FFDO Training: Reloader?

[skyrider]

Trying to schedule a week for next month and heard it's a good idea to bring one along to make things easier. Is this really the case? If so, is there a particular type i.e. brand, caliber, etc to seek out?

Also, any suggestions on what else to bring along ( besides drinking money...) would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

 

[snow-back]

I think they'll take it away or at least request you don't use. Besides, your nickname would be "Sally" for the rest of the week. Not much time for beer either. Carry water to the range. They'll supply you with everything you need.

Thanks for taking your personal time and expense to do this. Good luck and have fun!

SB

 

[EagleRJ]

I don't think they allow you to use one.

You really don't need it anyway. I loaded the old-fashioned way the whole time, and never had a raw thumb. If you use the proper technique, touching the bullet only and not the magazine feed lips, you'll be fine.

Don't bring a lot of clothing. They issue you everything you need except boots, underwear and socks.

Have fun!

 

[FracCapt]

How many rounds do you go through during the training? I've been to training events where we would go through 500 rounds of handgun ammo a day, for 5-6 days...and never had a problem.

 

[FN FAL]

How many rounds do you go through during the training? I've been to training events where we would go through 500 rounds of handgun ammo a day, for 5-6 days...and never had a problem.

My wife assists me in loading a gym bag full of 20, 25, 32 and 40 round UZI magazines and we go through 1,000 rounds in a one and half to two hour shooting session. We do use small slip on mag loaders to push the rounds into the magazines...but for a split tail, she does one heck of a job. If she can show a couple of wet behind the ears jump pilots how to do the same, you guys should have no problem.

I'd worry more about the physical and psychological part of the course, than the mag loading part.

No, I'm not an FFDO...but I do own an HK USP .40 Cal, I have been certified in law enforcement and I did spend the night in a holiday inn express last night.

 

[skyrider]

Thanks Gentlemen. I appreciate the info.

 

[Swede]

FN FAL, are you using that mag loader from Vector? If so, it is a good 'un. You can zip 16 rounds in with one finger swoop.

I like using 25 rd mags for the Uzi, because they are cheap and plentiful. Sellier and Bellot 9mm boxes come divided into 2 compartments of 25 ea. I'll take a compartment, dump it on the carpet, know there's 25 there to fill up one mag. It seems to simplify things, plus S&B is cheap and effective.

 

[FN FAL]

FN FAL, are you using that mag loader from Vector? If so, it is a good 'un. You can zip 16 rounds in with one finger swoop.

I like using 25 rd mags for the Uzi, because they are cheap and plentiful. Sellier and Bellot 9mm boxes come divided into 2 compartments of 25 ea. I'll take a compartment, dump it on the carpet, know there's 25 there to fill up one mag. It seems to simplify things, plus S&B is cheap and effective.

No...we're still in the stone age. We're using those little sheet metal "one at a time" thumbusters that came with some new magazines I ordered on-line a year ago.

Yea, ammoman or one of the others has 25 rounders with the IMI star for 11.00 bucks. You can't beat that.

I picked up some of the 40 rounders that were intended for some other gun...they work well, but I hear what you are saying about 25 rounders. Easy to load, last long time, work real good.

I don't know if the FFDO program guys are allowed to bring mag loaders, but you'd think for the sanity of saving time, they wouldn't be having guys bust their thumbs loading mags.

 

[milehigh6080]

cheap 9mm

The cheapest 9mm I've found is at Walmart. Winchester makes a loose pack of 50 rounds especially for them and they sell it for under $11. I've put a good couple thousand rounds of it through my XD-9 and have never had a single malfunction with it. It's not too dirty either. If Uzi's don't require special 9mm rounds with harder primers, you might want to check it out.

Milehigh

 

[FN FAL]

The cheapest 9mm I've found is at Walmart. Winchester makes a loose pack of 50 rounds especially for them and they sell it for under $11. I've put a good couple thousand rounds of it through my XD-9 and have never had a single malfunction with it. It's not too dirty either. If Uzi's don't require special 9mm rounds with harder primers, you might want to check it out.

Milehigh

Hi milehigh6080, you may be able to get Wolf ammo for $5.00 a box for 50 rounds.

