• NC Software is proud to announce the release of APDL - Airline Pilot Logbook version 10.0. Click here to view APDL on the Apple App store and install now.
  • Logbook Pro for Apple iOS version 8.1 is now available on the App Store. Major update including signature endorsements and dark/light theme support. Click here to install now.

Fighter Disputes

Dizel8

Douglas metal
Joined
Feb 27, 2003
Posts
2,817
Total Time
Huh?
Geez Sig, why don't you go patriot act yourself!

Just because the whole world isn't out to get you, doesn't mean YOU shouldn't be paranoid.

I hate to tell you, since you might live in a nuclear bunker somwhere, that the topic wrt the F-15 is publicly available in a vast arena of avenues, heck, it was recently discussed in the same commercial magazine that post launch information on US military satelites, maybe you need to go bang on their door.

But I guess, a military forum on a website which seem to have some intelligent contributors isn't the place to discuss the potential COST benefits of retaining a sizeable Air Force.

Maybe you need to tell Congress as well as the Commander in Chief, that their input wrt. the procurement of new planes will be disregarded, after all,the lead in post in this thread was about the budget for F-22s and how a high ranking gentlemen disagreed with the assesment.

As for the capabilities of the F-15, they are readily available on the internet, as is the composition of the Chinese and Russian Airforce.

However, in this discussion it was simply a COST relative issue. I do not give a hoot about RCS, Look down-shoot down capabilty, or how far away the lastest AMRAAM can quire a target. (BTW, alot of THAT information is also publicly available)

PS. Tell Mr.Cheney I said hi!
 
Last edited:

Dizel8

Douglas metal
Joined
Feb 27, 2003
Posts
2,817
Total Time
Huh?
Hey Magnum, love to respond, but apparently it could jeopardize national security!

I hope you get 1000 F-22s :)
 

coho92

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 25, 2004
Posts
59
Total Time
1992
Not that the opinion of a heavy guy matters but as a life long buda driver, I want to push in behind the best bird out there and today that is o longer the eagle. we spent the 90s fixing airlift with the 17, now's the time for new F's & KC's cux the bill for the B's comes due in 10-15 years. Either pony up the cash or lets just say to heck with and pull back to a continental defense strategy that worked so well in the 1880's.

my 2 cents
 

SIG600

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 18, 2001
Posts
1,592
Total Time
375
Hey Magnum, love to respond, but apparently it could jeopardize national security!

The only threat is talking specifics that Magnum alluded to.

If you really believe that everything is available on the internet, go find me a SAR-2 timeline. Better yet, how about you find me the specifics on the employment and full capabilities of a Slotback II and an AA-12.

My point is, for reasons way beyond cash band-aiding our current gen of fighters is a horrible idea. Something you refuse to accept, but the honest to god reasons can not be discussed here in detail. I don't want to be on either side of a fair fight. I want to be on the team that is better equipped, better trained, and more experienced. We're losing that edge.
 
Last edited:

Dizel8

Douglas metal
Joined
Feb 27, 2003
Posts
2,817
Total Time
Huh?
Magnum,

You must have misunderstood me, I wasn't saying that the Air Force should not procure F-22 in large numbers, what I was saying, is that according to the article I saw, the Air Force was considering not spending the money to repair the F-15s currently in the inventory.

The prices listed were relatively low and hence it struck me as odd that they were debating the issue. IMHumbleO, it seemed like the cost of the repair was low, compared to the overall cost of the asset and the performance, in a relative manner, of same.

Without a doubt the F-22 is a better airplane than the F-15, as will all of the next gen fighters probably be.

According to Magnum, the MIG21B has now become a formidable weapon, when in the past it would more than likely have been considered inferior. Obviously, something has changed, and it doesn't appear to have been the basic airframe, hence it must have been radar and missile technology. Something I am sure we are working on as well:) and while I am sure the F-15 will never be as good as a F-22, and I agree we should get as many F-22 as we can, it seems that there are indeed case where the F-15 is a viable asset.

The long of the short is, at least the way I see it, is that I am trying to give you a bigger Air Force, with more planes, by spending the relatively few bucks to fix the F-15, while at the same time procuring F-22s.

That make sense???

Here is what your friends say about the Flanker:
http://www.sponauer.com/flankeracm/index.html
 

SUNDOWN

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 25, 2004
Posts
108
Total Time
+9K
Sig......you need to lighten up dude. These boards are meant for discussion. Your condecending tone is old.
 

bagasticks

fist fornicator
Joined
Sep 6, 2006
Posts
190
Total Time
>1
Somewhat off the point here. . .always been curious how does the raptor stack up to the TYphoon? If you cant answer . . dont, just curious because it looks pretty impressive. . .
 

NewmanF16

Well-known member
Joined
May 30, 2007
Posts
115
Total Time
3400
Dizel,

The Af recently cut 40,000 jobs in an effort to save money to buy more F-22s. Leadership has decided that labor is too expensive, and we can continue to do more with less. Each airframe on the ramp likely needs 20 bodies to support it, so less airframes saves a lot of $. I'm sure we'd love to have more airframes, but there isn't $ there to support them.
 

