FFDO Video

[John Pennekamp]

You sound like some left-wing hippie. Hillary Clinton would LOVE you! First off, while prior shooting experience is not a requirement, most of the FFDO's out there are ex-military or have been shooting for a long time. As for the crash axe, not sure what kind of airplane you fly, but I have taken it out of the holster to see how useful it would be. There isn't enough room to swing it without taking the Capt's head off. In those "cramped confines of a cockpit" you speak of, a gun is MUCH more effective.

I will be leaving this Sunday for Artesia.

Uh huh. Go ahead and back that statement up with hard numbers. I know very many FFDOs and very few of them had any mil or law experieice before volunteering.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

ummm, you didn't get what i was going after at all, and you just confirmed it...

I have a good story about an FFDO, but you are too busy combing that great cop mustache to care I guess.

If I didn't get what you meant, please try again.
Not sure how you are making the connection between my ego and my desire to save my life. You think practicing V1 cuts is ego-driven?
I don't consider it a "cop mustache", BTW. "Porn Star" is the effect I was going for...
Let's hear the FFDO story. I've a couple of good dispatcher ones, also.
I guess we could take isolated stories about any work group and make it sound bad, eh?

 

[John Pennekamp]

I think it's entirely possible he tried out and flunked the psych tests.
World-class sour grapes.

That lame argument is always the first and best y'all can come up with. Please. Why in the HELL would I apply in the first place if I feel this strongly?

No you're right. You're better than me. After all, it takes a superior intellect and cat like reflexes to pass that psych test and a WHOLE WEEK of law enforcement training. I guess I just couldn't make the cut

 

[John Pennekamp]

John Y the anger?!

Because I'm tired of hearing FFDOs run around actind like they're some kind of 007 because they carry a gun. It's sad how a gun emboldens even the biggest cowards.

 

[flyflorida2001]

Uh huh. Go ahead and back that statement up with hard numbers. I know very many FFDOs and very few of them had any mil or law experieice before volunteering.

I NEVER SAID THAT THEY MOSTLY HAD MILITARY OR LAW ENFORSEMENT EXPERIENCE!! If you are going to critize me, open your eyes and read what I wrote. I said that the vast majority are ex-military or have been shooting for a while. I fall into the second catagory. I am an NRA instructor, the son of an NRA instructor, and the grandson of an NRA instructor. I have been shooting since I was 4. Watch the ABC video. They very clearly state in there that 8 had never shot before. The class they filmed had over 50 people in it. That means that the VAST MAJORITY were experienced shooters to some degree.

By the way, with your ideas of security, remind me never to fly with you!

 

[Hobit]

John,

I think you may have run in to people that haven't thought honestly about doing the deed in a real situation.

Carrying a weapon is not a joke but it's just like a shovel, it's a tool and it's useless until you need it to do something. And yes it is something that requires a great deal of contemplation prior. When the situation arises, it is not a time to rationalize what you are going to do.

Sorry you have such a stigma about the whole thing.

Not a 007....

 

[oldxfr8dog]

John,

I think you may have run in to people that haven't thought honestly about doing the deed in a real situation.

Carrying a weapon is not a joke but it's just like a shovel, it's a tool and it's useless until you need it to do something. And yes it is something that requires a great deal of contemplation prior. When the situation arises, it is not a time to rationalize what you are going to do.

Sorry you have such a stigma about the whole thing.

Not a 007....

Well said, Hobit.
And to be honest to John, I have also met people that are FFDOs for all the wrong reasons.
They're not the majority, though.

 

[FR8mastr]

Statistics prove time and time again that you are more likely to be shot if you posess a gun and something bad occurs than if you don't. You are also more likely to die from your own gun than theirs. Think about that, Rambo.

Give me a break, Where do you banners come up with this crap. Rosie Odonnell, and the rest of the gun banners only wish this were the case. Do you know that in every single state that has enacted the right to carry, crime has gone down. Do you know that in DC where guns are as restricted as they were in Russia under Stalin that city has the honor of being the highest or next to highest murder rates?. Or how about England and Austrailia, crime rates through the roof, right after they banned and confiscated the majority of the guns. Of course you know this, but it does not fit in the gun ban plan. Take a look at real stats, from the FBI not crap made up by the ban crowd.

 

[COOPERVANE]

I believe in the FFDO program and may apply to do it.

But.

50% of the FFDO's I have flown with would qualify as "unstable" eg. Doing it for the wrong reason. Napoleon complex etc... One told me he couldn't WAIT to get a badge "That'd be cool" he said.