It is copper washed soft steel case ammo with some sort of laquer coating on it. I have used about 2,000 rounds through full auto guns with no ill effects. No misfires and no problems with fouling. I have about 3,000 rounds through the two guns total (various types of ammo) and have yet to clean them...no jams or other problems even with the laquer coating, which is obviously building up on the side of the bolts.

You can get 9mm wolf at any gander mountain for 4.99 a box not including taxes, or you can order it from any of these guys here on line.

I will be trying some of the wolf in the 40 cal usp soon, just to see how I like it, but I have a feeling I would rather stick with the jewish ammo I have on stock now.

That Sellier and Bellot ammo swede is talking about is probably really reasonably priced as well, I just haven't gotten around to using it yet. I think the guys are saying this Barnault ammo is good as well.

Even at 130 bucks shipped, most of the ammo that you can buy in case lots of 1,000 are pretty resonable. That's 6.50 a box.

I find that Gander Mountain is handy for when I don't want to wait...so that's why I have shot so much of the wolf. Plus, where are you going to find ammo cheaper than 4.75 a box of 50? (on one of the links its that cheap...but check your shipping prices, if shipping is included you'll never beat that price unless you steal it!)

The only thing is the steel cases aren't reloadable...

here are the links to the on-line ammo places, Coles-distributing is pretty good and fast...these others sound reputable as well...

http://www.ammunitionstore.com/pricelist_ammo4.htm#9mm

http://www.ammunitionstore.com/

http://www.ammoman.com/

http://www.coledistributing.com/

 

[Swede]

That's why I like 9mm. It's not the latest and greatest cartridge, but at $100 or so per 1,000 rounds, it's almost impossible to get any cheaper centerfire handgun ammo. I don't even think you can beat that if you load your own on a press with bulk components, unless you want to cast lead bullets on your own. Too much hassle for me!

With buckets of ammo on hand, you can practice, practice, practice and not ruin your bank account.

 

[milehigh6080]

wolf

$5.00 a box of 50?! I'm going to have to find myself some of that. Thanks for the links. I've seen Wolf ammo at gun shops before, but never those prices- I guess it's a matter of getting it online or at gun shows. Unfortunately I haven't been doing much shooting anyway lately. I've moved back to NJ where I"m originally from and shooting isn't really made easy for us here- communist dictatorships don't support armed citizens. When I lived in Florida I was able to go shooting at a range that was part of our park system- it was outdoors in the clean air and it cost me $2.50 a day, all you can shoot. That's when ammo really was my biggest expense. Now it costs something like $20 in range fees every time I go, ouch.

Milehigh

 

[Jetsetter]

I was at an indoor range the other day and every person that came in to use the range was asked if they had wolf ammo. They said that they did not allow wolf ammo.

Any idea why they were soo opposed to using wolf ?

 

[EagleRJ]

Wolf is cheap Russian junk. Even if a weapon cycles it without malfunction, it will get dirtier faster, and the lacquer may rub off in the hot breech and really muck things up. Most ranges recycle, so if they don't allow Wolf, it's because they don't want steel casings mixed in with the brass. It's the same for Blazer ammo- aluminum casings.

My wife assists me in loading a gym bag full of 20, 25, 32 and 40 round UZI magazines and we go through 1,000 rounds in a one and half to two hour shooting session.

Geeze! Is accuracy a player here, or is the primary objective just to get lead downrange?
I fired an Uzi carbine once. I'm sure it's a dandy CQB gun, but on the range against the paper, but there are a number of other guns I'd rather put 1000 rounds through.
Rock 'n' Roll is fun once in awhile, though!

 

[FN FAL]

$5.00 a box of 50?! I'm going to have to find myself some of that. Thanks for the links. I've seen Wolf ammo at gun shops before, but never those prices- I guess it's a matter of getting it online or at gun shows. Unfortunately I haven't been doing much shooting anyway lately. I've moved back to NJ where I"m originally from and shooting isn't really made easy for us here- communist dictatorships don't support armed citizens. When I lived in Florida I was able to go shooting at a range that was part of our park system- it was outdoors in the clean air and it cost me $2.50 a day, all you can shoot. That's when ammo really was my biggest expense. Now it costs something like $20 in range fees every time I go, ouch.

Milehigh

(I know we're off the subject of FFDO program, but it's probably not too cool to talk about that anyway...)

