FBI acknowledges mystery flights

[TMMT]

No Conspiracy!

What happened at Waco was horrifying to say the least, needless lives were lost on both sides of the equation and both are to blame.

The Davidians for not answering the original subpoena and criminal complaints and the ATF for the piss poor attempt at grandstanding.

It is well known the AFT had notified the news media the night before that there was to be a “big raid” the next day gave them the addy and even the show time. The tip was from the head ATF agent who coordinated the raid to a producer at CNN. When the AFT arrived that morning the Davidians were well aware of the impending raid due to the sizable encampment of reporters complete with satellite trucks camped just outside the front gate.

How else do you think the media was able to film all those cattle trailers rolling down that dusty road on that fateful morning?

How else do you think the media was able to be there when TSHTF and grab all those clips of ATF agents being gunned down?

It was all well documented during the subsequent Congressional hearings that much of the blame did indeed lay at the feet of the ATF et al… but the true catalyst for the entire scenario laid at the feet of the Davidians themselves.


There is no conspiracy, just stupidity that resulted in this nightmare.

TMMT

 

[captainv]

ATF

TMMT,

True, the ATF made some questionable choices with regard to media coverage and even tactics on the day of the big raid.

But then, do you think the ATF commander honestly expected to face .50-caliber fire on his agents???? OK, so the ATF was guilty of trying to get some PR on a big bust that instead went horribly wrong (the Davidians' choice).

the Davidians are guilty of murdering federal agents executing a legal raid. (if they wanted to protest the legality of the raid, thats what judges get paid to decide) the ATF and the FBI waited for months to work out a peaceful solution. when the decision was made to go in, armored vehicles pumped tear gas into the compound. TEAR GAS - it irritates, it doesn't kill people.

the Davidians then chose to set fire to the structure and forensic evidence proves that many Davidian children were shot in the head at close range with a handgun. The Davidians chose to murder their own children.

yes, mistakes were made on both sides. now, who do you think deserves most of the blame?

 

[TMMT]

Re: ATF

TMMT,



But then, do you think the ATF commander honestly expected to face .50-caliber fire on his agents????

The AFT had extensive knowledge of what they were getting into, they had one agent undercover within the compound who detailed all the firepower inside to the ATF and who, himself set up a meeting with two more undercover ATF agents will Koresh just days before the raid.

The man’s name is Robert Rodriguez, ATF Undercover Agent who was placed inside the compound. He testified before Congress that not only did he tell ATF field Commanders of the potential of disaster if the chose to use a dynamic raid, but he detailed all of the weaponry he saw too.

He told them of speeches Koresh routinely gave detailing just such a battle and how the Davidians should react. No wonder the Congressional hearings proved that it was indeed the Davidians that go the jump on the ATF and not vice-a-versa.

http://www.cnn.com/2000/LAW/07/columns/fl.wisenberg.waco.07.20/

The ATF tried many stories to justify their FUBAR, from getting the military involved under the counter narcotics military assistance rules. They tried to fly the story to JTF-6 of a methamphetamine laboratory being on the premises.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/wacopentagon990803.html

Even remember some blurb about child abuse, which in all likelihood would have been true all things considered.

What the Davidians did was wrong I agree, but I also believe that if cooler heads had prevailed and folks at ATF had of stepped back and analyzed the information as a whole they would have saw that a dynamic raid on this compound was suicide.

There are a million news articles that lay out the case that the ATF while acting under color of law, acted with the grace and stupidity of a whooping crane on crack.

Here’s another article from ABCNews that clearly states that most Law Enforcement Officials believe the Army’s Delta Force had a hand in this nightmare as well.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/waco990827.html

The whole thing stunk from start to finish.

I’ll let you respond then I saw we call it before this thing turns into a whizzing match over who has the bigger conspiracy.