Birdstrike

Atlantic City
Joined
Jul 2, 2002
Posts
13,318
Total Time
Ike
Political ramifications now are interesting too. The pendulum seems to have swung over to the Army, for now, and the USAF's stock within The Building is certainly at a low point, something many of us there have never seen before. Some of it was self-inflicted but as bad off as the USAF claims to be in recapitalization, the ground forces are even worse off and will be in the tubes for quite a while cleaning sand out of compressors. Still, Air Force congressional connections are a mighty force and their hunk of the budget is still the largest, just not as large (as a %) as it used to be or as the service wants. The Air Force has always been the most politically adept service, making end runs around the civilian leadership whenever it felt it had to, and mostly successfully. Their problems this time seem to stem from not just pissing off the Pentagon and its civilian leadership, but also Congress. Having both peeved at you at the same time will make it tougher. My money is still on them to get the additional airframes in the end (jobs), but they'll actually have to work at it this time...
 

Kuma

Happy to be here!
Joined
Jun 7, 2003
Posts
68
Total Time
8900
on!

Sig, you are spot on.

True, this is a discussion forum, but these topics are not up for discussion.

Sundown is probably just an interested bystander, but how would you be sure?

Has anyone seen the Dozer .ppt? It represents all the more reason to stay away from these discussions.

Kuma
 

SUNDOWN

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 25, 2004
Posts
108
Total Time
+9K
Sig, you are spot on.

True, this is a discussion forum, but these topics are not up for discussion.

Sundown is probably just an interested bystander, but how would you be sure?

Has anyone seen the Dozer .ppt? It represents all the more reason to stay away from these discussions.

Kuma

Kuma I assure you that I am not a flight info lurking foreign spy (but as it is impossible for you to know that and for me to know that anybody on here does what they say they do...so I get your point ). To be perfectly honest I am really not that interested in what what type of fighters the A/F flies. I just think sig needs to not be such a d!ck.
 

Dizel8

Douglas metal
Joined
Feb 27, 2003
Posts
2,817
Total Time
Huh?
Kuma,

I agree wholeheartedly with your point, that US Air Force tactics, and capabilities should not be part of discussion. As I have said multiple times, I just found it odd, that what I felt amounted to a flat tire, is cause for completely giving up on the F-15, an airplane that has been upgraded just recently.

I think that Newman pointed it out very well, that there just isn't money in the budget and that the Air Force is forced to work within that budget. That seems to be a very reasonable answer.
 

SIG600

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 18, 2001
Posts
1,592
Total Time
375
Kuma I assure you that I am not a flight info lurking foreign spy (but as it is impossible for you to know that and for me to know that anybody on here does what they say they do...so I get your point ). To be perfectly honest I am really not that interested in what what type of fighters the A/F flies. I just think sig needs to not be such a d!ck.

It's not about being a dick. The simple fact is that, for reasons that can't be discussed here, we need something beyond the F-15 and every other current gen US fighter. If that insults your intelligence, I'm sorry. It's not for public discussion and is classified beyond Secret.

Dizel, yes there is a Mig-21 upgrade out there that, as stupid as it sounds... is scary. Really, a 40 year old Cat 3 fighter being a threat?!?! Yes, it's true. A Google search will probably reveal a lot for you. Aviation Week will probably tell you a lot too.


Kuma I assure you that I am not a flight info lurking foreign spy (but as it is impossible for you to know that and for me to know that anybody on here does what they say they do...so I get your point ). To be perfectly honest I am really not that interested in what what type of fighters the A/F flies. I just think sig needs to not be such a d!ck.

You should be concerned, because as cliche as it may sound... what we field today to compete with current Russian and Chinese threats is going to have a direct impact US security for your children.
 
Last edited:

Dizel8

Douglas metal
Joined
Feb 27, 2003
Posts
2,817
Total Time
Huh?
Sig ,

Appreciate the response:)

Yes, the MIG upgrade from the Russians and the Israelis certainly seems to breathe new life in the type.

One must think that, AESA Helmet mounted sights and Aim 9X capability will be in high demand with other F-15 operators.
 
Last edited:

SUNDOWN

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 25, 2004
Posts
108
Total Time
+9K
You should be concerned, because as cliche as it may sound... what we field today to compete with current Russian and Chinese threats is going to have a direct impact US security for your children.

I didn't say I wasn't concerned for my childrens safety, just not that interested. Outside of looking kinda cool, I don't know anything about that stuff. I will leave that to those of you in the know.
 

Dizel8

Douglas metal
Joined
Feb 27, 2003
Posts
2,817
Total Time
Huh?

Dizel8

Douglas metal
Joined
Feb 27, 2003
Posts
2,817
Total Time
Huh?
If the F-22 offered for export, I think you might see a few NATO allies considering it as well.
 
Top