They don't stack up well... we'll leave it at that. The New gen fighters that Magnum listed off are a serious threat to our capabilities, and our ability to stand up against anyone that tries to impose their will on us.
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Fighter Disputes
- Thread starter Birdstrike
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They don't stack up well... we'll leave it at that. The New gen fighters that Magnum listed off are a serious threat to our capabilities, and our ability to stand up against anyone that tries to impose their will on us.
Depends on your math.
F-22 EMD runs about $19B. Production costs are ~$41B. Total: $60B. Divide by 183 jets, and each F-22 costs ~$325M. That's a lot of scratch.
Dizel8
Douglas metal
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Ok, a bunch of guys in the know have told you multiple times that you are wrong. You're out of your league in this discussion, and you don't fully understand capabilities/tactics that are out there. Nor is it anything you need to know, or will be talked about on here. Give it a rest already.
Dizel8
Douglas metal
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Geez Sig, why don't you go patriot act yourself!
Just because the whole world isn't out to get you, doesn't mean YOU shouldn't be paranoid.
I hate to tell you, since you might live in a nuclear bunker somwhere, that the topic wrt the F-15 is publicly available in a vast arena of avenues, heck, it was recently discussed in the same commercial magazine that post launch information on US military satelites, maybe you need to go bang on their door.
But I guess, a military forum on a website which seem to have some intelligent contributors isn't the place to discuss the potential COST benefits of retaining a sizeable Air Force.
Maybe you need to tell Congress as well as the Commander in Chief, that their input wrt. the procurement of new planes will be disregarded, after all,the lead in post in this thread was about the budget for F-22s and how a high ranking gentlemen disagreed with the assesment.
As for the capabilities of the F-15, they are readily available on the internet, as is the composition of the Chinese and Russian Airforce.
However, in this discussion it was simply a COST relative issue. I do not give a hoot about RCS, Look down-shoot down capabilty, or how far away the lastest AMRAAM can quire a target. (BTW, alot of THAT information is also publicly available)
PS. Tell Mr.Cheney I said hi!
Just because the whole world isn't out to get you, doesn't mean YOU shouldn't be paranoid.
I hate to tell you, since you might live in a nuclear bunker somwhere, that the topic wrt the F-15 is publicly available in a vast arena of avenues, heck, it was recently discussed in the same commercial magazine that post launch information on US military satelites, maybe you need to go bang on their door.
But I guess, a military forum on a website which seem to have some intelligent contributors isn't the place to discuss the potential COST benefits of retaining a sizeable Air Force.
Maybe you need to tell Congress as well as the Commander in Chief, that their input wrt. the procurement of new planes will be disregarded, after all,the lead in post in this thread was about the budget for F-22s and how a high ranking gentlemen disagreed with the assesment.
As for the capabilities of the F-15, they are readily available on the internet, as is the composition of the Chinese and Russian Airforce.
However, in this discussion it was simply a COST relative issue. I do not give a hoot about RCS, Look down-shoot down capabilty, or how far away the lastest AMRAAM can quire a target. (BTW, alot of THAT information is also publicly available)
PS. Tell Mr.Cheney I said hi!
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Not that the opinion of a heavy guy matters but as a life long buda driver, I want to push in behind the best bird out there and today that is o longer the eagle. we spent the 90s fixing airlift with the 17, now's the time for new F's & KC's cux the bill for the B's comes due in 10-15 years. Either pony up the cash or lets just say to heck with and pull back to a continental defense strategy that worked so well in the 1880's.
my 2 cents
my 2 cents
The only threat is talking specifics that Magnum alluded to.
If you really believe that everything is available on the internet, go find me a SAR-2 timeline. Better yet, how about you find me the specifics on the employment and full capabilities of a Slotback II and an AA-12.
My point is, for reasons way beyond cash band-aiding our current gen of fighters is a horrible idea. Something you refuse to accept, but the honest to god reasons can not be discussed here in detail. I don't want to be on either side of a fair fight. I want to be on the team that is better equipped, better trained, and more experienced. We're losing that edge.