I believe we both agree it was wrong and that the Davidians could have averted the whole thing, it’s just a matter of how we feel about the ATF that is in question,

Regards
TMMT

 

[captainv]

ATF

TMMT,


>>I believe we both agree it was wrong and that the Davidians could have averted the whole thing, it’s just a matter of how we feel about the ATF that is in question,

agreed. the ATF and the Davidians made miscalculations of equal caliber.

and i appreciate the links you found. time permitting, i could find you articles from flagship papers (NYT, Wash Post, L.A. times) that alternate viewpoints. i.e. that it was ATF's fault, it was the Davidians fault, ATF was blindsided, or ATF knew of the danger but went in anyway, etc.

one of the faults of modern journalism is that stories more often report different viewpoints of an event, rather than what really happened. the papers all talked to Davidians after the event, and reported stories detailing their views about what happened. another reporter would do a sit-down with the ATF command team, and have a story with their perspective. then the pentagon reporter would file a piece on how Pentagon brass "think" Delta force had a hand in things. there's no proof mind you, that would take some real work - and besides, you'd never get an official document saying Delta Force did this or that. it's enough to report that some people think they had a hand in it and leave it at that. i wouldn't be at all surprised if Delta was consulted for their thoughts, but Delta teams operating against U.S. citizens on U.S. soil? it'll take more than supposition to hook me on that one.

it's not uncommon to have a breaking story and get three totally different takes on it from the powerhouse papers. it all depends on who their reporters talked to. and i speak from experience, having spent 4 years in the newspaper biz.

i guess what it comes down to for me is intent. if not for the Davidians' illegal activities, the ATF never would've been there. the ATF could've handled the raid much better, possibly saving the lives of most of the Davidians had they gone another route. but the fact remains the ATF went in there because a bunch of zealots had military-grade weaponry and wouldn't give it up. the Davidians could've surrendered peacefully at any time, but they chose not to. they decided to open fire on federal agents executing a legal search, misguided as it may have been. and they were the ones who decided to take their own lives in the end, and to murder their children as a final act. it was almost a case of suicide by police.

anyway, that the view from my side of the fence. i certainly hope the government handles it better next time, but i fully support their right to go in after people like this.

i've enjoyed the debate, but we're pretty far off topic so let's let it end here.

Regards,
Captainv

 

[flywithastick]

Hey, Capt - I haven't had my "shot" back at you. Not going to close the debate just yet.

You seem to be putting off the references listed above as slanted. How about reading some of them. You really seem to be arguing your point with no backup, as I see it.

BTW - what's military grade weaponry? I own a 12 ga shotgun... believe the military has used those on occasion. Is mil grade weaponry like an Assault Rifle?! Sounds like media hype words. last I checked, owning AR-15s, mini 14's, etc isn't illegal. Does that matter?

Since you seem to be so confident in your understanding of the situation as Waco, then how do you account for the FBI's shooting of Randy Weaver's wife (in the neck while holding her baby) at Ruby Ridge? Probably deserved it - right?

http://www.cnn.com/2001/LAW/06/14/ruby.ridge.02/

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment-lynch082102.asp

Forgot to mention the trust and warmth that other fed police have generated with the handling persons such as Elain Gonzales.

http://wire.ap.org/APpackages/sequence_pix/photos/seq3.jpg

I'm sure there are a lot of good people working in these groups. But committing these crimes and then covering up and obstructing others investigating these events has really turned my opinion negative of almost all federal police groups. I used to be a blind supporter of the Jack-Booted Thugs. Then I actually started reading and listening. Suggest you do the same captV, VivaZapata - Sport Illustrated doesn't count though.

http://www.cato.org/dailys/09-08-99.html?FACTNet

CaptV - You mention the children in the compound were shot by their own. Give me one source where this is documented (excluding the FBI or other fed police source). You can't because there's no info backing up this claim. If any kids were shot, it was by the FBI shooting into the buildings as they burned.

Ever hear of a guy named Carlos Ghigliotti? I doubt it. He was an infra red video expert who was retained by the House Panel investigating the shooting during the fire. Well - funny thing, he was prepared to testify that the FBI was shooting tinto the buildings as they burned. He turned up murdered in April 2000, before being able to testify.

http://www.alamo-girl.com/03604.htm

why'd the FBI use CS gas on little kids? What would that stuff do to a little kid? been documented to be lethal to kids in the quantities used at Waco, as testified by the FBI afterwards. Not to mention the possibility of incindiary CS grenades catching the wood frame building on fire.

BTW, VivaZapata - its the COUNCIL on Foreign Relations, and the Trilateral Commission is *not* associated with the UN. You really should read a little more. and no - they don't have the United States' best interest in mind.

http://www.cfr.org/

http://trilateral.org:9999/

You forgot about the Bilderbergs. ever hear of this group?