That's a sad story milehigh! It's becoming all too common as well. I think they are going to legislate shooting ranges out of existance or make it harder for them to exist in general.

It's getting to the point where even guys that want to shoot trap are being squeezed out by land owners.

I have a lot of people ask me why do I NEED silencers (suppressors), and after I explain that it's a neat thing to be able to own, that it increases safety and protects hearing at the range, the next thing I tell them is how airports are being closed because the neighbors don't like the noise. There is a correlation.

Fortunately there is town within a resonable drive of a city I visit often to see family and friends that has it's own public shooting range as a park. It only asks for donations in a can when visit. They have a two hundred yard range at least 8 lanes wide, a five hundred yard range 8 lanes wide, a pistol range with 25 and 50 yard tables and stands for archers to practice with their bows. I think it's the coolest place to visit. I like it so much I put a tarp down when I shoot so I can easily pick up after myself when I leave. If a local asks for any of the reloadable brass, I usually donate to the cause. I have so much set aside it doesn't pay to save the empties anymore and keeping the locals friendly is worth more than a couple of bucks of one shot brass.

Good luck finding a place to shoot that's resonable, I think a club is your best bet.

 

[milehigh6080]

shooting ranges

It really is a shame that it's getting harder and harder for shooting ranges to be in business. Especially the outdoor ranges which I really prefer over shooting indoors and breathing lead dust and gun powder. I'm looking into clubs around here, but even they are a little more expensive than I would expect. I guess I was just spoiled by living in a state that actually believes in the Bill of Rights. It's so hard to find reasonably priced ranges that I might just have to start practicing on liberals instead. Just kidding. . . .sorta.

Milehigh

 

[FN FAL]

Wolf is cheap Russian junk. Even if a weapon cycles it without malfunction, it will get dirtier faster, and the lacquer may rub off in the hot breech and really muck things up. Most ranges recycle, so if they don't allow Wolf, it's because they don't want steel casings mixed in with the brass. It's the same for Blazer ammo- aluminum casings.

Yea it's cheap. I don't know how the laquer affects pistols, but I do know it builds up on my bolt. Subguns get dirty quick anyway, but I don't plan on cleaning mine till they jam. Then you'll get a road report.

One thing I did notice and so did the wife, was a variance in the cyclic rate (by ear) while we were shooting wolf one time. Could have been the shellac, could have been a crapy case lot in the quality control department, who knows.

Wolf is now using a polymer to protect its cartridges, so I would like to see how that works out. I don't go to ranges where they won't let me keep my brass and I police up after I am done. As far as Blazer goes, I can't use it in the subgun because there is a chance of case rupture on account that it's an open bolt gun. Also the wolf ammo seems to get my suppressor hotter than heck and faster than I am used to seeing with cleaner ammo.

That white box stuff that milehigh said he gets from walmart is supposedly known to erode the baffles out of suppressors over time. Haven't heard the same about wolf.

If you look at some of those 9MM prices that move up the scale to the 120 to 140 per thousand, you are getting some pretty good quality and still only paying 6 to 7 dollars a box for 50. Order some and split it with friends.

Geeze! Is accuracy a player here, or is the primary objective just to get lead downrange?
I fired an Uzi carbine once. I'm sure it's a dandy CQB gun, but on the range against the paper, but there are a number of other guns I'd rather put 1000 rounds through.
Rock 'n' Roll is fun once in awhile, though!

Actually, the full sized Uzi machine gun in 9mm is more accurate than you might think. I also have a semi-auto Uzi Carbine in 9mm that I would love to put one of those cheap BSA red dot scopes on and do some coyote hunting on my friends property. Not for the magazine capacity, but for the novelty of proving the sporting use.

In an 18' carbine, I'm sure the right 9MM cartridge is excellent to 100 yards and adequate to 200 yards. You do have to rely more on placing your shot and not on stopping power with pistol caliber, semi-auto carbine. Plus, you don't have as much risk of the round carrying safely beyond where you hunt, like you do with rifle calibers like a .308, 30-30, or .30-'06.

Back when I used to work at a sporting goods store, one of my customers bagged a white tail in Wisconsin using a 9MM Uzi semi-auto carbine. He said one shot to the neck and it dropped like a sack of potatoes. Semi-auto, pump action, or lever action, pistol caliber centerfire cartrige carbines are lawful for various types of game hunting in Wisconsin.