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Dizel8
Douglas metal
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Magnum,
You must have misunderstood me, I wasn't saying that the Air Force should not procure F-22 in large numbers, what I was saying, is that according to the article I saw, the Air Force was considering not spending the money to repair the F-15s currently in the inventory.
The prices listed were relatively low and hence it struck me as odd that they were debating the issue. IMHumbleO, it seemed like the cost of the repair was low, compared to the overall cost of the asset and the performance, in a relative manner, of same.
Without a doubt the F-22 is a better airplane than the F-15, as will all of the next gen fighters probably be.
According to Magnum, the MIG21B has now become a formidable weapon, when in the past it would more than likely have been considered inferior. Obviously, something has changed, and it doesn't appear to have been the basic airframe, hence it must have been radar and missile technology. Something I am sure we are working on as well
and while I am sure the F-15 will never be as good as a F-22, and I agree we should get as many F-22 as we can, it seems that there are indeed case where the F-15 is a viable asset.
The long of the short is, at least the way I see it, is that I am trying to give you a bigger Air Force, with more planes, by spending the relatively few bucks to fix the F-15, while at the same time procuring F-22s.
That make sense???
Here is what your friends say about the Flanker:
http://www.sponauer.com/flankeracm/index.html
You must have misunderstood me, I wasn't saying that the Air Force should not procure F-22 in large numbers, what I was saying, is that according to the article I saw, the Air Force was considering not spending the money to repair the F-15s currently in the inventory.
The prices listed were relatively low and hence it struck me as odd that they were debating the issue. IMHumbleO, it seemed like the cost of the repair was low, compared to the overall cost of the asset and the performance, in a relative manner, of same.
Without a doubt the F-22 is a better airplane than the F-15, as will all of the next gen fighters probably be.
According to Magnum, the MIG21B has now become a formidable weapon, when in the past it would more than likely have been considered inferior. Obviously, something has changed, and it doesn't appear to have been the basic airframe, hence it must have been radar and missile technology. Something I am sure we are working on as well
and while I am sure the F-15 will never be as good as a F-22, and I agree we should get as many F-22 as we can, it seems that there are indeed case where the F-15 is a viable asset.The long of the short is, at least the way I see it, is that I am trying to give you a bigger Air Force, with more planes, by spending the relatively few bucks to fix the F-15, while at the same time procuring F-22s.
That make sense???
Here is what your friends say about the Flanker:
http://www.sponauer.com/flankeracm/index.html
bagasticks
fist fornicator
- Joined
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NewmanF16
Well-known member
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- May 30, 2007
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- 115
Dizel,
The Af recently cut 40,000 jobs in an effort to save money to buy more F-22s. Leadership has decided that labor is too expensive, and we can continue to do more with less. Each airframe on the ramp likely needs 20 bodies to support it, so less airframes saves a lot of $. I'm sure we'd love to have more airframes, but there isn't $ there to support them.
The Af recently cut 40,000 jobs in an effort to save money to buy more F-22s. Leadership has decided that labor is too expensive, and we can continue to do more with less. Each airframe on the ramp likely needs 20 bodies to support it, so less airframes saves a lot of $. I'm sure we'd love to have more airframes, but there isn't $ there to support them.
Birdstrike
Atlantic City
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- Jul 2, 2002
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- 13,334
Political ramifications now are interesting too. The pendulum seems to have swung over to the Army, for now, and the USAF's stock within The Building is certainly at a low point, something many of us there have never seen before. Some of it was self-inflicted but as bad off as the USAF claims to be in recapitalization, the ground forces are even worse off and will be in the tubes for quite a while cleaning sand out of compressors. Still, Air Force congressional connections are a mighty force and their hunk of the budget is still the largest, just not as large (as a %) as it used to be or as the service wants. The Air Force has always been the most politically adept service, making end runs around the civilian leadership whenever it felt it had to, and mostly successfully. Their problems this time seem to stem from not just pissing off the Pentagon and its civilian leadership, but also Congress. Having both peeved at you at the same time will make it tougher. My money is still on them to get the additional airframes in the end (jobs), but they'll actually have to work at it this time...
Kuma
Happy to be here!
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