Why couldn't the FBI (and BATF) just wait them out? Why raid the complex in the first place. It's a very known fact that Koresh went into Waco many, many times. Why not arrest him there? Why - they wanted a shootout.

Hopefully, the fed police have learned and this won't ever happen again.

happy flying

 

[captainv]

FBI

Flywithastick,

i'm in the middle of a trip at the moment, but i'll dig up some references of my own when i get back, just give me a day or so. TMMT had expressed a desire to let it go, so i didn't bother.

quickly though, by military hardware i was thinking of the .50-cals the Davidians used on ATF in the initial raid. i fully support your right to own a shotgun, AR-15, or whatever else is legal. the day Congress makes owning a machine gun legal, i'll support your right to own that too, but for now they're considered military hardware.

as for Ruby Ridge, whole new can of worms there. on the government side, one of the main problems was the SAC's improper rules of engagement. Lon Horiuchi, the FBI sniper, was later cleared as he was operating within those rules. unfortunately, Weaver moved as the shot was fired, and Weaver's pregnant wife was tragically killed by accident. the SAC was ultimately held responsible. Horiuchi was devastated by what happened... And while everyone remember's the tragic death of Weaver's wife, who remembers the U.S. Marshall who was murdered by Weaver's sons before the standoff as he tried to serve a warrant?

both are examples of government bungling to spectacular degrees. but in both cases deadly force was initiated by the suspects. why is their behavior never brought up in these debates??

again, i'll do some digging when i get back.

captainv

 

[flywithastick]

other side of the story - Ruby Ridge

the day Congress makes owning a machine gun legal, i'll support your right to own that too, but for now they're considered military hardware.

and legal to own and operate, if properly licensed.

unfortunately, (Randy) Weaver moved as the shot was fired, and Weaver's pregnant wife was tragically killed by accident.

She moved?! the professional aimed the weapon, pulled the trigger and killed the mans wife. "Sorry Mr. Weaver, we were really trying to shoot you in cold blood - but we, er, shot your wife accidentally!" IMO, this was vengence against Weaver for the death of the Marshall.

the SAC was ultimately held responsible.

What's a SAC? you an insider? now I see why you're defending these actions! Anyone doing the shooting or in command get fired? do any jail time? Nope! AFAIK, the only punnishment dealt was for the subsequent cover up attempt.

And while everyone remember's the tragic death of Weaver's wife, who remembers the U.S. Marshall who was murdered by Weaver's sons before the standoff as he tried to serve a warrant?

That's terrible. He didn't deserve to die. But they were all "high" on the situation, I believe. They were there to serve a warrant based on trumped up charges, no less. Also - why were they wearing masks and camo?! Who's the enemy here, capt?! Wearing that "uniform" and armed as they were, I can only assume is that the Marshalls were going in to shoot up the place. More vengence for Weaver due to his refusal to be an govt informant.

Being an apparent insider, then you know quite well how his son was killed. don't sugar coat it! The kid was shot in the back as he ran away. The Marshall shot the kids dog and I'm convinced he didn't ID himself first - warrant or not. Someone dressed up like a gun toting Ninja shot the kids dog. With that kind of emotional, scarry situation, I'm not suprised the kid shot back. Who are the trained professionals here anyway? They have the burden of doing the right thing.

both are examples of government bungling to spectacular degrees. but in both cases deadly force was initiated by the suspects.

Apparently dressed up like 10 yr old Ninja wannabes, the cops shot the kid's, I mean suspect's, dog. *They* fired first.

why is their behavior never brought up in these debates??

because the cops are supposedly *trained professionals*. They have the burden of proof and a standard of excellence to uphold. It's for them to do the right thing and the smart thing. They did neither.

JUST like Waco - most of the violence was all about vengence. Vengence by a bunch of gun toting, soldier wannabes with a volunteer fireman mentality. Sorry VFD guys - but a few have been known to start fires just so they could run with the lights and use the equipment.

Capt, I wish you well with your flying. We obviously see this differently. If your have some credible info of another scenario - I'm all ears. My point in countering your post was just to hopefully inform those reading this and not familiar with the other side of the story and prevent it from happening again.

