Filing IFR for local approach work

[cookmg]

Is XLR8 saying that you can put airports in the route of flight section? If you will take off from airport A, then do approaches to airports B and C could you file:

Departure Airport: A

Destination: A

Route of Flight:

direct B direct C direct

??

Does any of this change if you will go missed or land?

Also, as far as modifying your clearence limit once airborne, won't you have to have the destination and ETE modified on your flight plan? A clearence to a new airport doesn't mean you have a flight plan for that destination, correct?

thanks

 

[Cardinal]

The flight plan isn't all that sacred. Once you've launched ATC will not worry about your ETE. Your last example would work just fine. Once you are airborne you can set aside what you've filed and haggle with ATC directly. You get what you negotiate. While on a round-robin flight plan I even got a pliant approach controller to temporarly cancel my IFR clearance and leave me in the system while I ran into an FBO briefly (for obvious reasons) and he had a release waiting for me when it was time to blast off. Not to sound cavalier, but file whatever works (i.e, the computer accepted it) and then work out the details with the controller. Lost comms? Memorize the rules, that's approximately what a controller will expect from you, but use your head.

 

[cookmg]

Cardinal . . . thanks for your reply. And, no, it doesn't sound cavalier . . I understand what you are saying.

My concern is that FARs require both an applicable IFR clearence and IFR flight plan . . . separate things. So, if you haggle with ATC to get what you want once airborne, you would still need your flight plan to be appropriate for your actual flight right? You can't fly in IMC without an appropriate IFR flight plan on file, correct?

 

[XLR8]

cookmg

basically that's what I was saying. We would file a round robin (as some people call it) with the departure airport and destination airport being the same place.

I've even heard clearnces given as "You're cleared to St Paul via round robin, climb and maintain.......etc."

When shooting an approach we would usually get "the option" if it was available, probably do a touch and go, or go missed and head to the next airport!

There were some days when we'd go up for 2 hours and shoot 8-9 approaches! Man, what a long 2 hours! Fun though!

Fly Safe!

 

[U-I pilot]

University Ops

Here at University of Illinois we do this all the time. We dont even file through FSS. We call up on clearance and say local IFR request and tell them what we want and where (there are about 4 airports within about 30-40 miles they control for) and they give us a clearance. Its a real pain when 5 or more aircraft all try to get clearances at the same time. Then when all the private people are doing touch and go's we always hear "maintain at or above 2000' throughout the approach" doesnt help for step downs or an ILS

 

[Patriot328]

One of the things I loved about Daytona was "Local IFR". We'd just call up like we were a VFR flight trying to leave the Class C but asked for a Local IFR. They'd give us a squawk and we'd have free reign in Daytona's airspace to go to any of the local airports (New Smyrna, Deland, Flagler CO, and DAB itself) and do the approaches.

Didn't have to deal with FSS or any filing of a flight plan.

 

[cookmg]

Isn't that illegal!

14 CFR Section 91.173: ATC clearance and flight plan required.

No person may operate an aircraft in controlled airspace under IFR unless that person has --

(a) Filed an IFR flight plan; and

(b) Received an appropriate ATC clearance.

________________

It seems that in many places, pilots are routinely flying under IFR WITHOUT filing an IFR flight plan. So far, no one has any legal justification for why this would be allowed. The FARs are pretty clear that a clearence and a flight plan are two SEPERATE and INDEPENDENT items that are BOTH necessary for operations under IFR.

2 Questions:

1) Can anybody provide a legal justification for flying under IFR without verifying that an "IFR flight plan" is on file?

2) Why is this very explicit regulation so misunderstood and/or neglected? I mean, I know examiners and Jet pilots in disagreement over this.

Thanks

 

[Timebuilder]

I think what you are referring to is a lack of filing a flight plan via the normal methods.

If you are granted a clearance for local IFR, the controller you speak with is noting the pertinent information on paper, and THAT is your flight plan, filed with ATC.

Simple, eh?

 

[cookmg]

Timebuilder,

If you are granted a clearance for local IFR, the controller you speak with is noting the pertinent information on paper, and THAT is your flight plan, filed with ATC.

I have been under this impression throughout my training, but it has been brought to my attention that this commonly accepted idea may not really be true. The way I think about it is, 91.173 requires both a clearence and a flight plan. If you could assume that a flight plan came with every clearence, then whey the requirment to file AND get a clearence? Why two requirements if you automatically get them both with a clearence?

Doc's website had a similar discussion which is where I got the reasoning for this position. Please review his comments as they are likely to be articulated far better AND they come with his reputation for knowing the FARs.

Thanks.

http://www.propilot.com/doc/bbs/messages//8297.html http://www.propilot.com/doc/bbs/messages//8309.html http://www.propilot.com/doc/bbs/messages//8303.html

 

[bobbysamd]

Pop-up IFR

Further to Timebuilder's comments, another way to look at it is in terms of "popping up." People do it all the time. Let's say you're flying along VFR and the weather goes down at your destination. You just call Center and request IFR to your destination. Center will receive your information and issue you a clearance. All the information it receives constitutes your flight plan.

I recall a paragraph in the Instrument Flying Handbook about filing IFR in flight. Filing with FSS is the correct way, but you can make it work by filing with Center.