

I have a job offer from an FBO. The gentleman and his partner run it, and his partner is leaving, and wants to hire me. He said the other guy made about $27,000 in a year time. He has 150 students, and Averages 12 hrs a day (flight hours).

What kind of questions should I ask / inquire on with the company? I would need health insurance.

Is this the average pay that a CFI makes?

Is that 12 hours all flight instruction? Cause 61.195 clearly spells out that you can only do 8 hours of flight instruction in any 24 hour period. If I am off base someone correct me but, sounds like you would overfly your limits. Also, those numbers sound high to me however maybe they are more normal for your area.

 

[great cornholio]

12 hours of flight time would be illegal for a CFI cause the max in 24 hrs is 8 hrs. But if you instruct 7 days a week then you will get burnt out really fast. I would say instruct 5 days a week max that way you dont burn out too quick. Also take a good look at the condition of the aircraft. Its good to build hours but you dont want to earn a violation in the process.

 

[Flyingtoohigh]

Congrats on the job offer!

The health insurance thing might be tough. The majority of FBO-run schools I know of use contract instructors -- that is the student pays the FBO for the plane and pays the instructor separately for his/her time. Unless you actually become an employee of the FBO and the FBO offers health insurance, you might be on your own to acquire insurance.

Again, good luck with the job offer. Someday I hope to have a CFI job offer, too.

 

[BoDEAN]

The 12 hrs may include some ground time, and not all flying. I am meeting with him next Friday (he's 2 1/2 hrs away) for the details on the job. I just wanted to have a list of questions before I went in to talk to him. I plan on asking why his partner is leaving. Is he going to the majors? Curious

 

[PennEagle]

How many students .....

It's all covered above, but you might also try and find out how many of the 150 students are active. The school I joined some time ago boasted 400 students ~ that figure turned out to be the totally number of people who'd signed up since the school opened!

Once you've completed Speedtree's list, I'd stand back look at the whole operation and ask yourself, "Can I make my mark here?" After all, you're going to represent half the flight instructor corps, so the place (and the student #s) will ultimately be a reflection of your drive and quality.

 

[BoDEAN]

Sounds like a good start! I am in the process of finishing up my CFII and MEI, so I would have to see if someone there could finish me up, and if there were discounts for doing it there. Here is some of the info on the business that I have my eye on:

-Aircraft rental
-Private thru ATP training
-Tail wheel and complex training
-Formation Training
-Spin Training
-Aerobatic Training
-Instrument Training
-Aircraft purchasing service (Inspection, Finance and delivery)
-Ferry service
-Computerized scheduling
-Aviation Summer Camp
-USAF Flight screening program prep course
-Scenic Tours

The 4 planes they fly are :
Cessna 150
Piper Tripacer
Piper Super Cruiser
Piper Arrow

I've only flown a 150. It will be fun to fly the other 3.

 

[Salty Dog]

Hmmm. 12 hrs a day X 5 days/week X 50 weeks/yr = 3000 hrs.

Even with two days per week off and two weeks vacation per year you still only get 9 bucks an hour. If that's the going rate and you really don't pull down those hours - you won't, see FARs above- then you won't see that level of pay. Period.

Could be that the guy is an eternal optimist - you'd have to be to go into the aviation business in the first place, right? - and not really trying to snow you. However, it is in your best interest to keep your expectations realistic going into it so you don't end up bitter and disappointed later on. Accordingly, I'd ask to see some numbers. Pay stubs, past schedules, and a conversation or two w/some students should paint a clearer picture.

You owe it to yourself. Good luck.

 

[skychaser]

If what your soon to be employer sais is correct then:
If you fly 7 days a week at an average of 12/hrs a day (which as others said is illegal unless some is ground school) you will be make a whopping 6.25/hr!

If you work an average of 12 hrs a day for 5 days a week, your hourly wage works out to be $9.375/hr.

Doesn't sound like a good deal to me. Even if that 12 hours includes 8 hours flying and 4 hours of ground....that's going to burn you out in a month!

Jobs are hard to come by these days, which makes some people accept offers they otherwise would not even consider. Make sure you get the facts and base your decision on them. 150 students is really not many...I would bet that not even half of them fly full time.

Good luck!

 

[bobbysamd]

Job offer!!

Congratulations on the job offer!! See, I told you that persistence would pay off eventually in terms of an offer. That means that you might get other offers as well.

Even before I scanned the other posts I had the same reaction regarding the eight hours of instruction per 24-hours rule. Better clarify that; if instructors are indeed flying 12 hours per 24 they're busting the FARs. You do not want to be placed in such a position in your very first job.

I also would clarify pay. $27K per year is excellent money for an entry-level flying job of any kind. I never made that kind of money - although my best of $25K was in 1991 dollars. I made less in each succeeding full-time job. I assume that it would be hourly, so you will have good periods and slack periods and your paychecks won't be consistent.

Also clarify off time. You should be given at least one day a week off. Don't hold your breath about health insurance. So many FBOs are shoestring operations and offer few, if any, benies.

