FedEx Seat Bid BIG (Part2...since some [Moderator] moved it to Cargo)

[New FDX Guy]

Anybody have the numbers where the F/O slots went in the practice bid?

Thanks.
Go Eagles!

 

[Goose17]

The most junior guy

The most junior 727 FO slot in the practice bid went to a guy who is in new hire class right now. He started Jan 24th!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Goose17

 

[klhoard]

So Goose, why did it take you so long to get into the right seat??

 

[TonyC]

The most junior 727 FO slot in the practice bid went to a guy who is in new hire class right now. He started Jan 24th!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Goose17

Number 1 guy in the new class got the last FO slot in the MD-11 at ANC.


Most junior widebody Capt: 2401 MD-11 MEM

Most junior 727 Capt: 3486

Most junior widebody FO: 4313 (Newhire) MD-11 ANC

Most junior 727 FO: 4324 (Newhire, tail-end charlie)



And I go from 92% in my seat to 82%


Well, that's the practice, anyway.


Looks like my guess was off by 222 numbers... Los1 was only 33 off - - he wins the free coffee. Meet me in the AOC!

 

[PastV1]

Most junior MD-11 F/O MEM was hired late summer/early fall 2004.


Past.......

 

[psysicx]

How accurate is the practice bid?

 

[TonyC]

How accurate is the practice bid?

They are notoriously inaccurate.

 

[Los1]

TonyC-

lets go double or nothing on the actual bid...
my first guess stands
Los1

 

[Goose17]

Its nice to see movement

Guys like me were stuck on the panel pushing 3 years. That is a LONG time! Guys in the early 90s were stuck there longer, but in more recent history, newhires were back there for about 8 months to 1.5 years. It looks like we are back to those numbers and probably favoring the 8 months side of the range.

The panel is a great place to get a foot in the door with the company. Especially for mil guys like me... it is a good (somewhat passive) place to learn civilian flying, learn the company, and learn the plane. That said, beyond the 1st year to include multiple winter walk-arounds, it starts getting painfull. You get all the sh!t duty for the least pay, but it really is difficult to complain when so many of your peers are on the streets.

It is good to see movement for all, including the new hires! It looks like any new 727 S/O won't be stuck there too long (unless they choose to for seniority). Keep stamping out the new guys!

Now we just need a contract!

Goose17

 

[TonyC]

TonyC-

lets go double or nothing on the actual bid...
my first guess stands
Los1

Throw in popcorn and you're on!

I'm goin' with 2349 for the WB Captain.


I'm also bettin' they'll choose NOT to fill all the secondaries in the ANC FO slots, so the guys in the newhire class won't be able to reach it.



.

 

[active_herk]

Junior guy in last class at FedEx - 4324

Junior ANC MD-11 F/O on practice bid - 4313

Talk about some quick movement! (Although I am inclined to believe TonyC...I don't think the company is going to want guys that junior in the MD-11)

There could also be some major changes in the actual bid.

 

[PurpleTail]

The practice bids carry absolutely no weight whatsoever. I don't even know why the company even bothers. At least there is only one practice bid now instead of two. All I know is that I'm going to be a heck of a lot more senior in MEM than I am in LA.

I'm still in shock though that a new hire can hold a WB MD11 award, EVEN IF IT IS JUST A PRACTICE BID, and the caboose gets a 72 right seat spot. I also second TonyC's prediction that ANC secondaries will be reduced.

Now I see why the company wants to break out the pay per aircraft, it would definately realign things.

 

[Mr Zog]

Food for thought, when we had the big Postal Bid at the end of 2000/beginning of 2001. There where initial new hires still in training that were awarded MD-11 seats in both MEM and ANC. So this is not something new to the company. Has the company not filled all the secondary vacancies in ANC before? YES. Either way I think there will be a clean up bid prior to the most junior individuals going to training (so they will end up holding it then, if not now). This training cycle, in my opinion, will take over one year.

 

[altscap]

With all the slots you guys have opening up, any ideas on getting an interview without having to offer up my mothers left kidney??

