Filing IFR for local approach work

[cookmg]

Hello!

How would I go about filing an IFR flight plan for local approach work? Specifically, if the weather will be IMC, I must have a flight plan AND a clearence, so how do you file for multiple approaches?

Can you do one flight plan with the routing to be RV XYZ RV ABC RV XYZ? Or, must you file individual flight plans for each "leg".

Basically, is it possible to file an IFR flight plan with multiple approaches at different airports?

I had trouble doing this, but I was using tower-enroute control routings? Does flight service not accept multiple approaches with tower-enroutes?

Thanks. Hope that was clear.

 

[Timebuilder]

first, I'd use one airport.

When I wanted to do multiple approaches, I called the tower supervisor to find out what would be easiest for them. He had me use a fix which is used for a missed on one of our approaches. The filed route was "direct (name of fix) direct", with the destination the same airport where I was taking off from. Then, departure would vector me for as many approaches as I could afford .

Your tower has dealt with this before, so why not ask what they'd like? They love it when you keep them in the loop.

 

[KingAirer]

If ya want to begin and end at the same airport file just that. Under route file to an NDB or VOR etc. etc.. for one of the airports you are going to. Under remarks, IFR Training; Multipile Approaches. When ATC gets this theyll know what you are doing. They will probably say "state intentions".

 

[cookmg]

So, if you are doing a x-c and would like to shoot an approach at some airport along the way, you should file to your final destination and include in the routing an appropriate fix for the approach you would like to shoot along the route? Then you would put in the remarks section that you would like to do an ILS or VOR etc. approach at xyz airport?

 

[KingAirer]

A little different for X/C. I normally just file 2 Flight plans. One to the first place, then on to the ultimate destination. You can certainly do it with just one flight plan, i just dont want to have to explain everything to ATC and work through their puzzled responses. When its a local one, refer to my previous post.

There is really no set way to do it, it just whatever works in your area and how accomedating ATC is.

 

[wanabe_fo]

I have used this as well

I will file to airport number 1 and do the approaches there, then ask the controller if he can change my clearance limit back to the destination and clear me back. This generally works if there are no more than two or three controlling agencies along the flight path. Otherwise it is multiple flight plans.

Wanabe

 

[bobbysamd]

Local filing

One unofficial trick I learned was to telephone the TRACON directly and file with them; either tell them you want to shoot approaches or submit a full flight plan. Just tell them what you want to do; nine times out of ten you'll get extremely courteous cooperation. You'll get back a departure frequency and code. Don't forget to get a clearance limit, etc., in case of lost comm.

Otherwise, you have to file two flight plans; one to the airport in question and one back home. Before your miss for the last approach you put your clearance on request for going home and pick up your clearance during the miss. Maybe you can get it before the approach while you're being vectored around.

 

[AeroDMB]

filing IFR

When I trained and taught I used a radial/DME off my home airport VOR with a short ETE (loss of com, less holding) for local airport approaches. Most Approach/Departure computers won't accept departure airport the same as the arrival airport.

Approaches at a different airport within approx. 30 miles: I have experience just filing to the destination with my local RAPCON, without filing back. They usually expect this in my type of training environment.

Other approaches beyond the terminal area will require filing to the airport and back to your home airport.

One more thing, I always had students put remarks such as "practicing NDB holding and approaches at _ _ _), it's helpful if the controlling agency knows of your intentions, but they will most likely ask again when airborne.

That's my experience with the filing and what worked in my training area (which was saturated).

Have fun.

 

[KingAirer]

QUOTE]Most Approach/Departure computers won't accept departure airport the same as the arrival airport[/QUOTE]

This is certainly not the case in most areas. Even if filing via duats it will still accept the clearance.

 

[XLR8]

I trained in the MSP area where there are a lot of satelite airports. I did my training out of an airport that didn't have any approaches (a sweet little grass strip SYN). I used to file one flight plan as:

SYN-21D-STP-ANE-MIC-FCM-SYN

In the remarks section I'd put "Practice Approaches" or "Instrument Training", something like that...I'd usually leave it up to the briefer, they can always think of something creative.

If you get a chance, go to an airport and do a PAR approach! They're lots of fun too!

Fly Safe!

 

[cookmg]

Is XLR8 saying that you can put airports in the route of flight section? If you will take off from airport A, then do approaches to airports B and C could you file:

Departure Airport: A

Destination: A

Route of Flight:

direct B direct C direct

??

Does any of this change if you will go missed or land?