One actually briefed me about how he would have to shoot me if I tried to open the door without his authorization. No kidding.
I asked, what if we both were BOTH FFDO's and I tried to open the door. He said with a straight face, "well, we would see who was the best shot I guess"

O.K. corral in the cockpit, two dead pilots and a locked door.

Scary Scary

 

[flyflorida2001]

I believe in the FFDO program and may apply to do it.

But.

50% of the FFDO's I have flown with would qualify as "unstable" eg. Doing it for the wrong reason. Napoleon complex etc... One told me he couldn't WAIT to get a badge "That'd be cool" he said.

One actually briefed me about how he would have to shoot me if I tried to open the door without his authorization. No kidding.
I asked, what if we both were BOTH FFDO's and I tried to open the door. He said with a straight face, "well, we would see who was the best shot I guess"

O.K. corral in the cockpit, two dead pilots and a locked door.

Scary Scary

Not sure where you work, but I have flown with quite a few FFDO's and have never seen anything except for professional behavior and professional attitudes.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

I believe in the FFDO program and may apply to do it.

But.

50% of the FFDO's I have flown with would qualify as "unstable" eg. Doing it for the wrong reason. Napoleon complex etc... One told me he couldn't WAIT to get a badge "That'd be cool" he said.

One actually briefed me about how he would have to shoot me if I tried to open the door without his authorization. No kidding.
I asked, what if we both were BOTH FFDO's and I tried to open the door. He said with a straight face, "well, we would see who was the best shot I guess"

O.K. corral in the cockpit, two dead pilots and a locked door.

Scary Scary

I think you need to reconsider your word "unstable" in your examples, "wanting a badge" vs. "threatening to shoot you".
If you have a Professional Standards Committee, especially an FFDO PSC or Air Carrier Security Committee, you should talk with them. If you don't, PM me for further.
There ARE some that shouldn't have that responsibility. Go to a third-party, non-company source.
I think he was kidding. If he wasn't, you NEED to talk with someone.
Someone that is unstable shouldn't be in a cockpit, armed or not.

 

[vectorvictor]

Besides, didn't the feds already federalize airport security (TSA), thereby making the airport incredibly safe? Seriously though . . . .flying the plane is my job, fueling the plane is the fuelers job, and protecting the plane is the TSA's job.

Last I checked the TSA representatives are comfortably on the ground when I am in the air. If I do a bad job I crash the plane. If they TSA screws up someone else tries to crash the plane for me. Until we make TSA agents randomly ride with passengers and bags they screen for travel, (like the airborne's do with the parachutes they pack) I'll be willing to carry a gun at work.

 

[vectorvictor]

OR LOCK THE F-ING COCKPIT DOOR AND LAND AT THE FIRST SIGN OF TROUBLE! DUH!!! WE DON'T NEED A GUN TO PROTECT OURSELVES FROM TERRORISTS!!!

9-11 occured because the flight crew LET THEM IN!!! That will never happen again.

The "hardened" cockpit door may still be penetrable, but it buys me enough time to grab a crash axe. I don't need a gun!

Statistics prove time and time again that you are more likely to be shot if you posess a gun and something bad occurs than if you don't. You are also more likely to die from your own gun than theirs. Think about that, Rambo.

I'm sure your WHOLE WEEK of law enforcement training fully prepared you to protect your weapon and exert deadly force in the heat of battle in the cramped confines of a cockpit.

"BAA"

 

[John Pennekamp]

I NEVER SAID THAT THEY MOSTLY HAD MILITARY OR LAW ENFORSEMENT EXPERIENCE!! If you are going to critize me, open your eyes and read what I wrote. I said that the vast majority are ex-military or have been shooting for a while.

Please kindly tell us exactly how many of the current FFDOs were previously in the military or "have been shooting for a while". I rest my case.

I fall into the second catagory. I am an NRA instructor, the son of an NRA instructor, and the grandson of an NRA instructor. I have been shooting since I was 4. Watch the ABC video. They very clearly state in there that 8 had never shot before. The class they filmed had over 50 people in it. That means that the VAST MAJORITY were experienced shooters to some degree.

In one class. Of 50. Not exactly a scientific sample. See the above argument.

By the way, with your ideas of security, remind me never to fly with you!

You may already have.

 

[John Pennekamp]

John,

I think you may have run in to people that haven't thought honestly about doing the deed in a real situation.

Carrying a weapon is not a joke but it's just like a shovel, it's a tool and it's useless until you need it to do something. And yes it is something that requires a great deal of contemplation prior. When the situation arises, it is not a time to rationalize what you are going to do.

Sorry you have such a stigma about the whole thing.

Not a 007....