The USAF Flight Screening program might be fun. That would be something I would enjoy doing even today. I've instructed AF personnel. They're usually very intelligent, highly motivated, and do what you tell them to do the first time.

Having said all that, the only negative I see is the question of 12 hours of dual a day. Entry-level jobs are hard to come by, even during good times. Ask them to clarify all your concerns. Listen critically and objectively. If they clarify your concerns to your satisfaction, I would say that you should take the job.

 

[BoDEAN]

It's 12 hour days - not flying

It's 12 hour days, not necessarily all flying.
Sorry for the mis-wording.

I will know more next week. My parents want me to find out health insurance, because my current job does offer that. I guess if this FBO doesnt offer it, then I don't have it.

Thanks for the replies

 

[siucavflight]

gizbug
If you are putting in twelve hour days, it does not matter if it is ground or flying, you are only making about 9 buck an hour. That is awful pay for a flight instructor. True 27,000 a year is not bad, but if you work that many hours you might want to kill yourself, and then 27,000 does not seem like that much.

I think one of two things are happening here.
1. Either you are pulling our leg
2. Your perspective boss is lying to you

My bet is on number one.

 

[PA-44Typed]

TAKE IT!!! Unless you feel that its not a safe operation!! Jobs for low timers don’t grow on trees! Like I said if the maintenance is good and they promote a safe working environment TAKE IT!!!!!!!
~PA-44Typed

 

[bobbysamd]

12-hour days

gizbug
If you are putting in twelve hour days, it does not matter if it is ground or flying, you are only making about 9 buck an hour.

Perhaps . . . but I worked plenty of twelve-hour, and longer, days when I was working. Twelve-hour days are commonplace in a busy flight school - and you want your school to be busy, or else you don't work, and you don't make money.

I worked plenty of seven-day weeks and it didn't kill me, but a pleasant work environment is important. There was a time when I worked seven-day weeks for a place that I loathed because of how I was treated. I liked my students just fine but I resented the psychology of working at a place I hated seven days a week. Having said that, no matter how much you love what you're doing, you need at least one day off a week to give yourself a chance to recoup.

Once more, look at the overall picture. I would not turn down the job strictly because it doesn't offer health (if it doesn't). You can always maintain your current health insurance under COBRA if you leave your current job, although it could cost you. Or else, you can sign up at an HMO like Kaiser for a reasonable amount.

I also reiterate my earlier comments and those that followed. Aviation jobs never grow on trees, even during good times. Take it from someone who really does know. You should think seriously about accepting the offer.

 

[BoDEAN]

gizbug
If you are putting in twelve hour days, it does not matter if it is ground or flying, you are only making about 9 buck an hour. That is awful pay for a flight instructor. True 27,000 a year is not bad, but if you work that many hours you might want to kill yourself, and then 27,000 does not seem like that much.

I think one of two things are happening here.
1. Either you are pulling our leg
2. Your perspective boss is lying to you

My bet is on number one.

I had one phone conversation with him. It lasted 15 min. He told me he was interested in hiring me, and wanted to know when I could come out. I said next Friday. He said "My partner averaged about 27,000 dollars a year." How is that pulling your leg? I will have more detail next Friday on the in's and out's

 

[Geigo]

Gizbug,

Some more things to think about if you end up being an independent contractor verses an employee.

As a contractor not only will you be required to find your own insurance (deductible for taxes) but you will also be paying all of the employement taxes yourself verses half if you were an employee. Get used to saving money to make quarterly estimated tax payments.

Also a very big one is unemployment insurance. If you are a contractor and the school goes belly up for whatever reason you will not be eligible for unemployment unless you paid into the pool.

Good luck with the interview. I had a ball instructing. There were a couple that I didn't want to fly with (one I didn't) and it was hard work, but probably one of the most rewarding experiences in my flying.

 

[BoDEAN]

Thanks. I'll keep everyone posted.

 

[BoDEAN]

Tomorrow is my day to shine. I meet with the guy at the airport at 10am.

Thanks to all who have helped come up with some questions to ask. If you have anymore, please let me know now =P

I'll let you all know how it turns out.

 

[bobbysamd]

Questions for the interviewer

How long do people stay?

Opportunities for advancement?

Most important: "When can I start?"

Finally, ask for the job.

Good luck with your interview.

 

[Timebuilder]

Give it your best shot.

I know at least one old instructor who is hoping you do well.



Maybe I'll get to play a pilot on Hack...

 

[JJJ]

-USAF Flight screening program prep course

How does this work?

 

[bobbysamd]

USAF Flight Screening

I know most of this but maybe some AF types who went through the program can also jump in and explain further.

The Air Force has had a flight program in which it screened candidates for flight training. There was a program at the Air Force Academy as well as a contract program at Hondo, Texas. The candidates were screened to see if they had an aptitude for flying. Potential UPT candidates were given a certain number of hours of instruction by military instructor pilots in T-41s, which are the AF and Army versions of 172s; the primary difference being that T-41s were powered by 210 hp Continentals instead of Lycomings. The ones who had aptitude were sent on to UPT.