 

[Mr Zog]

As far as breaking up the pay. That poses some interesting dilemmas. Do DC-10 crewmbers make the same as MD-11/MD-10? MD-10 and DC-10 are the same plane, basically. If so then shouldn't the Airbus guys get the same pay as the DC-10 guys since they are both basically domestic, both are widebodies, and payloads are very comparable? Now we are back to the same pay rates. Or do MD-11 lines get payed differently than MD-10 lines? What an accounting nightmare... My opinion, if the company wants senior people to fly the MD-11 international routes, pay a higher international override. To me that solves the problem the easiest way. Now when the 380 comes on property that is a different story. I say $380 for Captain of the A-380.

 

[TonyC]

As far as breaking up the pay. That poses some interesting dilemmas. Do DC-10 crewmbers make the same as MD-11/MD-10? MD-10 and DC-10 are the same plane, basically. If so then shouldn't the Airbus guys get the same pay as the DC-10 guys since they are both basically domestic, both are widebodies, and payloads are very comparable? Now we are back to the same pay rates. Or do MD-11 lines get payed differently than MD-10 lines? What an accounting nightmare... My opinion, if the company wants senior people to fly the MD-11 international routes, pay a higher international override. To me that solves the problem the easiest way. Now when the 380 comes on property that is a different story. I say $380 for Captain of the A-380.

I don't know if you've noticed, but the DC-10/MD-11 is a bit larger than the other "widebody" in our fleet, the Airbus. What Jack Lewis would like to see is a progression from SO to 727 FO to A300 FO to MD-11/DC-10 FO to 727 Capt to A300 Capt to MD-11 Capt. I know that's what he wants because he told the entire MD-11 Flex Instructor group that we should counsel pilots to progress in that order. HA!


Right now there is no pay distinction to separate the Airbus from the MD-11. If he wants progression in that order, he needs to pay more on the MD-11. Further, if he wants guys to leave the comfort of the MD-11 right seat to command a slave ship, there needs to be a more significant pay differential. As it is, most guys would rather work 2 extra days in the electric jet than live a life of 5-leg nights of hubturns.

Short of dictating through contractual language a specific order of seat progression (something I do not think will ever happen) the only was to achieve the desired flow is to build a money trail. Show me the money. If he wants guys to take a stab at 727 Captain before they Captain big iron, raise the rates. If he wants the most experienced pilots manning the MD-11s, raise the rates. Want the most-senior Captains on the MD-11? Raise the rates, and watch the older guys flock trying to build their high five.

The second major factor that has to be examined is scheduling. Who wants to go to Anchorage? Well, apparently not enough of the 4324 pilots to fill the slots without dipping into the new hire class. ANC has a reputation of getting rotten lines that are not commuter friendly. Every pilot up there has a story of a screwed-up trip where they had a Memphis RFO along on a primo pairing. Every pilot has seen bidpack comparisons between Memphis flying and Anchorage flying. Deadheads, days off, live legs - - you name the statistic, the ANC pilot takes it on the chin every single month. Bang 'em over the head long enuogh, and they'll finally give up, and leave the flying to someone more junior. How do we fix that? Fix the schedules. It's not the location -- the location is great. It's not the commute -- the commute is tolerable. It's not the people -- the people are THE best. It's the schedules, and they can be fixed in ONE month. You want to attract senior people to ANC? Build them schedules worth commuting to.

 

[ilinipilot]

I have a question. Why would you want a progression as vast as S/O to F/O to F/O to F/O to F/O then to CPT to CPT to CPT.

I know it gets more senior people in the bigger planes but that is a lot of training and a lot of moneyspent training. I know they are making money hand over fist but that is a lot to spend.

Just wondering

 

[yahoo]

Holy passover pay Batman!

I had heard about the widebody captain numbers...had no idea about all the F/O slots we needed too (on top of the secondaries). With all the secondary vacancies opening up...I don't think I'll have a problem pushing my Airbus training date back to the end of 05...

Assuming someone will be willing to swap...

Fly Safe!
FastCargo

Do I take this to mean that there is bypass pay? If you don't bid for something, and someone below you gets the bid, surely you don't get bumped up to their pay?? ( and stop calling me shirley) In other words, the payscales are just that....what year you're in and where you're sitting in ?? airplane, that's what you're getting paid, period?