Well said, Hobit.
And to be honest to John, I have also met people that are FFDOs for all the wrong reasons.
They're not the majority, though.

Thanks for at least two rational responses. Most of the others proved my point for me. It kinda scares me that such short fused hotheads are running around with guns.

I'm sure that many FFDOs are doing it for the "right reasons", particularly those who went through The Program in its early days.

However, from my personal experience in talking to many pilots from many airlines, very few are doing it for the "right reasons". Most I've discussed it with will say "I like the gun" or "to bypass security" or "for the hand to hand combat training", or "for the badge", or something along those lines. This is why I have a problem with the program.

 

[John Pennekamp]

I believe in the FFDO program and may apply to do it.

But.

50% of the FFDO's I have flown with would qualify as "unstable" eg. Doing it for the wrong reason. Napoleon complex etc... One told me he couldn't WAIT to get a badge "That'd be cool" he said.

One actually briefed me about how he would have to shoot me if I tried to open the door without his authorization. No kidding.
I asked, what if we both were BOTH FFDO's and I tried to open the door. He said with a straight face, "well, we would see who was the best shot I guess"

O.K. corral in the cockpit, two dead pilots and a locked door.

Scary Scary

So true. I'd put it at 90%.

I had several FOs laugh and tell me "if someone pounds on that door you better duck" or something along those lines. Another told me to be sure the FAs didn't barge in or they'd get shot. One of them was my wife. I really didn't appreciate that.

Once I was on a Delta Maddog jumpseat, and an FFDO FO told me "If someone breaks in I'm going to shoot right through you. Sorry." His captain just glared at him. I was too shocked to respond. I'd have asked to get off if we hadn't already pushed back.

I could go on and on. All told I've only met a handful who are calm and professional about their duty. The vast majority strut around like some kind of cowboy, and it seems that usually the ones with prior law enforcement or military experience are the worst about that.

 

[John Pennekamp]

I think you need to reconsider your word "unstable" in your examples, "wanting a badge" vs. "threatening to shoot you".
If you have a Professional Standards Committee, especially an FFDO PSC or Air Carrier Security Committee, you should talk with them. If you don't, PM me for further.
There ARE some that shouldn't have that responsibility. Go to a third-party, non-company source.
I think he was kidding. If he wasn't, you NEED to talk with someone.
Someone that is unstable shouldn't be in a cockpit, armed or not.

That's like asking a frat to police itself for ecessive drinking. Having the FAMs take over the program is a good start, but until a completely independent agency oversees the program, these problems will persist. Again, too many pilots have been pushed into it for all the wrong reasons.

 

[John Pennekamp]

"BAA"

Predictable response. Very mature. Yea, I'm glad you're flying around with a gun. Another one proves my point.

 

[oldxfr8dog]

Thanks for at least two rational responses. Most of the others proved my point for me. It kinda scares me that such short fused hotheads are running around with guns.

I'm sure that many FFDOs are doing it for the "right reasons", particularly those who went through The Program in its early days.

However, from my personal experience in talking to many pilots from many airlines, very few are doing it for the "right reasons". Most I've discussed it with will say "I like the gun" or "to bypass security" or "for the hand to hand combat training", or "for the badge", or something along those lines. This is why I have a problem with the program.

My experience is different. I have been in the program "since the early days", and the FFDOs doing for the reasons you stated are far in in the minority.
I've also talked with a few that stated they had signed up for the wrong reasons, but realized how important it was, DURING training.
John, you don't know vulnerable you are. Having actual live bodies rush you in the cockpit would change your opinion about crash axes and such.
Additionally, I and MANY others spend our own money for additional advanced training after Artesia. It's not a "one-week, you're done" thing.
I don't want to be a cop, I couldn't care less about a badge. My son was a cop for years. That job SUCKS.
I just want to protect myself and my airplane.

 

[FishandFly]

I believe in the FFDO program and may apply to do it.

But.

50% of the FFDO's I have flown with would qualify as "unstable" eg. Doing it for the wrong reason. Napoleon complex etc... One told me he couldn't WAIT to get a badge "That'd be cool" he said.

One actually briefed me about how he would have to shoot me if I tried to open the door without his authorization. No kidding.
I asked, what if we both were BOTH FFDO's and I tried to open the door. He said with a straight face, "well, we would see who was the best shot I guess"

O.K. corral in the cockpit, two dead pilots and a locked door.

Scary Scary

I think you are lying.

 

[FishandFly]

Thanks for at least two rational responses. Most of the others proved my point for me. It kinda scares me that such short fused hotheads are running around with guns.

I'm much more fearful that someone as illogical as you is in a cockpit at all. Who ever let you solo?