Also, as far as modifying your clearence limit once airborne, won't you have to have the destination and ETE modified on your flight plan? A clearence to a new airport doesn't mean you have a flight plan for that destination, correct?

thanks

 

[Cardinal]

The flight plan isn't all that sacred. Once you've launched ATC will not worry about your ETE. Your last example would work just fine. Once you are airborne you can set aside what you've filed and haggle with ATC directly. You get what you negotiate. While on a round-robin flight plan I even got a pliant approach controller to temporarly cancel my IFR clearance and leave me in the system while I ran into an FBO briefly (for obvious reasons) and he had a release waiting for me when it was time to blast off. Not to sound cavalier, but file whatever works (i.e, the computer accepted it) and then work out the details with the controller. Lost comms? Memorize the rules, that's approximately what a controller will expect from you, but use your head.

 

[cookmg]

Cardinal . . . thanks for your reply. And, no, it doesn't sound cavalier . . I understand what you are saying.

My concern is that FARs require both an applicable IFR clearence and IFR flight plan . . . separate things. So, if you haggle with ATC to get what you want once airborne, you would still need your flight plan to be appropriate for your actual flight right? You can't fly in IMC without an appropriate IFR flight plan on file, correct?

 

[XLR8]

cookmg

basically that's what I was saying. We would file a round robin (as some people call it) with the departure airport and destination airport being the same place.

I've even heard clearnces given as "You're cleared to St Paul via round robin, climb and maintain.......etc."

When shooting an approach we would usually get "the option" if it was available, probably do a touch and go, or go missed and head to the next airport!

There were some days when we'd go up for 2 hours and shoot 8-9 approaches! Man, what a long 2 hours! Fun though!

Fly Safe!

 

[U-I pilot]

University Ops

Here at University of Illinois we do this all the time. We dont even file through FSS. We call up on clearance and say local IFR request and tell them what we want and where (there are about 4 airports within about 30-40 miles they control for) and they give us a clearance. Its a real pain when 5 or more aircraft all try to get clearances at the same time. Then when all the private people are doing touch and go's we always hear "maintain at or above 2000' throughout the approach" doesnt help for step downs or an ILS

 

[Patriot328]

One of the things I loved about Daytona was "Local IFR". We'd just call up like we were a VFR flight trying to leave the Class C but asked for a Local IFR. They'd give us a squawk and we'd have free reign in Daytona's airspace to go to any of the local airports (New Smyrna, Deland, Flagler CO, and DAB itself) and do the approaches.

Didn't have to deal with FSS or any filing of a flight plan.

 

[cookmg]

Isn't that illegal!

14 CFR Section 91.173: ATC clearance and flight plan required.

No person may operate an aircraft in controlled airspace under IFR unless that person has --

(a) Filed an IFR flight plan; and

(b) Received an appropriate ATC clearance.

________________

It seems that in many places, pilots are routinely flying under IFR WITHOUT filing an IFR flight plan. So far, no one has any legal justification for why this would be allowed. The FARs are pretty clear that a clearence and a flight plan are two SEPERATE and INDEPENDENT items that are BOTH necessary for operations under IFR.

2 Questions:

1) Can anybody provide a legal justification for flying under IFR without verifying that an "IFR flight plan" is on file?

2) Why is this very explicit regulation so misunderstood and/or neglected? I mean, I know examiners and Jet pilots in disagreement over this.

Thanks

 

[Timebuilder]

I think what you are referring to is a lack of filing a flight plan via the normal methods.

If you are granted a clearance for local IFR, the controller you speak with is noting the pertinent information on paper, and THAT is your flight plan, filed with ATC.

Simple, eh?

 

[cookmg]

Timebuilder,

If you are granted a clearance for local IFR, the controller you speak with is noting the pertinent information on paper, and THAT is your flight plan, filed with ATC.

I have been under this impression throughout my training, but it has been brought to my attention that this commonly accepted idea may not really be true. The way I think about it is, 91.173 requires both a clearence and a flight plan. If you could assume that a flight plan came with every clearence, then whey the requirment to file AND get a clearence? Why two requirements if you automatically get them both with a clearence?

Doc's website had a similar discussion which is where I got the reasoning for this position. Please review his comments as they are likely to be articulated far better AND they come with his reputation for knowing the FARs.

Thanks.

http://www.propilot.com/doc/bbs/messages//8297.html http://www.propilot.com/doc/bbs/messages//8309.html http://www.propilot.com/doc/bbs/messages//8303.html

 

[bobbysamd]

Pop-up IFR

Further to Timebuilder's comments, another way to look at it is in terms of "popping up." People do it all the time. Let's say you're flying along VFR and the weather goes down at your destination. You just call Center and request IFR to your destination. Center will receive your information and issue you a clearance. All the information it receives constitutes your flight plan.

I recall a paragraph in the Instrument Flying Handbook about filing IFR in flight. Filing with FSS is the correct way, but you can make it work by filing with Center.