 

[FN FAL]

It really is a shame that it's getting harder and harder for shooting ranges to be in business...It's so hard to find reasonably priced ranges that I might just have to start practicing on liberals instead. Just kidding. . . .sorta.

Milehigh

Hahaha, I get it. Practice on converting them! To enjoy shooting as a sport and hobby that is!

 

[FN FAL]

I was at an indoor range the other day and every person that came in to use the range was asked if they had wolf ammo. They said that they did not allow wolf ammo.

Any idea why they were soo opposed to using wolf ?

Yea, they didn't want to have to pick through the rounds on the floor to sort out the unreloadable steel cases that wolf is using. They probably recycle, reload or sell the brass to reloaders and don't want to go through the hassle of sorting through the empties.

 

[milehigh6080]

Hahaha, I get it. Practice on converting them! To enjoy shooting as a sport and hobby that is!

Uh . . . .yep, that's exactly what I meant! Thanks for the assist.

 

[Swede]

FN FAL, you need to try S&B. It's not the cheapest, but it's still cheap. Big thing is that it's oh-so consistent, and reasonably clean too. I prefer it to Win. white box, UMC, most other blasting ammo. I still haven't tried Wolf. I'd like to, because I don't give a hoot about the steel cases. What's an Uzi bbl cost, like $20? Just want to be sure it's reliable/consistent.

I think any ammo which squibs or isn't consistent is simply dangerous in a machine gun. Think of where your hand is located... round squibs, lodges a bullet, action cycles, next round fires. Ow. I know you're aware of this stuff.


You are one patient dude if you police all your brass after blowing 1,000 rounds downrange!

 

[Swede]

Now that we've totally jacked this thread, can anyone post links and resources to get signed up for FFDO? There's one anti-gun Capt. I really want to impress!

 

[FN FAL]

FN FAL, you need to try S&B. It's not the cheapest, but it's still cheap. Big thing is that it's oh-so consistent, and reasonably clean too. I prefer it to Win. white box, UMC, most other blasting ammo. I still haven't tried Wolf. I'd like to, because I don't give a hoot about the steel cases. What's an Uzi bbl cost, like $20? Just want to be sure it's reliable/consistent.

I think any ammo which squibs or isn't consistent is simply dangerous in a machine gun. Think of where your hand is located... round squibs, lodges a bullet, action cycles, next round fires. Ow. I know you're aware of this stuff.


You are one patient dude if you police all your brass after blowing 1,000 rounds downrange!

Yes, S&B is on the shopping list! The wife and I were discussing the grease gun conversion this morning for the full sized. Maybe Chris Wheatly's (sp?). I haven't looked, but does S&B do .45 ACP?

I'm not looking forward to my first squib...but at least in pistol calibers I won't have to commit suicide after seeing a 15,000 dollar registered M-16 lower self destruct, like some others would.

As far as policing up the spent ones...the cheap blue tarp from fleet farm does all the work...we just roll it up and walk it over to our own 5 gallon pail or to the garbage can and shake it out. Got to keep the range friendly to mass consumers or I will be forced to buy a farm just to have a place to shoot.

FFDO? heading over to google now...let you know what I find later...

 

[FN FAL]

Here's a primer...(pun intended)...

http://www.tsa.gov/public/display?theme=40&content=0900051980083738

Just do a search on google, I typed in "ffdo program" and quite a few links came up. This is their application and information site.

What is your anti-gun captain's problem with Swede, guns in general or the FFDO program?

 

[Tripower455]

I have not had good experience with Wolf rifle ammo.... I bought some 5.56 to use in my AR, and it was very inconsistent in charge round to round, and whatever the F&$$ they use for case lube gummed up the chamber of my AR but good. Whatever propellent they use is nasty as well (smells horrible and dirtys up EVERYTHING in the gun! I have owned this rifle since 1986, and it has NEVER jammed in any way shape or form with factory ammo, until I used Wolf. IMHO, Wolf is fine for the loose chambered guns like AK's, SKS' (or any of the other ComBloc weapons designed around this ammo), subguns, some pistols etc., but anything else, I won't use it.