 

[TonyC]

I have a question. Why would you want a progression as vast as S/O to F/O to F/O to F/O to F/O then to CPT to CPT to CPT.

I know it gets more senior people in the bigger planes but that is a lot of training and a lot of moneyspent training. I know they are making money hand over fist but that is a lot to spend.

Just wondering

First, it's not MY desire, it's the desire of the SCP, and apparently some higher than him. Second, you answered your own question - - it gets more senior people in the bigger planes.

A quick look at the accident history of this company reveals that we've lost more MD-11s than 727s. An easy finger to point is seniority. Frankly, I believe that some of our newhires are more adept at flying the MD-11 than the older guys, based on their experience with glass cockpits and FMS environments. It's certainly easier to train a young guy that's excited about his fortune in life and has some background in glass, than it is to train some grumpy old guy that finally decided to switch to the MD-11 because his favorite pairing changed from a DC-10 to an MD-11 - - now spoonfeed me, will ya?

The one thing that newhires lack, in many cases, is the 121 experience or the FedEx corporate indoctrination. For that, I believe a few months on a panel is a great experience for a guy. After that, pick a seat and go for it. Sitting in the right seat of the Boeing does very little, in my opinion, to mature a pilot in our system. It'll AGE him, to be sure, but maturing is another concept entirely.

You've also pointed out the irony in what "they" want. They want us to progress in steps, but they don't want to have to pay for training. Can we just agree to not waste our time discussing how stupid that is?

 

[TonyC]

Do I take this to mean that there is bypass pay? If you don't bid for something, and someone below you gets the bid, surely you don't get bumped up to their pay?? ( and stop calling me shirley) In other words, the payscales are just that....what year you're in and where you're sitting in ?? airplane, that's what you're getting paid, period?

Roger, Roger.

We call it Passover Pay, and there are a limited number of circumstances where it is paid. As long as pilot has listed a particular seat position on his Standing Bid preferences, if a pilot junior to him also bids that seat, is awarded that seat, is trained in that seat, and is activated in that seat, THEN the more senior pilot would receive Passover Pay. There is a limited number of circumstances where the Company may see that as advantageous.

For example, the senior pilot is currently in the 727 FO seat where the company is short. The junior pilot is currently in the DC-10 SO seat where the company is fat. They both bid and are awarded MD-11 FO. The company decides it is better to keep the 727 FO flying in that seat while they train the DC-10 SO. To compensate for the training out of seniority order, they would pay the 727 FO the MD-11 FO rate as soon as the DC-10 SO checked out as an MD-11 FO. According to the latest message from the SCP, they have paid Passover Pay as long as 18 months.

 

[PurpleTail]

How could scheduling improve the trips/schedules in ANC?? It is already an all international trip base? None of those guys want to fly to the lower 48 and 75% of their flying is to the Pacific Rim.

The company could easily make ANC more commutable though, that is the one thing that has gone downhill over the past couple years. And even though it an established base the company could also help pay for a relocation package for a couple dozen pilots. If you offered a relocation package with the same restricitions as SFS then guys would stick around longer up there too. It wouldn't have to be 100%...but lets say 50%..that would at least cushion the blow and get more guys up there.

I just looked at ANC Open Time and it is LOADED with easy RFO trips while LAX has nothing but crap O/B trips, explains why everyone is leaving LAX for MEM.

 

[Mr Zog]

Tony C,


By making the MD-11 pay higher you aren't going to get senior guys at ANC. You are going to get senior guys flying the MD-10 lines from MEM-ATL (which they already have). Now you make international override, lets say for sake of arguement, $20 to $25 or even higher. Then all of a sudden being based in ANC is a 20% pay raise for a first officer (every trip out o ANC gets international override). You don't think ANC would become a little bit more senior then? With the mix of fleet type in the MD-11, I just don't see how you can differentiate pay between the MD-11 and DC-10. But I am just a line slug. What do I know.

 

[New FDX Guy]

How does upgrading work? I'm still assuming all us new guys will be going to the back of the Boeing, even with the interesting numbers of the PB. If after a few months I am senior(couldn't think of a better word) enough to bid F/O do I just raise my hand and it happens or do I have to wait for one of these big bids?

Also, what's RFO?