 

[captainv]

FBI

flywithastick,

OK, first things first. I'm not an insider per se, although i do have an inherent bias in support of the FBI.

I am, as advertised, a First Officer for a regional airline. My brother is an FBI Special Agent, although he joined in 1997 and has no connection to either of the incidents we're discussing. Like most FBI agents, he spends 98% of his time as a police detective might, interviewing witnesses/suspects, examining crime scenes, testifying at trials, etc... Another agent we know spent over 30 years in the Bureau and in that career pulled his weapon in the line of duty a grand total of four times. Like the vast majority of agents, he has never fired a round in the line of duty.

What frustrates all of us is this perception that the FBI/ATF/fill in the blank, is some kind of rogue police group, killing U.S. citizens out of revenge or bloodlust. On the contrary, if you were to spend a day at your local FBI office, i think you'd find one of the most intelligent, compassionate, patriotic groups of people you'd ever met.

That said, I'm not naive enough to believe every agent is like that. Just like there are bad cops, there are bad agents. What i disagree with in these two cases is the overall perception that the ATF/FBI went in there looking for blood. i.e. "Vengence by a bunch of gun toting, soldier wannabes with a volunteer fireman mentality." are there agents or even commanders that fit this description? absolutely. but that's why there is a chain of command. it's not their decision. in the case of Waco, Attorney General Janet Reno had the final say. at Ruby Ridge, honestly, i don't know who had the final authority. i do recall that the SAC (Special Agent in Charge) established rules of engagement that violated FBI rules.

In both cases, they were attempting to confront highly armed extremist groups that were extremely hostile towards ATF/FBI. You suggest ATF/FBI brought an attack upon themselves for wearing body armor/camo. I agree it didn't do anything to help the situation, but it would've been lunacy for them to knock on the front door in a suit and tie with a six-shot revolver on their belts. The philosophy is to provide maximum protection to the agents in a hostile situation. the whole idea behind SWAT-type teams is to overwhelm the suspect(s) with superior firepower/manpower. if the suspect(s) would give us peacefully, we wouldn't need such teams. and even so, the primary objective is to use smoke/tear gas/flashbangs etc to incapacitate the suspect and resolve the situation peacefully.

again, i am not trying to excuse what happened at both Waco and Ruby Ridge. Both are horrible tragedies. But was ATF/FBI justified in trying to resolve these situations? Yes. did they do it the right way? Dear God no, as we all can see. both groups were facing serious charges and were considered armed and dangerous. if they thought the charges against them were baseless, they should have argued their case in front of a judge. that's how our society works. on the government side, the mistakes and miscalculations were tragic and inexcusable. yes, the government tried to cover up its mistakes, and like most cover-ups, it was exposed.

one caveat i need to make: what originally got me going on this tangent was your assertion that "the FBI has already demonstrated their expertise at activities like shooting, gassing and burning kids, e.g., Waco."

i countered that in fact it was the Davidians that shot the children in the final moments.

in fact, we're both wrong. i did find references to @ 20 Davidians that died from gunshot wounds rather than the fire (including Koresh) in the Washington Post article, among others, but there was no mention that any of them were children.

i'll end with a bunch of different links. some support my assertions, some support yours. most do both. as a former journalist, the least i can do is try to provide both sides. i have my opinions, and i respect yours. as you say, we have different views and so we must agree to disagree. for everyone else, i encourage you to read whatever you can and make up your own mind.

one last thing, i don't have a link for it, but i'd encourage you to read a book called No Heroes, by Danny Coulson. Coulson is the man who created HRT, the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team. He was involved with both Waco and Ruby Ridge, but don't let that color your impression of him until you read his book. i think you'd be surprised at how critical he was of what happened... you should be able to find it at a local library....

Regards,
CaptainV

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/primary.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/w...ode=&contentId=A99409-1995Jul18&notFound=true

http://www.cnn.com/2000/US/07/21/waco.investigation.03/index.html

http://www.cnn.com/2000/LAW/07/14/waco.verdict.02/index.html

http://www.cnn.com/US/9909/25/wacos.dark.questions/index.html

http://www.time.com/time/daily/newsfiles/waco/

http://www.dallasnews.com/dmn/news/stories/022703dntexwacoraid.1fcd7.html