Just my $.02+

I would also be leery about using any steel cased ammo in a gun with a fixed extractor (like a 1911), since it relies somewhat on the "give" in the brass rim for extractor tension. Years ago, I broke an extractor on my .45 using WWII vintage steel cased stuff that a friend gave me (it was also mildly corrosive, as I found out ! ) . That free ammo cost me about $100 in '86, when I really couldn't afford it!

YMMV, but I'll pay the extra $1.00 or so a box.

Most military surplus ammo is good, depending on the caliber, age, condition and county of origin. I shoot nothing but milsurp in my FALS, and ARs and sometimes my FN Hi Power (I got some real nice South African surplus 9mm real cheap a few years back), and have never had any issues whatsoever. Load up, shoot and maybe clean afterwards. And it's not too much more expensive than the Wolf. I don't think I've even cleaned the HP since I've been using this stuff, and it's got about 1500 rds of this SA stuff through it.

The S&B as Swede suggests is GREAT ammo..... I use it in most all of my pistols, and is one of the few, current production cartridges that will function properly in my Title 2, M-2 Carbine. I suspect that SAAMI has lowered the allowable pressures on commercial .30 Carbine loads, due to the mean age of these guns. I was having fits trying to get more than 2-3 shots fired in FA (short cycling with a classic stovepipe) using the various generic brands (Win USA, UMC, Federal red box) when I found 500 rounds of '50's vintage LC surplus, that functioned FLAWLESSLY, with a noticeable difference in report and recoil. This is not unique to my Carbine either. I have video of 3 of us firing M-2s at the same time, me using my reloads, and the other guys using USA. I got through 2 30 round mags way before those guys got through 1. Both were stovepiping every 2-3 shots with Win. USA.

I've also had good results with MagTech for clean yet cheap blasiting ammo.


As far as the reloader for the FFDO training.... not necessary, or so I've been told. They will probably let you use it, but, imho, it won't save any time, and (I've heard) that the H&K mags aren't too bad on the thumb, especially the well used range mags that I've heard they use for training. I imagine that they will practically load themselves, unlike some sub gun mags that take about 100 lbs of pressure to get the last few rounds in!

I've also heard that the FFDO training is actually kind of fun, so, enjoy it!

(Say hi to W.T. when you get there.....)

 

[Swede]

Tripower, you've made some very valid observations. I think if I had a valuable, gas-operated firearm, I'd spend the extra $$ for clean, consistent ammo. I do think Wolf will be fine for any open-bolt gun like an Uzi or Sten. These guns are made to function in the most horrible conditions imaginable, and are stout. Best part is that replacement barrels and maybe an extractor are so cheap as to be nearly freebies. But yes I can see a dirty cartrdge being a detriment to a gas weapon. AR barrels, extractors, etc. aren't cheap either.

Maybe the "new" wolf polymer coating will make a difference, at least with chamber gunking.

FN FAL thanks for the FFDO lookup. The Capt in question is simply a dude who is afraid of guns, thinks some judo move is all we need when 4 well-trained, lean, and dangerous terrorists bust down the door.

My vision of a safe cockpit includes a mini-uzi clamped to the wall right next to the crash axe and the fire extinguisher. Pilots each carry two 25rd mags in their kitbag, right next to the SiG handgun in their bag's side pocket.

 

[avbug]

I don't use aluminum cases on the principle (blazer is now out in brass), due to the inability to reuse the cases.

I don't shoot steel cases due to extractor wear.

Wolf has changed the lacquer used on the cases, but they're still steel. Steel scratches your chamber, and wears your extractor. Older wolf ammo did build up in the chamber, especially in the AR series of weapons.

In my AR weapons, I fire only Federal X193 55 grain. With different twist rates for barrels, SS109 isn't a bad choice, though I haven't found anything better, especially in military chambers (not .223) better than the federal round. It's all Lake City components, and that's definitely a plus.

As for excessive penetration with subweapons, .223 has far less public risk or overpenetration risk, especially in urban engagements, than 9mm. If you're talking home defense, 5.56/.223 is far less risky for overpenetration, especially in building structures, wallboard, etc, than 9mm. It's for that reason that many tactical teams have gone back to AR's and A4's instead of the ubiquitous MP5 (still and outstanding firearm).

Who pays sixteen thousand for a registered M16? That's far beyond reasonable.

Reloader? You're kidding. Right?