 

[FlySacto]

Thanks for at least two rational responses. Most of the others proved my point for me. It kinda scares me that such short fused hotheads are running around with guns.

I'm sure that many FFDOs are doing it for the "right reasons", particularly those who went through The Program in its early days.

However, from my personal experience in talking to many pilots from many airlines, very few are doing it for the "right reasons". Most I've discussed it with will say "I like the gun" or "to bypass security" or "for the hand to hand combat training", or "for the badge", or something along those lines. This is why I have a problem with the program.

I'll probably go through the program. I don't think it's going to do anything to make me feel like a "big man" by getting a gun or a badge. I'm former military and qualified expert marksman on every weapon I trained on. I learned to shoot as a kid and competed in small bore rifle and handgun metallic silhouette. I enjoy guns and shooting.

While I think that the chances of someone trying to take over an airplane I'm flying are real real slim, the chances are not zero. I know that I'll fly more WITHOUT the gun than I will since there's some hassle compared to the free pass through security. For me the incentive is to be better educated on how we are to deal with situations on the aircraft, learn more defense techniques other than the "cockpit kungfoo" we've had, and add another number to the rolls of potential obstacles to anyone wanting to re-celebrate 9/11. Added bonuses are getting a well made firearm and training to use it, free ammo, and the thought that I'm doing something that might make a difference to promote safety and security. I also hope to be a role model to my young kids as someone who is willing to do something about problems by going out of my way to contribute.

Just wondering. How does this stack up?

 

[COOPERVANE]

I think you are lying.

WHAT? You think I'm lying? Who the F--k do you think you are!

Why would I lie. I actually support the FFDO program.

I am also a Firearm instructor on the side. I simply think that there are some wrong reasons for wanting a gun, I see it every week as an instructor.

As for calling the TSA, the cavalry, and reporting this guy. We came to an understanding. He was DEAD serious about shooting me if necessary and it probably says in the manual to do so If I try and let a hijacker in. But let's not make it part of the standard brief.

Kind of reminds me of the "you know, I could kill you with one finger if I wanted to", routine I used to hear from my 18 year old Marine buddies.

 

[Caveman]

FFDO question: What, if any, are the education requirements?

I flew with a FFDO a while back and he mentioned something about it, saying that even if you aren't officailly required to have a 4 year degree you won't be accepted to the FFDO program without one. Just curious if it's true.

Not true.

 

[dingo222]

One actually briefed me about how he would have to shoot me if I tried to open the door without his authorization. No kidding.
I asked, what if we both were BOTH FFDO's and I tried to open the door. He said with a straight face, "well, we would see who was the best shot I guess"

Here's to you Mr. Steely-eyed, pistol toting hawkeye. You make us all feel safer knowing that you will blasy anyone that gets in your sight picture of the bad guys. Have a bud

 

[John Pennekamp]

I'm much more fearful that someone as illogical as you is in a cockpit at all. Who ever let you solo?

I'm illogical? Your whole rebuttal is hurling insults at me? YES give this mentally unstable guy a GUN! Another point made.

 

[mynameisjim]

I view the weapon like a seatbelt. Somewhere someday I might need it to save my life, so I always wear it. Odds are I will never need it.

Do you wear your seatbelt?

 

[FishandFly]

WHAT? You think I'm lying? Who the F--k do you think you are!

Who do I think I am?? I think I'm a person with an opinion on what you stated.

Although I agree that there is usually 1 percent of any group that tries hard to screw up the professionalism of the group as a whole, I think it is more believable that you are either full of bs or exaggerating than imagining that an ffdo told you he was going to shoot you, let alone suggesting that 1/2 of all the ffdo's you've met were cowboys.

 

[FishandFly]

I'm illogical? Your whole rebuttal is hurling insults at me? YES give this mentally unstable guy a GUN! Another point made.

Pelosi,

I am not hurling insults at you.

Read back over your own posts. All that you do is try to argue any negative view you can come up with. That is why your individual statements don't require individual responses.

 

[John Pennekamp]

Pelosi,

I am not hurling insults at you.

Read back over your own posts. All that you do is try to argue any negative view you can come up with. That is why your individual statements don't require individual responses.

Weak. I'm sure you can do better than that. Go read back over your own posts.

I may try to argue any negative view I can come up with, but at least I can form a cohesive argument. So far all you've got is telling me I'm illogical, should never have been allowed to solo, and that I'm too negative. Then telling Coopervane he's a liar. Liar, liar pants on fire! Great rebuttal if you're a first grader!

I bet you'd go all in with a pair of twos too. Please don't shoot me for saying that!!!