Thanks bretheren!

 

[PurpleTail]

Also, what's RFO?

Thanks bretheren!

Boy, you are a pointy nose pilot (no offense, sorry)

RFO is Relief First Officer. On international trip over 8 hrs block you need one extra crewmember for proper rest during a long flight/duty day...over 12 hrs of block and you need two RFO's...Per the FAR's.

Just out of curiosity NEW FDX GUY what year do you plan on retiring?? I'm guessing about 2035?

Hope this helps, welcome aboard.

 

[klhoard]

To upgrade you need to hold a training date from a standing bid. Once you're awarded a training date, then you can try to swap dates with someone else, or you can send an e-mail to drop it if you don't want to upgrade.
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That's what Jack was talking about; bid what you want to fly and don't worry about the secondary stuff. You'll see some guys go into long calculus based prognostications about bidding a particular seat so they'll get passover pay or whatever and then some day finally end up in the seat they really want to be in all the while "getting over" on the system.
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Just like the stock market, don't try to time it. You will never predict what 4300 other pilots will do or what they're thinking, especially during the practice bids. During the postal contract bid there was an ANC Captain that kept bidding 727 S/O in the two practice bids. A lot of pilots play games like that, then change their mind at 1459Z on bid closing day.
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RFO - Relief Flight Officer. RFO is the third or fourth pilot put on a trip that is scheduled to block over 8 or 12 hours flight time. Also known as the "Food Beeatch", the RFO(s) has several critical duties that are absolutely essential to mission accomplishment on these long-haul international revenue trips. When two RFO's are assigned to a trip, teamwork and precise coordination of duties between the two RFO's are something that must be seen to be appreciated. . . . brings a tear to my eye just thinking about it. . . .

 

[New FDX Guy]

Boy, you are a pointy nose pilot (no offense, sorry)

None taken, my aircraft doesn't even have an ILS. I was deathly afraid that at some point during my interview they would say, "So, you're a single seat guy in an airplane that doesn't fly GPS or ILS approaches...we have no use for you."

2035, I'll turn 63 that year, so as long as they don't up it aging, yes. Nice guess, you must be one of those calculus guys klhoard was talking about.

Thanks guys

 

[Goose17]

Most junior 727 captain

I got a private message requesting when the most junior guy holding left seat of the 727 on the practice bid was hired:

Dec 00!

Goose17

 

[NightFlyer]

I really don't see what the big deal is with having a new guy going to the right seat of the MD11. There are other companies that hire into the right seat of the DC10 and MD11. The MD11 is not that hard to fly or learn and most of the guys coming aboard have glass experience anyway. Then again, they don't pay me to make those decisions.

NightFlyer

 

[active_herk]

Roger, Roger.

We call it Passover Pay, and there are a limited number of circumstances where it is paid. As long as pilot has listed a particular seat position on his Standing Bid preferences, if a pilot junior to him also bids that seat, is awarded that seat, is trained in that seat, and is activated in that seat, THEN the more senior pilot would receive Passover Pay. There is a limited number of circumstances where the Company may see that as advantageous.

For example, the senior pilot is currently in the 727 FO seat where the company is short. The junior pilot is currently in the DC-10 SO seat where the company is fat. They both bid and are awarded MD-11 FO. The company decides it is better to keep the 727 FO flying in that seat while they train the DC-10 SO. To compensate for the training out of seniority order, they would pay the 727 FO the MD-11 FO rate as soon as the DC-10 SO checked out as an MD-11 FO. According to the latest message from the SCP, they have paid Passover Pay as long as 18 months.

One stipulation if I may. The senior 727 FO will accrue passover pay once the DC-10 SO is checked out, and won't actually get paid the passover pay until he (the 727 FO) gets checked out in the new seat position. The reason for this is because if the 727 FO decides not to go to training (i.e. another bid comes out before the 727 FO goes to training and he decides to bid to something else), or if he doesn't make it through traingiing, then all the passover pay that he has accrued will vanish and not be paid. As you can see, when he does get paid the passover pay, it can make for a pretty big paycheck!

 

[psysicx]

Why wouldn't somebody want ANC.If your from the northwest the commute shouldn't be to bad.Plus there all international if thats what you like.