I recall last fall that ERAU was advertising for instructors and training managers to operate the pilot screening program at the Academy. I recommended it as a good instructing gig for someone who wants to work with intelligent, motivated students. I have had AF personnel as students, and found them to be that way.

As you can well imagine, competition for UPT slots is intense, hence, the need for a prep program. I don't know the details of the program at Gizbug's potential employer's, but I'm sure it is aimed strictly at AF personnel who want to get into UPT.

 

[BoDEAN]

Well....I'm back with an update.
Here are the details.

Start at $25 / hr, move up to $30 / hr after first month.
I would be an independant contractor with him, meaning I have to pay my own insurance. He has about 150 students now between him and I, and he does a ground school every 6 weeks two nights a week. He said I would pocket all of that, and he charges 100 dollars for the ground school.

I would have some GREAT responsibilities. He would expect me to do some maintenance on the planes (ie. oil change, change tires, etc). I would have to keep track of the 100 hr's on all 4 planes, and when they are up for 100 hr, fly them 40 miles away to another airport for them to have maintenance. Most of his students are private pilot candidates.

Basically, students go to a website, schedule a plane and if him or I are out there...we fly with them. So it is more than just a "CFI" job. He wants me to basically be a Chief Flight Instructor, and maintain the place. What an opportunity for a "first cfi job!"

So right now I am a little overwhelmed, with all the tasks. But I am sure I will adapt over time. I guess being a first timer here in the "CFI" world I am a tad nervous with the demands on me. But I know I will do well, once my "nervousness" goes away.

He teaches out of GLIEM. He has the whole Gliem kit, and thats what he uses for lesson plans. He didn't like my general private pilot knowledge today (ie. airspace on sectional, vfr minimums, ways to enter at a non-controlled field). I guess I was nervous, and he wants to give me a mock private private checkride next week. I am not use to flying into and out of an uncontrolled field.

Any comments?

 

[labbats]

Ginzbug,

If you're the same person who posted on ILSapproach.com, why not start with those suggestions? If you aren't, well, there's a red flag for you, because a week ago, someone asked the same questions on another board. My suggestion then is the same as now. You're getting snowed. Call the old flight instructor and find out what is really going on. The owner you spoke with is misleading you. I repeat, HE IS NOT TELLING THE WHOLE STORY. Find out from the one guy that knows and is impartial. The old instructor.

Best of luck regardless~

 

[BoDEAN]

Being a chief flight instructor = being snowed? please explain

 

[siucavflight]

gizbug,
i do not want to sem like such a pessimist but this job sounds way to good to be true. Espically for someone who has no experience flight instructing, a chief instructor job? Even after he realized that your knowledge of airspace and ability to enter a uncontrolled airport was weak. Something just does not seem right, if he asks for you to sign any papers with him, bring them to a lawyer and ask his opinion. If everything that he told you is true then take the job without question and know that you have at least one fellow instructor on here who is very envious.

 

[bobbysamd]

Hmmmmm . . . . . .

I would be an independant contractor with him, meaning I have to pay my own insurance . . . .

. . . . as well as not having some rights that you ordinarily would have as a normal employee. I hate to be one who always looks at things with a jaundiced eye, but let's be practical. If your employment were to be terminated your rights to such things as unemployment insurance may not be as clear-cut as if you were a normal employee. Also, your right to use Workers' Comp insurance may not be clear-cut.

I would have some GREAT responsibilities. He would expect me to do some maintenance on the planes (ie. oil change, change tires, etc). I would have to keep track of the 100 hr's on all 4 planes, and when they are up for 100 hr, fly them 40 miles away to another airport for them to have maintenance.

Do you have any maintenance experience and/or an A & P? Not that you necessarily need either to change tires to change oil. You can learn how to change oil. I cannot remember if an A & P is required to inspect and/or sign off the safety wiring for the oil filter and/or drain plug or the cotter pin on the wheel hub . . . I don't think that is required. I recall that private pilots or better can perform certain types of maintenance on aircraft, e.g. tire changes and oil changes, but they cannot do such things as dress out nicks on props without an A & P's supervision.

So it is more than just a "CFI" job. He wants me to basically be a Chief Flight Instructor, and maintain the place. What an opportunity for a "first cfi job!"

. . . . and also an opportunity to be used and abused, cheated and lied to. On the other hand, you won't be making this job your career.

I also don't like how he wants to give you a mock private ride when you are already a flight instructor. Here he is, all hot to hire you, but is questioning your quals.

(By the way, it may not be a bad idea to bone up on airspace if your knowledge is weak. Airspace knowledge is very important, especially these days with TFRs, etc. popping up everywhere, not to mention the risk of busting a Class B.)

Something isn't sounding right here. I agree with the others; there's more here than meets the eye. Try to find out why your predecessor left before you commit.